Glenville or Ginn Academy?
- Thread starter Crimson and Black
- Start date
World breaker hulk 282
Active member
Rumor has it majority of transfers including the quarterback and Benedictine transfers have to sit second half of season! Is this true? Call me shocked! OHSAA is looking into something? Not just taking gate money and paying family members they give jobs to!
Calif_Eagle
Well-known member
Reading thru the thread when this caught my eye. It aligns with something that I recall reading years ago. Ginn Academy was situated at the old Margaret Spellacy Junior HS in Collinwood after that school closed. That school is/was EAST of Collinwood HS. So assuming this is all still true (I have NOT read the whole thread yet, but I am doing so.) one would think GA students would have to play for Collinwood, which sadly appears barely able to field a team in recent years.Sure about that? Glenville is at 650 E 113th St; GA is at 655 East 162nd St.
GA is closer to Collinwood than to Glenville. Look at the map:
Cleveland Metropolitan School District 2023 – Google My Maps
Cleveland Metropolitan School District 2023www.google.com
I also have always wondered why Senate Head Football Coaches and the AD's don't band together and stop this from going on. From the huge Senate scores I have seen looking them up on Joe Eitel, the Tarblooders cruise through the Senate every year like the Harlem Globetrotters vs. the New Jersey Reds and the Washington Generals. I know they had, or still have, a totally insane conference winning streak, way over 100 games unless I have missed something.
I am sure the Ginn Academy is a huge positive for the students that do attend and have in the past. But from what I recall about the football program, I'm not sure (today, been out of touch, may have missed changes) that it's not set up in a manner that is fair to the rest of the Senate. Perhaps they should be playing an independent schedule. They could sure rack up the guarantee checks if they did that, and it would put the Senate on a much more level playing field. Don't flame me too bad if I have missed developments that change this picture. Been out of touch for awhile, lots of personal issues.
Spell check wants to call the "Tarblooders" the Turboloaders lol! Make of that what you will : )
Well when you get to the part where this same guy acusses Ginn of trying to cosplay the Nation of Islam hopefully youll be able to understand why the Glenville complaints dont come from the city of Cleveland and what the real basis is for these threads lol
Calif_Eagle
Well-known member
I understand that a lot of Glenville people think all the criticism is racially motivated. From some people, it may be, IDK. I've now read the entire thread & found the discussion about who lives where, Glenville's # of students, graduates, boys, girls etc. confusing to say the least. No wonder OHSAA can't or doesn't or doesn't even want to address it or get a handle on it. Oil Filter's numbers on Glenville from ODE are as he put it, aren't intuitive at all.
I leave that aside. IDK where Glenville ought to be situated Division wise. I don't think purely going by enrollment numbers is the best system, but I also don't know, or am not sure, at this writing what w/b a better way to classify teams by their true capabilities. I'd need to give that a LOT more thought than I have. Just spit balling here; I believe when the Comp. Balance adjustments were 1st being discussed, there was a system being talked about like promotion-relegation in the European Pro Soccer leagues. Consistent success over a period means you move up. Failure means you move down. (Just as an aside, this isn't meant as an insult or denigrating comment to anyone, that's also the way classifications work in pro pari-mutuel dog racing. Do well over 5 races (3? Don't recall exactly.) & the dog moves up, do poorly & he moves down. Classes A through E, plus a Maiden class for non-winners.)
So maybe something like that c/b revisited. Obviously, it'd need to be worked on & worked out, I present this just as a general concept that would, of course, apply to everyone. (The rate my alma mater, Euclid HS, is losing at the last 3 seasons, they'd be lining up against Kirtland in no time. Probably having their heads returned in a basket too.) I've no doubt that Glenville w/b very competitive & successful above D IV. There are other schools that could easily punch above their weight too. Massillon, Steubenville, Hoban, Cin. LaSalle, etc. Many more too. The traditional "State Power" schools that top the polls & the playoff results year in & year out.
I really think Glenville should play an independent schedule. The way they hammer the Senate schools just has to be indicative of competitive imbalance, whether it's legal & fair or it isn't. IDK the answer to that, as the whole discussion on numbers of enrollment & who is allowed to play where by CMSD rules was pretty muddy. So I'm not saying anything about that. Beyond what I said about the other coaches in the Senate & what action I am surprised they haven't taken. Why lose "47-0" every year since 1997?
Playing in the Senate can't be helping the strength of their program either. I'm sure it hurt them in their D I & D II days when playoffs rolled around. Maybe they could leave the Senate just for football & play as an independent, or in the LEL or GCC. Being independent would mean they could rake 5 or 6 guarantee checks a year, maybe more if they were so inclined. My understanding is Steubenville pays really good money to have the number of home games that they do, 8 or so most seasons. (?) That's just one example of where they could play.
The other thing I wanted to bring up is, at one time there was talk about closing either Glenville or Collinwood & merging the two. IDK who has the better building, but Collinwood's is pretty old. I suspect it's Glenville, which I believe is much newer. It sure looked newer when I used to RTA it past there on my way to work near Downtown Cleveland. Either way I'd think the surviving school w/b called Glenville because of all the publicity Ted Ginn has gotten the school & the CMSD in recent years. If this happened, the old Spellacy school site w/b in the Glenville district, for whatever that may or may not be worth.
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Ill leave the racially motivated part because you bring up other really good points and seem genuinely willing to have a productive conversation. You are also right about the fact that you wont be convincing me its not racially motivated lol. Full disclosure my nephew is on the team so obviously Im biased as well. The only ppl who dont think Glenville should play ann independent schedule is the SENATE itself. Glenville asked for an independent schedule and got 2 reduced games. 7 Senate league games absolutely positively killed them back in their D1 days even. LEL is diet Senate League at this point unfortunately and GCC just not happening
Now what Division should they be in? Ppl forget before Covid Glenville was already in D3 so thats probably their rightful home if they win 4 again. City school population has gone down you cant make them punch above their weight (in population) because they still have good football players unless we are doing that for the other schools you mentioned. They dont have the numbers in the school/GA or on the field. Avon had at least 30 more kids. Glenville is realllllly talented but all that p5 kid at every positon and it being a guarantee they win it all talk from these ppl is horse you know what. If Fred Johnson gets hurt they are not bringing in another tackle with a offer to Louisville
Almost Prideful
Well-known member
Covid made the Tarblooders stronger.
Calif_Eagle
Well-known member
I think some of the criticism prob is racially motivated. I honestly think most of it is due to the fact that people have the perception that Glenville operates the same way that they perceive that St. Edward & St. Ignatius do (The "Seven County All-Stars"). That criticism (of the 2 major Cleveland Catholic schools) may or may not be justified either.
St. I for sure & possibly St. Edward (In Lakewood but very close to the city) both began life as pretty much neighborhood schools decades ago when almost everyone living in the Cleveland "Area" actually lived within the city limits. As time went by, people succeeded & post war (WW II) they started gradually over years and years heading to the suburbs. But they sent their kids to school in the city because they were convinced of it's value. Cathedral Latin lost a lot of enrollment for whatever reasons (The version of CL that was in the city by John Hay HS on E107th, not the present one in Chardon) & closed up shop (They recruited players, I had a friend that got recruited by them. So, A Player at least, lol). St Joe has had to merge with Villa Angela & has still lost a ton of enrollment too. I'm not saying these schools recruit for sports or that they don't. That, to me explains why they have kids from "7 Counties". I also think that probably like with Ginn Academy/Glenville, kids seek out St. I & St Edward for athletic reasons. More so in recent years than in the days when winning the State Title (with playoffs, theoretically anyone can win now) and getting a scholarship (cost of college has soared to the moon) weren't as strong of driving forces as they are today.
Well, regarding the Senate, if they don't want to let Glenville go independent, that surprises me. Years ago (decades really) there were Cleveland Public High Schools (mostly West Side) that played in suburban leagues mostly in close proximity to those schools. Of course different people are running things today and the city has changed dramatically over those years too. I agree that the LEL is probably not a whole lot higher caliber than the Senate, with Heights and Shaker gone to the GCC. I would think the GCC would entertain the thought of Glenville playing football in the league, but I have no idea what administrators think. You probably know better than I about that, (Racial? Possibly, IDK. The East Siders, Euclid, Shaker, Heights... I think would be fine with it. The West Siders? IDK maybe it is a racial thing.)
Yes, with city population evaporating and OHSAA having Divisions set by enrollment numbers you can't change Divisions, even if you wanted to. (Pennsylvania allows schools to play up. I think Ohio should too.) I get that, totally. They calculate it how they do & that's it. When I suggested a promotion-relegation system I did NOT mean that it only applied or would only apply to Glenville. If one got adopted, it should apply to everyone. If it did, over a period of time, we'd see (I believe) every school in the State in a Division where they truly belonged. Not just Glenville moving up but everyone that showed a consistently strong football program. The inverse is also true. Teams that are terrible year in & year out would drop. I am sure the rest of the Senate would mostly drop pretty quickly. (Sadly, so would Euclid if present losing trends continue.) I would not evaluate the teams by one season but by a number of seasons. So a senior dominated championship team wouldn't move up and promptly get plowed under the next year with all the key players being gone.
Regarding your points on depth, they are very valid. I would have to give that a lot of thought in terms of how to evaluate that. I know in years past many Senate schools, as one example, have had trouble fielding teams & when they take a guarantee check & play a school with 100 players... that has to pretty much spell doom before the kickoff. Euclid played at Warrensville one season when they were both in the LEL. Euclid had a large lead in the 3rd quarter (49-13 or so, from memory) & the Tigers had an injury & went down to just 10 players. The game got called right then & there. So yes... depth is a real issue & would have to factored for. Needs a lot more thought for sure.
All-state kicker
Well-known member
Not true at all. Transfers all over the state are sitting out while their transfer applications are reviewed. First you say the Glenville “Reserve” Freshmen team is a bunch of upperclassmen and now this.
Those two intersect imo. Yes the (dumb) perception they operate like Eds and Iggy may be the driving force but right behind it is disgust anybody would send their kids there. Because Im not gonna sit here and lie to you some families absolutely seek out Glenville for athletic reasons. The fact that nobody has a better track record with inner city kids than Ginn be damned and nobody should their child there, according to them.
I think the Senate thing comes down to it being a big deal being the first ever champs from the Senate and then immediately turning around and asking for an independent schedule in that same sport
.I also understand you wouldnt want a system that only Glenville moved up in I was agreeing with you. And I know you made a lot of eyes roll because these folks love to act like their schools dont participate in the rat race. If you let yappi tell it all 900+ wins in a certain school's history occured with kids who were born and raised in that same town lol
Gamma Gobbler
Well-known member
Nice post!Those two intersect imo. Yes the (dumb) perception they operate like Eds and Iggy may be the driving force but right behind it is disgust anybody would send their kids there. Because Im not gonna sit here and lie to you some families absolutely seek out Glenville for athletic reasons. The fact that nobody has a better track record with inner city kids than Ginn be damned and nobody should their child there, according to them.
I think the Senate thing comes down to it being a big deal being the first ever champs from the Senate and then immediately turning around and asking for an independent schedule in that same sport
I also understand you wouldnt want a system that only Glenville moved up in I was agreeing with you. And I know you made a lot of eyes roll because these folks love to act like their schools dont participate in the rat race. If you let yappi tell it all 900+ wins in a certain school's history occured with kids who were born and raised in that same town lol
World breaker hulk 282
Active member
Not true at all. Transfers all over the state are sitting out while their transfer applications are reviewed. First you say the Glenville “Reserve” Freshmen team is a bunch of upperclassmen and now this.
So are they sitting out or not?
Am I correct or not
Nah Ginn Elite kids are just in high school now. Not just at Glenville either. Heights has two Ginn kids who are playing out of their minds and God Bless em!
That's not the rule.
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
All of this information and opinion is enlightening. But at the end of the day the main question is still unanswered. How is it possible for Glenville to have a zero competitive balance number?
Ohiofootball76
Active member
Ginville supplied the transfers with addresses the transfer in. Their paperwork was obviously not completed and they cant prove eligibility. Thats why they are even in this situation. The kids who have proper paperwork that have transferred to various schools ( theres a lot of them) are not having this issue. Transferring to a school is a huge commitment for a family but some of the schools do not take the paperwork seriously. Now Senior football players are in danger of losing their Senior year of football.
Gamma Gobbler
Well-known member
I may have been drunk or asleep because I was drunk but WTF? Where can I find this information? Is this all Yappi poster talk or something definitive from OHSAA? Sometimes with this type of stuff I feel like I'm reading the National Enquirer...
EagleFan
Fan of Eagle
Location of Ginn does not matter. The residence of the kid does. Seems the rule is even if Ginn was located on west side, the kids play football where they live, the Glenville zone.
All-state kicker
Well-known member
There aren’t “rumors”, like grow up. Players are sitting out while their applications are reviewed. They practiced yesterday and they’ll play Friday. Tell us more about the Glenville “Reserve” Fr. team
interesting only Ed’s uses the “reserve” designation.All-state kicker
Well-known member
This. It’s really not that complicated.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
They ain't there to play school.
Gamma Gobbler
Well-known member
You aren't a Glenville supporter are you? What do you really feel? Let it out....
My thoughts: I think we view public schools that attract talent more negatively than private schools, from the OHSAA down to fans. It is as if one is understandable, natural, acceptable, and one is duplicitous and unfair. Part of it I think is the majority (or significanty more) private schools operate this way, but only a much smaller number of public schools "attract" talent and can consistently compete anywhere near that level. You can pretty much count on one hand: Glenville, Massillon, Winton Woods, maybe Steubenville, who else? Therefore they must me doing something wrong because most public schools do not have noticeable CB scores or more that a few "known" transfers here and there.
In summary, I say more power to Glenville. More power to public schools. And otherwise boo, hoo.
In summary, I say more power to Glenville. More power to public schools. And otherwise boo, hoo.
All-state kicker
Well-known member
Massillon is though. Just look at their district report card.
All-state kicker
Well-known member
So corny and jealousYou aren't a Glenville supporter are you? What do you really feel? Let it out....
That BS. That's why we get trolled too. District general performance and academic performance of a football program are often at odds. From what I have read and heard from Ginn, he really mentors and takes their futures seriously and I can see why parents in the area want to send their kids to him. Same way coach Moore and his wife go the extra mile to mentor his players academically and in life. Our team GPA is very solid and is recognized state wide, in no small thanks to his/their efforts.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
Is it? Less than 10% of GA students read at grade level.
All-state kicker
Well-known member
This is not true at all. What are you talking about?
Well they are not attracting move ins and transfers from Saint Ignatius. They get students among lowest income % who may be struggling on various levels but want to improve. I hope it works. If it fails it fails but I think he/they are genuinely trying. I am sure there are also several there strictly for athletic purposes but that can be an avenue also.