Northwest Ohio Realignment

Of course people can excel in TPS, but to say it's as good of an environment as a place like St John's or Toledo Christian is insane. Also the OHSAA has nothing to do with this, this a state of Ohio policy

If students can and do excel in those schools then why remove the best and brightest from those schools? If they remain in their schools wouldn't it make sense that the curriculum would be expanded and there would be more peer academic competition and collaboration? As well as improved test scores?

If private schools were to fund all of their scholarships internally and be allowed to provide those scholarships for any reason including athletics, then the OHSAA would be very much involved. I didn't spell that out, but that is what I was getting at in the prior post.

My focus would be more on improving the public schools and attempting to find ways to get rid of the high costs and inefficiencies created by too many requirements and government oversight. There does need to be transparency and accountability, but the oversight should not become so time consuming, expensive and burdensome that it takes away from classroom learning. Not a fan of schools being everything for everyone. Their job is to provide an opportunity of an education, but should not be expected to replace mom and dad or be expected to educate those who are a constant disruption and have zero desire to learn. Narrow the scope and get the focus back 100% on educating young people and away from all of the other BS that has entered into the school building.

Study the successful public schools by peer group and demographic and model the rest around them. This will never happen because there are too many special interest groups pushing an agenda instead of focusing on classroom education.

There does need to be some consolidation of the private schools in the Toledo area. The families/students who choose to attend them should be active, supportive and have at least some understanding and belief in the schools charter.
 
Of course people can excel in TPS, but to say it's as good of an environment as a place like St John's or Toledo Christian is insane.

Beyond scary statement. But typical. I very much doubt you'd get anyone from SJJ to say that on camera and I very much doubt you'd get anyone from TC to say that. To each their own as they say. I'd rather an environment that respected people.
 
Isn't time for a new organization??? IB has plenty of time on his hands.....
I'd cut vouchers to schools not held to the same standards. I would also ensure vouchers are not used like athletic scholarships. Lets dig into WHO all gets those 231 vouchers at Central? Are they awarded out of a pool randomly or just kids who can jump high and run fast? Once all of those things are cleaned up I'd watch your beloved football team drop to nothing and the school close within a couple years.

If you want to be a private school be a private school. The minute you take taxpayer money and game the system using them as scholarships I take exception.

225 boys 10-12 and 10-15 DI guys on the roster. Wow.
 
You write these things but you do not support them with even casual observation, let alone supportive facts. Facts can be hard to come by but can you be more specific on these observations? What are the causes of the "high costs?" Where are the "inefficencies?" And what "special interest" groups and "agenda" do you think are driving the curriculums, In what ways, specifically do you think the curriculums are different from say, Perrysburg or St Francis or Central Catholic?

I work with several engineers, accountants etc. who attended TPS. The teachers, curriculum and facilities did not hold them back.

There is plenty of section 8 housing in the burbs if they choose that route.

I also mention that if private schools want to fund scholarship for any reason (covering gifted and talented or extra curriculars) then they should be able to offer them with no strings attached as long as they fund them themselves. OHSAA would not allow that, but nothing is stopping them from forming a new organization.

The other poster was providing reasons for students to need a means to escape. I disagreed with him.

I meant by my 1st sentence that the teachers, curriculum and facilities are good and allow for motivated students to become whatever they want in the future. I assume you took it as saying they achieved what they did in spite of the school system. Not the intent.

2nd sentence - Absent the desire to stay at their local school and if a voucher was no longer available they still are not "stuck" since there is affordable housing in many if not all of the burbs.

For example; https://affordablehousingonline.com/housing-search/Ohio/Oregon

As far as curriculum I was not arguing that it was insufficient since I have not done a comparison. My assumption is that if demand for additional AP and advanced courses were needed the district would adjust accordingly in an attempt to meet the higher demand. The point I was making is if many of the students who would take those course are leaving via vouchers, then the result is less demand.

For comparison sake my daughter's school offers 20 AP courses and 84+% of the AP tests are passed.

With inefficiencies if I knew specifically what they all were then I would of pointed them out. I said I would attempt to identify and remove them and use a portion of the savings directly in the classroom where the $$$ belongs. Right now the solution for underperforming classrooms seems to be "they are broke so we have to give vouchers".

It is pretty clear to from the stats below that the inefficiencies are not a result of teacher salaries. I would start with the question - What caused the need for a 702% increase in staffing and administration when student populations only increased 96%? My assumption is government requirements, paperwork and oversight. Where is the return? Better prepared students, better test scores etc.?

Stats are from the 1st article I found but supported what I anticipated I would find. I'm sure there are better sources with the same findings - but I could be swayed with a counter argument explaining the massive increase in spending when it doesn't result in increased teacher pay.

Benjamin Scafidi’s seminal report, Back to the Staffing Surge, outlines that the problem with K-12 education funding in America today isn’t the overall amount of dollars going into government schools, but how those dollars are allocated by school districts. Surges in staffing and administrative bloat have become the norm across the country. From 1950 to 2009, student populations increased by 96%, while non-teaching staff increased by a whopping 702%.

More recently, Scafidi observed that between 1992 and 2014, real education spending per pupil increased by 27 percent, whereas real teacher salaries dropped by 2 percent.
 
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NW Ohio All-Star Football Game Set For Friday, June 18​

The Perrysburg Athletic Boosters will once again host the annual Northwest Ohio Regional All-Star Football Game at Perrysburg’s Widdel Field at Steinecker Stadium on Friday, June 18 with a kickoff time of 7:00 p.m. This is the 30th year for the event that features over 100 players from over 40 different area school districts from across northwest Ohio.

Athletes are divided into two teams, the Gold Team and the Black Team. Both teams will be coached by local coaching staffs with the Gold Team being led by Archbold Head Coach David Dominique and the Black Team being led by (former) Toledo St. Francis Head Coach Dan Chipka.

Tickets for the game will be $7 for all spectators with the gates opening at 5:30 p.m. Tickets will be available beginning Monday, June 14 and can be purchased online only at → www.perrysburgschools.net/OnlineTicketPurchase


Always enjoy this game, a lot of hard hitting and good football is usually played at these games!
 
^^^ As someone who was intimately involved in those decisions at three different institutions over the last decade, east is dead on...the highly selective school didn't care in the slightest how many AP Credits someone had, the moderately selective one didn't care, and the non-selective one was actually disappointed because they knew better than the others that the amount of credits a student takes from AP does typically have an inverse correlation with that student's performed at the University, and less selective institutions have to care far more about retention of students (due to their typically lower overall retention rates and funding models normally being disadvantageous in comparison to the more selective institutions). CCP is different, as those are obviously ollege courses...but having AP credit isn't exactly the indicator of success that many believe it to be.

I always laugh when Sylvania touts their amount of AP testing options...that's just saying your district is rich and has a lot of whiny parents...not that you're a great institution/district.
 
^^^ As someone who was intimately involved in those decisions at three different institutions over the last decade, east is dead on...the highly selective school didn't care in the slightest how many AP Credits someone had, the moderately selective one didn't care, and the non-selective one was actually disappointed because they knew better than the others that the amount of credits a student takes from AP does typically have an inverse correlation with that student's performed at the University, and less selective institutions have to care far more about retention of students (due to their typically lower overall retention rates and funding models normally being disadvantageous in comparison to the more selective institutions). CCP is different, as those are obviously ollege courses...but having AP credit isn't exactly the indicator of success that many believe it to be.

I always laugh when Sylvania touts their amount of AP testing options...that's just saying your district is rich and has a lot of whiny parents...not that you're a great institution/district.

I'll have to take your word that those are the feelings of those institutions since that was your observation. Could you let me know which institutions they were?

Obviously taking a course means nothing - it is all about mastering the course work. You would need to provide some support for the comment about an inverse correlation. I find that very hard to believe.


On the other hand, we found that passing the corresponding AP exams is related to college graduation rates. That is, students who demonstrate that they 2 are ready for college and that they can successfully complete an AP course and pass an AP exam in high school are also those who are most likely to graduate from college. In general, school systems that do a better job of preparing students for college and career produce more students who take and pass AP exams and also produce more students who later graduate from college.
 
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Public schools are as good as the communities they are made up of, private schools are as good as the families they are made up of. Any issues with public or private schools are more often than not representative of the issues the community is facing outside of the school building
 
Why assume how someone took it as opposed to just asking them?

To answer that question, I made no assumption. I asked for clarification and extension to thought. That alone should have made clear, no assumptions were made.


you wrote:

Smalls: "My focus would be more on improving the public schools and attempting to find ways to get rid of the high costs and inefficiencies created by too many requirements and government oversight."

That sure reads like you have a specific idea. Or are you just presuming they exist?

Smalls: "What caused the need for a 702% increase in staffing and administration when student populations only increased 96%? My assumption is government requirements, paperwork and oversight. Where is the return? Better prepared students, better test scores etc.?

You're presuming inefficiencies and you're presuming the causes of those presumed inefficiencies even though you don't know the causes of those inefficiencies....

Assumptions and presumptions. Not a good sign. Did I miss where you clarified what "special interest" groups were driving educational "inefficiencies?" Because they may well be those who were interested in getting education to the demographics that did not see equitable education in the 1950s, 60s, ... That is your return.

Any system should of course be subject to review for inefficiencies and there will always be systemic resistence to reducing those. It can be done of course. I've often referred to how Purdue found a way to hold tuition steady for the last 8 years, while growing as an institution in both capital and population. I wouldn't presume a problem. I'd find concrete evidence of it. If there is a problem, I wouldn't suggest trying to fix it based upon causal presumption.

BTW: AP courses? Like IB (Int Bas, not Irish B) they're a purchased product, not a sign of a better education. They're pretty low on most universities' entrance decisions.

Why assume? Well you do have a history of assuming you know someone and making false assumptions and accusations. Why would you change now?

I don't have the time to respond to all of this. Maybe another time.

I did find this article from the Brookings Institute informative - covers both k-12 and college cost "bloat".


Some of the findings;

  • College tuition, net of subsidies, is 11.1 times higher in 2015 than in 1980, dramatically higher than the 2.5 increase in overall personal consumption over the period. For private education, from pre-K through secondary, prices are 8.5 times higher now than in 1980. For public schools, the rise is lower—4.7 from 1980 to 2013—but still far above general inflation.
  • For the nation’s 17-year-olds, there have been no gains in literacy since the National Assessment of Educational Progress began in 1971. Performance is somewhat better on math, but there has still been no progress since 1990. The long-term stagnation cannot be attributed to racial or ethnic differences in the U.S. population. Literacy scores for white students peaked in 1975; in math, scores peaked in the early 1990s.
  • The United States ranks dead last among 26 countries tested on math gains, and second to last on literacy gains across these generations. The countries which have made the largest math gains include South Korea, Slovenia, France, Poland, Finland, and the Netherlands.
  • For higher education, a major factor driving up costs has been a growth in the number of highly-paid non-teaching professionals. In 1988, for every 100 full-time equivalent students, there were on average 23 college employees. By 2012, that number had increased to 31 employees, with a shift toward the highest paying non-teaching occupations. Managers and professionals now outnumber faculty, who comprise just a third of the higher education workforce.
  • In primary and secondary public education, where price increases have been less dramatic, there has been a decline in bureaucratic efficiency. The number of students for every district-level administrator fell from 519 in 1980 to 365 in 2012. Principals and assistant principals managed 382 students in 1980 but only 294 in 2012.
  • An even bigger problem perhaps is that teaching itself has become increasingly unattractive. Salaries for teachers start low, relative to the education they require, and never get particularly competitive. School systems also impose frustrating daily constraints upon teachers, often in the form of mandatory administrative exams, required by school districts, states, and federal bureaucracies. This burden, combined with weak pay, has deterred many top students from entering teaching, and driven many others out.

My partial solution greatly reduce the huge amount on non-teaching administration, who have nothing better to do but impose more constraints and mandates on teachers in the classroom in order to justify their daily activities. Constraints and mandates that have done nothing to improve results. Take that savings and put it in the classroom by hiring more teachers (reduced class size) and make all raises merit based.
 
Okay, so where are we at in all of the league changes/shuffling?

Yeah, I was just thinking the same, these are all of the confirmed moves:

TRAC (Potentially disbanding, 4 schools for each gender remaining)

-OUT-
Clay
Fremont Ross
Findlay
Whitmer

NLL (Grows to 11 teams)

-IN-
Clay
Fremont Ross
Findlay
Whitmer

-Out-
Maumee

NBC (Remains at 8 teams)

-IN-
Maumee
Oak Harbor

-Out-
Elmwood
Woodmore

SBC (Alignment TBD, Remains at 21 total teams)

-IN-
Woodmore

-Out-
Oak Harbor

BVC (Remains at 11 teams)

-IN-
Elmwood

-Out-
Cory Rawson

NWCC (up to 12 teams with other already planned additions)

-IN-
Cory Rawson

Discussions ongoing, maybe?
Swanton, Evergreen, Delta, Northwood, Ottawa Hills, Montpelier joining to create a new conference.
 
Yeah, I was just thinking the same, these are all of the confirmed moves:

TRAC (Potentially disbanding, 4 schools for each gender remaining)

-OUT-
Clay
Fremont Ross
Findlay
Whitmer

NLL (Grows to 11 teams)

-IN-
Clay
Fremont Ross
Findlay
Whitmer

-Out-
Maumee

NBC (Remains at 8 teams)

-IN-
Maumee
Oak Harbor

-Out-
Elmwood
Woodmore

SBC (Alignment TBD, Remains at 21 total teams)

-IN-
Woodmore

-Out-
Oak Harbor

BVC (Remains at 11 teams)

-IN-
Elmwood

-Out-
Cory Rawson

NWCC (up to 12 teams with other already planned additions)

-IN-
Cory Rawson

Discussions ongoing, maybe?
Swanton, Evergreen, Delta, Northwood, Ottawa Hills, Montpelier joining to create a new conference.
Thanks much for the nice summary of where it’s at!
 
^^^ As someone who was intimately involved in those decisions at three different institutions over the last decade, east is dead on...the highly selective school didn't care in the slightest how many AP Credits someone had, the moderately selective one didn't care, and the non-selective one was actually disappointed because they knew better than the others that the amount of credits a student takes from AP does typically have an inverse correlation with that student's performed at the University, and less selective institutions have to care far more about retention of students (due to their typically lower overall retention rates and funding models normally being disadvantageous in comparison to the more selective institutions). CCP is different, as those are obviously ollege courses...but having AP credit isn't exactly the indicator of success that many believe it to be.

I always laugh when Sylvania touts their amount of AP testing options...that's just saying your district is rich and has a lot of whiny parents...not that you're a great institution/district.
You're saying that Northwestern, Notre Dame, etc. don't care if an applicant takes AP classes? I know they don't accept them for college credit for the most part, but we were told that our son needed to take the toughest schedule available to him if he wanted to have a chance at those schools.

To be honest, one of the reasons we decided to bring him back to public school instead of staying at a private HS was that the easier class load would make his test scores stand out. He wound up turning down a couple of those highly selective schools and took advantage of the National Merit program instead.
 
You're saying that Northwestern, Notre Dame, etc. don't care if an applicant takes AP classes? I know they don't accept them for college credit for the most part, but we were told that our son needed to take the toughest schedule available to him if he wanted to have a chance at those schools.

To be honest, one of the reasons we decided to bring him back to public school instead of staying at a private HS was that the easier class load would make his test scores stand out. He wound up turning down a couple of those highly selective schools and took advantage of the National Merit program instead.

My comment was specifically pertaining to AP Credit or scores on AP exams, those don't matter one bit for a student's "admissibility". Yes, you should absolutely have your son or daughter in the most academically rigorous curriculum to showcase their abilities to ensure they are up to snuff for higher level academic institutions.
 
Is there any news on the NLL? I know I'm a broken record here, but that 11 team setup right now is a damn mess. I just am skeptical with how things have gone in the SBC that a two division/six team setup is better than an 8 team league. IMO the NLL is going to have to be a comprehensive in all sports except football to work
 
My comment was specifically pertaining to AP Credit or scores on AP exams, those don't matter one bit for a student's "admissibility". Yes, you should absolutely have your son or daughter in the most academically rigorous curriculum to showcase their abilities to ensure they are up to snuff for higher level academic institutions.
Do you see a scenario where a student might be best served by open-enrolling at a school that offers fewer AP courses/has a lower academic reputation to game the system a little? When you're competing with 10,000 other kids to get into Stanford or Harvard and Perrysburg HS profiles just like every other affluent suburban HS in the midwest, would your application get a bump if you were a graduate of Lake, for example? I've seen a few kids from Perrysburg open enroll at Otsego/Rossford etc. for athletic purposes - I'm surprised no one has tried to do it for academics with the thought there'd be less competition for Valedictorian/Top 10/Top 10%.

Just curious how stuff like that factors in. My kid really liked ND after visiting the campus. He got wait-listed after applying EA and decided not to supplement his application with additional recommendations, etc. I told him as a kid who'd attended an all boys' Catholic school in Ohio, his profile was probably not unique for ND.
 
Is there any news on the NLL? I know I'm a broken record here, but that 11 team setup right now is a damn mess. I just am skeptical with how things have gone in the SBC that a two division/six team setup is better than an 8 team league. IMO the NLL is going to have to be a comprehensive in all sports except football to work
A league of 8 is best.

Two divisions of 6 would work.

They only have 11, not 12.
 
^^^^ As always, east is on it. Most schools are looking at or straight up altering years old admissions policy to become test optional because of people gaming systems and districts teaching to the taking of tests instead of developing aptitude/mastery in areas and stoking interest in fields of study/topics earlier in life.

Think about what those schools will be looking at if they don't have a number to assess a candidate's abilities...involvement, community action, leadership qualities, mental fortitude, etc. If you think switching from a good school to a supposedly bad school would make you look BETTER by any of those measures, you're not on the right track.
 
Northwestern accepted my daughter and gave her a scholarship because she was "diverse" (and had a great ACT and very good SAT).

Her diversity? She was in 4-H.
 
I went to school with kids that were used to being up at 6am and working in the barn or field. I thought I knew what hard work was before I'd met them. I learned fast. Glad for your kid but kind of sad that what should be a mainstream is now a "diversity."
 
More than one court has ruled that it is constitutional.

You may disagree, but your opinion doesn't matter.

5A516481-D684-42A4-B571-73709F52AFF7.gif
 
Do you see a scenario where a student might be best served by open-enrolling at a school that offers fewer AP courses/has a lower academic reputation to game the system a little? When you're competing with 10,000 other kids to get into Stanford or Harvard and Perrysburg HS profiles just like every other affluent suburban HS in the midwest, would your application get a bump if you were a graduate of Lake, for example? I've seen a few kids from Perrysburg open enroll at Otsego/Rossford etc. for athletic purposes - I'm surprised no one has tried to do it for academics with the thought there'd be less competition for Valedictorian/Top 10/Top 10%.

Just curious how stuff like that factors in. My kid really liked ND after visiting the campus. He got wait-listed after applying EA and decided not to supplement his application with additional recommendations, etc. I told him as a kid who'd attended an all boys' Catholic school in Ohio, his profile was probably not unique for ND.
A couple anecdotes:
1) When 1 of my school's students asked a ND admissions rep if they'd prefer that a student earn a B in an AP class or an A in a "regular" class, the rep responded "an A in the AP class." I don't recall if the kid got into ND, but he ended up going to Northwestern.

2) My brother is a professor at a Tier 1 liberal arts college in another part of the country. When I mentioned how kids join as many activities and clubs as possible to pad their college resume, he said most admissions employees don't care how many activities an applicant claims to participate in. Yes, they want to bring in as balanced/diverse of a freshman class as possible, but they want that balance to be comprised of X number of valedictorians, X number of All-state athletes, X number of team captains, X number of medal winners in the state art competition, etc. In other words, they want students who have proven that they possess abilities that the school can potentially market and capitalize on. At least that was the case up until a couple years ago. Many institutions have been forced to lower their standards in recent years in order to maintain enrollment, i.e. as a matter of survival.

Let the NW realignment discussion continue. HS league construction is fascinating to me.
 
A couple anecdotes:
1) When 1 of my school's students asked a ND admissions rep if they'd prefer that a student earn a B in an AP class or an A in a "regular" class, the rep responded "an A in the AP class." I don't recall if the kid got into ND, but he ended up going to Northwestern.

2) My brother is a professor at a Tier 1 liberal arts college in..

eh hem lol
The correct question to ask would have been, would they prefer an A in an AP class or an A in an Honor class on the same subject. Unless the rep was working with college board, they would have said, "doesn't matter." ;) Without getting into the longer reasons why ( has to do with internal politics that goes on in), if your school offers both (and maybe even college credit plus) what you really want to look at is the teacher and method of delivery, in-person or remote.

Let the NW realignment discussion continue. HS league construction is fascinating to me.
aahh, the ones that have their say, then claim it's time to move on. SMH.



Class, feel free to pick up on whatever discussion you feel valuable. Obviously many are teachers, admins and parents with athletic kids heading to college. This anecdote. I was teaching a class. A husky older guy showed up at the door glaring at an even huskier kid and saying get in. That husky older guy was one of Meyer's assistant coaches. The next coach, not so much. Successful people know the priorities.

If your kid is hoping for entrance to a very competitive school, a school that is getting straight honors A (AP or otherwise) from schools all across the country. MY advice, It's the boards and the activities, particularly showing leadership and depending on the school, selflessness that they are looking for, even over those straight A's. They're looking for future alums that are going to contribute to the reputation and endowment of the school.
 
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The rumored Swanton/Northwood League "members" are certainly under no obligation to make any comments. It is surprising, however, that all of the "sources" and friends of someone on the inside have disappeared. :cool:
 
The rumored Swanton/Northwood League "members" are certainly under no obligation to make any comments. It is surprising, however, that all of the "sources" and friends of someone on the inside have disappeared. :cool:

You have any feelings different from what ToledoGuy posted at the top of this page? I'd think eveyone has gone home for the Summer and that all movement is done for the time being. This is a two year out thing,right? Who is in the biggest emergency? Anyone without a Fall schedule.
 
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