Northwest Ohio Realignment

Smalls

Well-known member
^^^^^Would love for the schools to open up in the summer, but I am afraid if it was not mandatory there would be very little participation.

My brother has one student in his summer school class. Guess the parents complaining about their kids falling behind are not that concerned about the outcome and more interested in Bching.
 
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irish_buffalo

Well-known member
^^^^^Would love for the schools to open up in the summer, but I am afraid if it was not mandatory there would be very little participation.

My brother has one student in his summer school class. Guess the parents complaining about their kids falling behind are not that concerned about the outcome and more interested in !ng.
Apples to Oranges discussion here. The effect of vouchers on public school districts within private school reach has nothing to do with Covid-19 and summer school being mandatory. Using MY property tax so a kid can leave MY district to attend a school not held to the same standards is BS no matter how one spins it. The Ohio Supreme Court has ruled 4x that schools are funded illegally and nothing has happened? Why? Concerted effort to privatize schools.
 

chs1971

Well-known member
Not really. I know it is tough to see from Clyde but I know of two local privates that would be shuttered if not for vouchers. Voucher expansion the past two years should become even more apparent as we move forward.
a. No public schools have closed because of vouchers so the "concerted effort" seems to be failing miserably. What are vouchers doing for enrollment at places like Fremont St. Joe or Fostoria St. Wendelin?

b. I graduated from Clyde HS. I live elsewhere.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
Apples to Oranges discussion here. The effect of vouchers on public school districts within private school reach has nothing to do with Covid-19 and summer school being mandatory. Using MY property tax so a kid can leave MY district to attend a school not held to the same standards is BS no matter how one spins it. The Ohio Supreme Court has ruled 4x that schools are funded illegally and nothing has happened? Why? Concerted effort to privatize schools.
Right. I was not arguing that point....more was just looking for a place to make a statement about parents complaining about the education their kids are or are not receiving, but when given an opportunity to close some of the void they choose not to take advantage of what the school system is providing.

As far as school funding, if public school ABC cost $13K to educate a student then the tax payers have to come up with the full $13K from a variety of taxes. Now if that same student goes to a private school and takes the $6k Edchoice voucher the tax payer is paying $6K and the difference is made up in private $$$, lower costs and or tuition payments from the family. So from a tax payer standpoint EdChoice is about a $7K savings.

If instead of purchasing an education with your tax dollars your local community was purchasing cars or land or gold......which would you choose?

What are your thoughts on open enrollment? The financial harm that EdChoice and open enrollment places on a district is no different. There are winners and losers. I would argue that open enrollment is even worse in that not only is the local district losing the student/tax dollars, but the tax payers as a whole are not seeing the tax savings that results from EdChoice.

Now the potential harm it does to the local district goes beyond the $$$ however and is much harder to quantify. This is where I agree 100% with you.

Edit: To put some numbers to it. If my real estate taxes are $3,600/year and ~$2,000 goes to the school system and the school system has ~3,500 students then each student is costing me ~$0.57/year in taxes.

The real tax issue in "our" community is paying 2.25% income tax, with services that are no better and in many cases worse than most of the surrounding communities. That rate is anywhere from .25%-.75% higher than most. So now you can be talking about paying a premium of several hundred or even thousands of dollars instead of maybe $100-$200 moved outside the community to private schools. Everything is relative I suppose.
 
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FremontKeith

Well-known member
a. No public schools have closed because of vouchers so the "concerted effort" seems to be failing miserably. What are vouchers doing for enrollment at places like Fremont St. Joe or Fostoria St. Wendelin?

b. I graduated from Clyde HS. I live elsewhere.
Didn't St. Wendelin close a few years ago?
 

Smalls

Well-known member
Number of EdChoice students by private school in Toledo area.

1623083329523.png
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In a land without vouchers I could see many Stritch students ending up at Central. Most families come from East and North Toledo/Point Place.

Toledo Christian, Emmanuel Christian would not survive.

St. Francis has a pretty big number and would have to make a lot of cuts, but would survive. ND, SUA and SJJ would have no problem living without vouchers.

I assume the vast majority of the students in the graphs above (600 total) are being pulled from TPS. Does anyone have open enrollment numbers for the burbs? I was told Oregon has 200+ open enrollment students in the district. Not sure what that means at the high school level to compare apples to apples.

My point being that I assume the open enrollment public schools are doing more harm to TPS than EdChoice.
 
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cchs1983

Well-known member
Number of EdChoice students by private school in Toledo area.

View attachment 17889
View attachment 17890

My point being that I assume the open enrollment public schools are doing more harm to TPS than EdChoice.
Interesting to see how Washington Local handles open enrollment throughout their district. Is it for grades K-12 or just high school aged kids? If you've ever seen the district map, Washington Local covers such a large area that butts up against TPS, a shift in numbers will be interesting. And did I hear/understand correctly, did a suit from WLS say their going to 'selective' open enrollment? How does that work and how do you stay out of law suits for not 'allowing' certain kids in? Is there really a 'selective' open enrollment model out there?
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
As far as school funding, if public school ABC cost $13K to educate a student then the tax payers have to come up with the full $13K from a variety of taxes. Now if that same student goes to a private school and takes the $6k Edchoice voucher the tax payer is paying $6K and the difference is made up in private $$$, lower costs and or tuition payments from the family. So from a tax payer standpoint EdChoice is about a $7K savings.
My property taxes are based on where I live and are local. That is why I live where I live. My property taxes, pulled from a levy, should not be used outside of MY district to prop up a failing private school.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
Number of EdChoice students by private school in Toledo area.

View attachment 17889
View attachment 17890

In a land without vouchers I could see many Stritch students ending up at Central. Most families come from East and North Toledo/Point Place.

Toledo Christian, Emmanuel Christian would not survive.

St. Francis has a pretty big number and would have to make a lot of cuts, but would survive. ND, SUA and SJJ would have no problem living without vouchers.

I assume the vast majority of the students in the graphs above (600 total) are being pulled from TPS. Does anyone have open enrollment numbers for the burbs? I was told Oregon has 200+ open enrollment students in the district. Not sure what that means at the high school level to compare apples to apples.

My point being that I assume the open enrollment public schools are doing more harm to TPS than EdChoice.
Wrong again. In an land without vouchers those kids do not go to CC? They would need the voucher to get into CC the same as Stritch.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
Number of EdChoice students by private school in Toledo area.

View attachment 17889
View attachment 17890

In a land without vouchers I could see many Stritch students ending up at Central. Most families come from East and North Toledo/Point Place.

Toledo Christian, Emmanuel Christian would not survive.

St. Francis has a pretty big number and would have to make a lot of cuts, but would survive. ND, SUA and SJJ would have no problem living without vouchers.

I assume the vast majority of the students in the graphs above (600 total) are being pulled from TPS. Does anyone have open enrollment numbers for the burbs? I was told Oregon has 200+ open enrollment students in the district. Not sure what that means at the high school level to compare apples to apples.

My point being that I assume the open enrollment public schools are doing more harm to TPS than EdChoice.
CC receives 1.5 million in public money yet can pick and choose who they want? The local public has to take them all. I'd love to see the breakdown of the 231 vouchers. How many are boys vs girls? How many play football and basketball vs everything else?

At what point does a private school actually become a public school? I'd say they are there.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
Wrong again. In an land without vouchers those kids do not go to CC? They would need the voucher to get into CC the same as Stritch.
I worded that poorly.

Agree a vast majority of the East and North Toledo kids would no longer attend private schools without the voucher, the other roughly 50% of Stritch families would look for other private school opportunities. So Central may lose 200, but have the potential to add from a private school consolidation. I do not think Central would close.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
My property taxes are based on where I live and are local. That is why I live where I live. My property taxes, pulled from a levy, should not be used outside of MY district to prop up a failing private school.

But it is ok for our local district to sponge off of and harm another district so long as they are public? Are they not taking local taxes dollars out of the community? Are they not taking advantage of the perception that one school district is better than another?

I am not a fan of vouchers and am more so playing devils advocate - but I think the argument against open enrollment should be just as vocal and remain consistent with the argument against vouchers. In my eyes one school system/community should not be able to rob from another....and that is what open enrollment does just as well as vouchers.

At the end of the day locally they both screw TPS.
 
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nwwarrior09

Well-known member
When you take in open enrollment students you do not receive any local tax dollars (property, sales, etc.) from the districts the students are coming from. You receive the state tax money that follows that given student.

There is an enormous difference between state taxes following a student to a different public school district as compared to a private institution via a voucher.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
When you take in open enrollment students you do not receive any local tax dollars (property, sales, etc.) from the districts the students are coming from. You receive the state tax money that follows that given student.

There is an enormous difference between state taxes following a student to a different public school district as compared to a private institution via a voucher.
Thank you for the explanation.

Are you able to provide an example of where the $$$ comes from for an open enrollment student vs a voucher student in actual dollars? I am not sure if I am asking for something that is impossible or not. Not meaning it as a smart as request, really just want to understand.

I personally view all taxes as the same. Don't care it they are fed, state, local. At the end of the day it is money taken out of my paycheck/bank account.
 
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irish_buffalo

Well-known member
But it is ok for our local district to sponge off of and harm another district so long as they are public? Are they not taking local taxes dollars out of the community? Are they not taking advantage of the perception that one school district is better than another?

I am not a fan of vouchers and am more so playing devils advocate - but I think the argument against open enrollment should be just as vocal and remain consistent with the argument against vouchers. In my eyes one school system/community should not be able to rob from another....and that is what open enrollment does just as well as vouchers.

At the end of the day locally they both screw TPS.
The problem with this situation is that there are so many things wrong with how Ohio handles its voucher policy that arguments get crossed but make no mistake it is wrong on many levels.

1). I was talking my local property tax. My local property taxes, which are meant to stay in MY community, should not leave my community. Funding schools through property tax is bad enough (and illegal) and now we are doubling down on that bad idea and allowing MY property tax to walk to a private school in another community.

2). If the private schools were to abide by the same testing and bastardized grading system when it came to performance I would have far less heartburn. The FACT is they do not. This is not to say that private schools offer a lessor education but it is to say that if you are going to take one sect of schools and punish them for not living up to whatever standard you create, you should hold the school that benefits from that bastardized system to the same standard or standards.

3). I pointed out, through the info you provided, that CC collects $1,500,000 through public tax dollars. At what point do they become public and have to abide by public standards. For instance, the local public school must take everyone that walks through their door. The private does not. The public must find interpreters and ensure access and abide by Title IX. The public entity has to provide information on everyone, the private does not. Most private schools do not carry the same requirements of teachers either.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
The problem with this situation is that there are so many things wrong with how Ohio handles its voucher policy that arguments get crossed but make no mistake it is wrong on many levels.

1). I was talking my local property tax. My local property taxes, which are meant to stay in MY community, should not leave my community. Funding schools through property tax is bad enough (and illegal) and now we are doubling down on that bad idea and allowing MY property tax to walk to a private school in another community.

2). If the private schools were to abide by the same testing and bastardized grading system when it came to performance I would have far less heartburn. The FACT is they do not. This is not to say that private schools offer a lessor education but it is to say that if you are going to take one sect of schools and punish them for not living up to whatever standard you create, you should hold the school that benefits from that bastardized system to the same standard or standards.

3). I pointed out, through the info you provided, that CC collects $1,500,000 through public tax dollars. At what point do they become public and have to abide by public standards. For instance, the local public school must take everyone that walks through their door. The private does not. The public must find interpreters and ensure access and abide by Title IX. The public entity has to provide information on everyone, the private does not. Most private schools do not carry the same requirements of teachers either.

1. View the very small amount of your individual tax that would leave OCS as paying for the student and not the bricks and mortar - you would pay that portion regardless of where their chair sits. The community still benefits because someone who is a part of the community is benefitting.

2. Fix the testing/grading system - why require others to follow an acknowledged flawed system?

3. Make the voucher worth the full cost of educating the student

You know I couldn't resist.
 

Legacy

Active member
Vouchers are a way to circumvent the Constitution. It is indirectly giving tax money to fund private education, a violation of the 1st of First Amendment.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Thank you for the explanation.

Are you able to provide an example of where the $$$ comes from for an open enrollment student vs a voucher student in actual dollars? I am not sure if I am asking for something that is impossible or not. Not meaning it as a smart as request, really just want to understand.

I personally view all taxes as the same. Don't care it they are fed, state, local. At the end of the day it is money taken out of my paycheck/bank account.

https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-3317.017

The best I think I can do to explain state funding. It's a long read and I don't think it would be of much explanation to quote directly from it. Essentially, the state bases it's "share" of funds to districts based upon a base amount (roughly $6,000) per student that is multiplied by an index that is supposed to account for student population and a given district's ability to raise funds (i.e. property and income taxes) to fund itself. This $6,000 is the value of a high school EdChoice voucher and I'm at least led to believe this $6,000 is what a district receives when they receive an open-enrollment student from another district. This $6,000 is likewise what they lose out on when they lose an open enrollment student to a neighboring district.

As an example, generally speaking, the index is going to give a larger portion of that $6,000 per student base funding to a poorer urban district than to a wealthier suburban district. I can think of one specific example of a district more in my part of the state that I'd describe as being fairly poor by income standards that gets screwed badly by the funding mix because there's abundant farmland in their district, i.e. potential to raise funds via property tax, notwithstanding there's no chance in hell they could actually pass such a property windfall levy.

Like our school funding system that has been ruled unconstitutional, it is my personal belief via the wording regarding educational funding in the state constitution that the EdChoice program violates the Ohio constitution. IMO it is pretty clear that public funds via the state were intended to fund public ("common") schools, not an alternative service that's private.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-3317.017

The best I think I can do to explain state funding. It's a long read and I don't think it would be of much explanation to quote directly from it. Essentially, the state bases it's "share" of funds to districts based upon a base amount (roughly $6,000) per student that is multiplied by an index that is supposed to account for student population and a given district's ability to raise funds (i.e. property and income taxes) to fund itself. This $6,000 is the value of a high school EdChoice voucher and I'm at least led to believe this $6,000 is what a district receives when they receive an open-enrollment student from another district. This $6,000 is likewise what they lose out on when they lose an open enrollment student to a neighboring district.

As an example, generally speaking, the index is going to give a larger portion of that $6,000 per student base funding to a poorer urban district than to a wealthier suburban district. I can think of one specific example of a district more in my part of the state that I'd describe as being fairly poor by income standards that gets screwed badly by the funding mix because there's abundant farmland in their district, i.e. potential to raise funds via property tax, notwithstanding there's no chance in hell they could actually pass such a property windfall levy.

Like our school funding system that has been ruled unconstitutional, it is my personal belief via the wording regarding educational funding in the state constitution that the EdChoice program violates the Ohio constitution. IMO it is pretty clear that public funds via the state were intended to fund public ("common") schools, not an alternative service that's private.

Thank you for the explanation. Yes, I had found that yesterday read a few pages before I gave up wanting a cliff notes version.

My personal thoughts (not devils advocate) on this is that funds raised for a district should stay in that district. If private schools want to cherry pick and provide scholarships for any reason they see fit, than they should be able to do that with private funds that they raise on their own. From a sports standpoint that goes against the OHSAA rules so they would need to form an organization for schools with a similar structure.

Accept public money then you need to deal with the strings that are attached to it.
 

smurfyeah19

Well-known member
Thank you for the explanation. Yes, I had found that yesterday read a few pages before I gave up wanting a cliff notes version.

My personal thoughts (not devils advocate) on this is that funds raised for a district should stay in that district. If private schools want to cherry pick and provide scholarships for any reason they see fit, than they should be able to do that with private funds that they raise on their own. From a sports standpoint that goes against the OHSAA rules so they would need to form an organization for schools with a similar structure.

Accept public money then you need to deal with the strings that are attached to it.
Eh not a fan of this comment. PARENTS and their families send their kids to private schools to escape the poor environment that some public schools have. For those who don't have the means to move into a place like Perrysburg, their kids should not suffer if their talented and gifted in either academics or extra curriculars. Even looking back at my education growing up in a podunk farm town, the environment was safe but the curriculum and offerings don't come close to what suburban schools had.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
Eh not a fan of this comment. PARENTS and their families send their kids to private schools to escape the poor environment that some public schools have. For those who don't have the means to move into a place like Perrysburg, their kids should not suffer if their talented and gifted in either academics or extra curriculars. Even looking back at my education growing up in a podunk farm town, the environment was safe but the curriculum and offerings don't come close to what suburban schools had.

I work with several engineers, accountants etc. who attended TPS. The teachers, curriculum and facilities did not hold them back.

There is plenty of section 8 housing in the burbs if they choose that route.

I also mention that if private schools want to fund scholarship for any reason (covering gifted and talented or extra curriculars) then they should be able to offer them with no strings attached as long as they fund them themselves. OHSAA would not allow that, but nothing is stopping them from forming a new organization.
 

smurfyeah19

Well-known member
I work with several engineers, accountants etc. who attended TPS. The teachers, curriculum and facilities did not hold them back.

There is plenty of section 8 housing in the burbs if they choose that route.

I also mention that if private schools want to fund scholarship for any reason (covering gifted and talented or extra curriculars) then they should be able to offer them with no strings attached as long as they fund them themselves. OHSAA would not allow that, but nothing is stopping them from forming a new organization.
Of course people can excel in TPS, but to say it's as good of an environment as a place like St John's or Toledo Christian is insane. Also the OHSAA has nothing to do with this, this a state of Ohio policy
 
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