Northwest Ohio Realignment

ToledoGuy

Active member
Okay, so where are we at in all of the league changes/shuffling?

Yeah, I was just thinking the same, these are all of the confirmed moves:

TRAC (Potentially disbanding, 4 schools for each gender remaining)

-OUT-
Clay
Fremont Ross
Findlay
Whitmer

NLL (Grows to 11 teams)

-IN-
Clay
Fremont Ross
Findlay
Whitmer

-Out-
Maumee

NBC (Remains at 8 teams)

-IN-
Maumee
Oak Harbor

-Out-
Elmwood
Woodmore

SBC (Alignment TBD, Remains at 21 total teams)

-IN-
Woodmore

-Out-
Oak Harbor

BVC (Remains at 11 teams)

-IN-
Elmwood

-Out-
Cory Rawson

NWCC (up to 12 teams with other already planned additions)

-IN-
Cory Rawson

Discussions ongoing, maybe?
Swanton, Evergreen, Delta, Northwood, Ottawa Hills, Montpelier joining to create a new conference.
 

cjb56

Well-known member
Yeah, I was just thinking the same, these are all of the confirmed moves:

TRAC (Potentially disbanding, 4 schools for each gender remaining)

-OUT-
Clay
Fremont Ross
Findlay
Whitmer

NLL (Grows to 11 teams)

-IN-
Clay
Fremont Ross
Findlay
Whitmer

-Out-
Maumee

NBC (Remains at 8 teams)

-IN-
Maumee
Oak Harbor

-Out-
Elmwood
Woodmore

SBC (Alignment TBD, Remains at 21 total teams)

-IN-
Woodmore

-Out-
Oak Harbor

BVC (Remains at 11 teams)

-IN-
Elmwood

-Out-
Cory Rawson

NWCC (up to 12 teams with other already planned additions)

-IN-
Cory Rawson

Discussions ongoing, maybe?
Swanton, Evergreen, Delta, Northwood, Ottawa Hills, Montpelier joining to create a new conference.
Thanks much for the nice summary of where it’s at!
 

green_genes

Active member
^^^ As someone who was intimately involved in those decisions at three different institutions over the last decade, east is dead on...the highly selective school didn't care in the slightest how many AP Credits someone had, the moderately selective one didn't care, and the non-selective one was actually disappointed because they knew better than the others that the amount of credits a student takes from AP does typically have an inverse correlation with that student's performed at the University, and less selective institutions have to care far more about retention of students (due to their typically lower overall retention rates and funding models normally being disadvantageous in comparison to the more selective institutions). CCP is different, as those are obviously ollege courses...but having AP credit isn't exactly the indicator of success that many believe it to be.

I always laugh when Sylvania touts their amount of AP testing options...that's just saying your district is rich and has a lot of whiny parents...not that you're a great institution/district.
You're saying that Northwestern, Notre Dame, etc. don't care if an applicant takes AP classes? I know they don't accept them for college credit for the most part, but we were told that our son needed to take the toughest schedule available to him if he wanted to have a chance at those schools.

To be honest, one of the reasons we decided to bring him back to public school instead of staying at a private HS was that the easier class load would make his test scores stand out. He wound up turning down a couple of those highly selective schools and took advantage of the National Merit program instead.
 

ToledoGuy

Active member
You're saying that Northwestern, Notre Dame, etc. don't care if an applicant takes AP classes? I know they don't accept them for college credit for the most part, but we were told that our son needed to take the toughest schedule available to him if he wanted to have a chance at those schools.

To be honest, one of the reasons we decided to bring him back to public school instead of staying at a private HS was that the easier class load would make his test scores stand out. He wound up turning down a couple of those highly selective schools and took advantage of the National Merit program instead.

My comment was specifically pertaining to AP Credit or scores on AP exams, those don't matter one bit for a student's "admissibility". Yes, you should absolutely have your son or daughter in the most academically rigorous curriculum to showcase their abilities to ensure they are up to snuff for higher level academic institutions.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
You're saying that Northwestern, Notre Dame, etc. don't care if an applicant takes AP classes? I know they don't accept them for college credit for the most part, but we were told that our son needed to take the toughest schedule available to him if he wanted to have a chance at those schools.

It's an easy enough google for you to confirm on your own. You'll have to filter through all the College Board promos and synchophants to get at the facts but they are there to be seen.

I'm not selling for or against. Schools and districts use ignorance to sell that they are better because of the number of AP courses they offer or that they are an IB school. They're riding a product fad and ignorance of the public. At the college level, students matriculating from one school's AP course are not expected to be any better prepared than a student from a standard course of the same material. It's not a decider for entrance or exclusion.

AP and Int Bac are products, like a textbook is a product. It's a huge business with a lot of friendly handshakes at drinking conventions to sell the product.

The only difference between an AP course and its equivalent standard course, say AP Calc A/B and Calculus is ... nothing. They provide a ready made curriculum for a school/district. There are no special requirements to teach it. There are trainings but any warm body will do. There are trainings for any course product. I've taught both products. I've enjoyed both. I've taught most of the major textbooks, many online books and so on. Utlimately, it's the teacher that matters. Are they teaching from the text or are they using it as a reference? Do they know the material, where it came from and where it leads and can they convey that understanding.

A standardized curriculum can be a teacher teaching from the textbook as opposed to knowing the materials and teaching the course. The high IQ kids will do as they would have in their standard course and the struggling students will not get the prescriptive help that might lead them to understand they are as capable as the other kids in the room. Depends on the teacher, not the product. Those are MY observations.
 
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smurfyeah19

Active member
Is there any news on the NLL? I know I'm a broken record here, but that 11 team setup right now is a damn mess. I just am skeptical with how things have gone in the SBC that a two division/six team setup is better than an 8 team league. IMO the NLL is going to have to be a comprehensive in all sports except football to work
 

green_genes

Active member
My comment was specifically pertaining to AP Credit or scores on AP exams, those don't matter one bit for a student's "admissibility". Yes, you should absolutely have your son or daughter in the most academically rigorous curriculum to showcase their abilities to ensure they are up to snuff for higher level academic institutions.
Do you see a scenario where a student might be best served by open-enrolling at a school that offers fewer AP courses/has a lower academic reputation to game the system a little? When you're competing with 10,000 other kids to get into Stanford or Harvard and Perrysburg HS profiles just like every other affluent suburban HS in the midwest, would your application get a bump if you were a graduate of Lake, for example? I've seen a few kids from Perrysburg open enroll at Otsego/Rossford etc. for athletic purposes - I'm surprised no one has tried to do it for academics with the thought there'd be less competition for Valedictorian/Top 10/Top 10%.

Just curious how stuff like that factors in. My kid really liked ND after visiting the campus. He got wait-listed after applying EA and decided not to supplement his application with additional recommendations, etc. I told him as a kid who'd attended an all boys' Catholic school in Ohio, his profile was probably not unique for ND.
 

chs1971

Well-known member
Is there any news on the NLL? I know I'm a broken record here, but that 11 team setup right now is a damn mess. I just am skeptical with how things have gone in the SBC that a two division/six team setup is better than an 8 team league. IMO the NLL is going to have to be a comprehensive in all sports except football to work
A league of 8 is best.

Two divisions of 6 would work.

They only have 11, not 12.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Do you see a scenario where a student might be best served by open-enrolling at a school that offers fewer AP courses/has a lower academic reputation to game the system a little? When you're competing with 10,000 other kids to get into Stanford or Harvard and Perrysburg HS profiles just like every other affluent suburban HS in the midwest, would your application get a bump if you were a graduate of Lake, for example? I've seen a few kids from Perrysburg open enroll at Otsego/Rossford etc. for athletic purposes - I'm surprised no one has tried to do it for academics with the thought there'd be less competition for Valedictorian/Top 10/Top 10%.

Just curious how stuff like that factors in. My kid really liked ND after visiting the campus. He got wait-listed after applying EA and decided not to supplement his application with additional recommendations, etc. I told him as a kid who'd attended an all boys' Catholic school in Ohio, his profile was probably not unique for ND.

Sure if you think those schools can be "gamed," go for it. ;) Kidding aside, it's unlikely that kid is going to transfer into a situation where they can get "Valedictorian." Universities see though the top ten game. Every school has their straight A's students, their students with honors courses credits and so on. I was the master of the 93%. 94% seemed wasted effort. Same points towards GPA.

SAT, SAT, SAT. Activities. Community involvement.

A student from a lower performing school as you say, most likely not because of teacher corps but overall demographics, who gets the same board scores as a kid from O Hills, yes will get a bump. Particularly from the ivies because their endowments will allow them to enroll kids without the means. They understand investment. It's survival skills they're looking for. Their courses are rigorous and they're looking for kids that are not going to cave under pressure. Their looking for leaders. Leaders under difficult situations even moreso. Ok and sons and daughters of rich people and actors and the occasional Saudi Prince.

You want your kid to stand out? His missionary work will go much further to getting into ND than his high school's profile. But that's a pizz poor reason to do missionary work.

ND, pfft. Guess who's building a high school for the underserved in good ol ND South Bend? Not ND. Purdue. ;) Your kid is choosing a school because of the campus? These are the mentalities built at private school. sigh. EIB, STOP JUDGING people. I'm NOT judging, get back in your bottle. I'm telling Mom.
 
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ToledoGuy

Active member
^^^^ As always, east is on it. Most schools are looking at or straight up altering years old admissions policy to become test optional because of people gaming systems and districts teaching to the taking of tests instead of developing aptitude/mastery in areas and stoking interest in fields of study/topics earlier in life.

Think about what those schools will be looking at if they don't have a number to assess a candidate's abilities...involvement, community action, leadership qualities, mental fortitude, etc. If you think switching from a good school to a supposedly bad school would make you look BETTER by any of those measures, you're not on the right track.
 

Rangerfan

Well-known member
Northwestern accepted my daughter and gave her a scholarship because she was "diverse" (and had a great ACT and very good SAT).

Her diversity? She was in 4-H.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
I went to school with kids that were used to being up at 6am and working in the barn or field. I thought I knew what hard work was before I'd met them. I learned fast. Glad for your kid but kind of sad that what should be a mainstream is now a "diversity."
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
Do you see a scenario where a student might be best served by open-enrolling at a school that offers fewer AP courses/has a lower academic reputation to game the system a little? When you're competing with 10,000 other kids to get into Stanford or Harvard and Perrysburg HS profiles just like every other affluent suburban HS in the midwest, would your application get a bump if you were a graduate of Lake, for example? I've seen a few kids from Perrysburg open enroll at Otsego/Rossford etc. for athletic purposes - I'm surprised no one has tried to do it for academics with the thought there'd be less competition for Valedictorian/Top 10/Top 10%.

Just curious how stuff like that factors in. My kid really liked ND after visiting the campus. He got wait-listed after applying EA and decided not to supplement his application with additional recommendations, etc. I told him as a kid who'd attended an all boys' Catholic school in Ohio, his profile was probably not unique for ND.
A couple anecdotes:
1) When 1 of my school's students asked a ND admissions rep if they'd prefer that a student earn a B in an AP class or an A in a "regular" class, the rep responded "an A in the AP class." I don't recall if the kid got into ND, but he ended up going to Northwestern.

2) My brother is a professor at a Tier 1 liberal arts college in another part of the country. When I mentioned how kids join as many activities and clubs as possible to pad their college resume, he said most admissions employees don't care how many activities an applicant claims to participate in. Yes, they want to bring in as balanced/diverse of a freshman class as possible, but they want that balance to be comprised of X number of valedictorians, X number of All-state athletes, X number of team captains, X number of medal winners in the state art competition, etc. In other words, they want students who have proven that they possess abilities that the school can potentially market and capitalize on. At least that was the case up until a couple years ago. Many institutions have been forced to lower their standards in recent years in order to maintain enrollment, i.e. as a matter of survival.

Let the NW realignment discussion continue. HS league construction is fascinating to me.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
A couple anecdotes:
1) When 1 of my school's students asked a ND admissions rep if they'd prefer that a student earn a B in an AP class or an A in a "regular" class, the rep responded "an A in the AP class." I don't recall if the kid got into ND, but he ended up going to Northwestern.

2) My brother is a professor at a Tier 1 liberal arts college in..

eh hem lol
The correct question to ask would have been, would they prefer an A in an AP class or an A in an Honor class on the same subject. Unless the rep was working with college board, they would have said, "doesn't matter." ;) Without getting into the longer reasons why ( has to do with internal politics that goes on in), if your school offers both (and maybe even college credit plus) what you really want to look at is the teacher and method of delivery, in-person or remote.

Let the NW realignment discussion continue. HS league construction is fascinating to me.
aahh, the ones that have their say, then claim it's time to move on. SMH.



Class, feel free to pick up on whatever discussion you feel valuable. Obviously many are teachers, admins and parents with athletic kids heading to college. This anecdote. I was teaching a class. A husky older guy showed up at the door glaring at an even huskier kid and saying get in. That husky older guy was one of Meyer's assistant coaches. The next coach, not so much. Successful people know the priorities.

If your kid is hoping for entrance to a very competitive school, a school that is getting straight honors A (AP or otherwise) from schools all across the country. MY advice, It's the boards and the activities, particularly showing leadership and depending on the school, selflessness that they are looking for, even over those straight A's. They're looking for future alums that are going to contribute to the reputation and endowment of the school.
 
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jafo

Well-known member
The rumored Swanton/Northwood League "members" are certainly under no obligation to make any comments. It is surprising, however, that all of the "sources" and friends of someone on the inside have disappeared. :cool:
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
The rumored Swanton/Northwood League "members" are certainly under no obligation to make any comments. It is surprising, however, that all of the "sources" and friends of someone on the inside have disappeared. :cool:

You have any feelings different from what ToledoGuy posted at the top of this page? I'd think eveyone has gone home for the Summer and that all movement is done for the time being. This is a two year out thing,right? Who is in the biggest emergency? Anyone without a Fall schedule.
 

jafo

Well-known member
You have any feelings different from what ToledoGuy posted at the top of this page? I'd think eveyone has gone home for the Summer and that all movement is done for the time being. This is a two year out thing,right? Who is in the biggest emergency? Anyone without a Fall schedule.
To be honest, I was just trying to push us to page 100. :ROFLMAO:
 

CedarBuck92

Active member
The only difference between an AP course and its equivalent standard course, say AP Calc A/B and Calculus is ... nothing.
It was my experience that the AP course moved at a faster pace than the standard course and was therefore able to cover more material in same timeframe.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
It was my experience that the AP course moved at a faster pace than the standard course and was therefore able to cover more material in same timeframe.

No, there is no designated pacing to an AP course and as I wrote, no particular teaching requirements. AP tests are monitored in-house.. It's not an everyone goes to the local university to take a test as SATs used to be. Anything thought otherwise is just part of the sales program on the part of the high school and on the part of College Board. College Board is huge business as is any text-book or the myriad of SEL programs, classroom and school supplies for sale. Conventions, drinking, smoozing... Like any business.

I'll repeat MY opinion, A school selling they offer x number of AP courses as opposed to x number of Honors courses is just selling the program they think parents want to hear and in a way, saying they are less capable of developing and presenting curriculum taylored to their students (thought the competent teacher will do that anyways).

If there's a choice (AP, Honors, CCP, even regular) choose the teacher, choose the desired course. Taking an AP of no interest in-place of an elective in which a student has an interest and a skill? To each their own choice but "AP" designation means nothing to the University, they already have SATs, ACTs,.. and are starting to put those aside. Universities pride and sell themselves on having their own curriculum (though often they have to teach state), not something purchased out of a box. Why would they value one box curriculum over another?

Performance on boards, leadership, community involvment, demographics and "over-coming" are the path to competitive entrance. If they have a choice, they're going to choose someone who will represent and/or endow the University. They're looking for future performers, not past performers.
 
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duckunder

Active member
No, there is no designated pacing to an AP course and as I wrote, no particular teaching requirements. AP tests are monitored in-house.. It's not an everyone goes to the local university to take a test as SATs used to be. Anything thought otherwise is just part of the sales program on the part of the high school and on the part of College Board. College Board is huge business as is any text-book or the myriad of SEL programs, classroom and school supplies for sale. Conventions, drinking, smoozing... Like any business.

I'll repeat MY opinion, A school selling they offer x number of AP courses as opposed to x number of Honors courses is just selling the program they think parents want to hear and in a way, saying they are less capable of developing and presenting curriculum taylored to their students (thought the competent teacher will do that anyways).

If there's a choice (AP, Honors, CCP, even regular) choose the teacher, choose the desired course. Taking an AP of no interest in-place of an elective in which a student has an interest and a skill? To each their own choice but "AP" designation means nothing to the University, they already have SATs, ACTs,.. and are starting to put those aside. Universities pride and sell themselves on having their own curriculum (though often they have to teach state), not something purchased out of a box. Why would they value one box curriculum over another?

Performance on boards, leadership, community involvment, demographics and "over-coming" are the path to competitive entrance. If they have a choice, they're going to choose someone who will represent and/or endow the University. They're looking for future performers, not past performers.
You’ve been making a lot of good points, but as a school district administrator in a large suburban school district, there’s a HUGE difference between on-level and AP courses in my district (maybe not everywhere). We regularly encourage our students to be well-rounded, but to also challenge themselves in the classroom to prepare for the jump they’ll experience going from HS to college.

We have a large number of students taking dual credit as well, which is also encouraged. What we see is a huge difference in success of students in dual credit who have been previously taking advanced courses versus those that have not.

I also agree that the teacher has a lot to do with what you learn, but hopefully your district is looking for teachers that will differentiate properly and provide the appropriate instruction in order to pass an AP test. And, believe me, I know College Board is about $$ (much of my budget goes to them), but students can get college credit for passing AP exams, so all is not lost. It’s different at every college, obviously. I have two students currently at MIT and both received credit for the AP tests they passed, albeit the credit was transferred to elective courses not related to the major, engineering. It did help them save time and money sitting in some general courses. My past student that is at ND and the one that just graduated from Harvard also did not have their successes on AP tests ignored. The great part of this for them is that my district covers much of the cost of the AP exams, so they’re truly getting a financial benefit of challenging themselves and working hard.

My district didn’t have AP courses when I was in school decades ago and I wasn’t punished when applying to college, but I’d never discourage a student from appropriately challenging themselves.
 

CC Track Fan

Active member
This is a two year out thing,right?
What I heard is that the "New NLL" wants to start after next school year. The schools that are leaving the TRAC is saying that if the privates make them stay for the 2 years that after that they will not schedule them in any sport. Not sure if that boycott would include the current NLL schools but if it did that would leave them with basically no local schools of similar size to play. That would lead to a lot of long bus rides for all sports but some long school nights for sports like volleyball, baseball and softball.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
You’ve been making a lot of good points, but as a school district administrator in a large suburban school district, there’s a HUGE difference between on-level and AP courses

So your saying that in your high brow district, "English 4" is really "English 4 for Dummies" and you have an AP English for the 30 kids that wish to "challenge" themselves. ;)

No one is comparing what you call "on-level" and what the rest of us call, not the Honors class with the AP class, except the administrator having trouble keeping up. That must be a requirement to get the certification. I've long figured such. Much evidence to support it. Ah, nother topic to get us to 200 pages. :ROFLMAO:
 
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eastisbest

Well-known member
What I heard is that the "New NLL" wants to start after next school year. The schools that are leaving the TRAC is saying that if the privates make them stay for the 2 years that after that they will not schedule them in any sport. Not sure if that boycott would include the current NLL schools but if it did that would leave them with basically no local schools of similar size to play. That would lead to a lot of long bus rides for all sports but some long school nights for sports like volleyball, baseball and softball.

Would that travel be much different than most small town and rural schools really? If they form up with the De'troit Catholics and there will always be local and Michigan public schools that will schedule them OOC, probably about the same. They may have started this mess but there's no way they will end up suffering.
 

duckunder

Active member
If there's a choice (AP, Honors, CCP, even regular) choose the teacher, choose the desired course.
So your saying that in your high brow district, "English 4" is really "English 4 for Dummies" and you have an AP English for the 30 kids that wish to "challenge" themselves. ;)

No one is comparing what you call "on-level" and what the rest of us call, not the Honors class with the AP class, except the administrator having trouble keeping up. That must be a requirement to get the certification. I've long figured such. Much evidence to support it. Ah, nother topic to get us to 200 pages. :ROFLMAO:

I get the humor in your comment, but you did say choose the teacher or desired course in the “regular” class over AP. I disagree.

My district is far from “high brow,” but I enjoy it. We have a lot of hopeful first generation college students and they don’t always understand how to best get to where they say they want to go, so this is something we’re always talking about.

I’m also trying to get us to 100 pages, or 200 like you say. So adding to any conversation to move this forward is nice. It’s funny how this thread has evolved. Football season can’t come soon enough.
 
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