Ask The Ref?

AllSports12

Moderator
Great dialogue this morning Capt.......

We have a good number of officials on here that know their stuff.

Keep the questions coming !!
 
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TigerPaw

Well-known member
I know I am being knit picky but is a Block O hand gesture after a long td catch unsportsmanlike? To who, and by what definition? Fwiw was by an OSU commit.

Just wondering if/how the rule is stated, or whether largely subjective?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I know I am being knit picky but is a Block O hand gesture after a long td catch unsportsmanlike? To who, and by what definition? Fwiw was by an OSU commit.

Just wondering if/how the rule is stated, or whether largely subjective?

There's not a black and white answer to the question.

Making that gesture in and of itself would not be an unsporting act. That said, there are times when that gesture could be considered unsporting. For instance, the player beat an opponent that's signed with a famous opponent. (TTUN)

NFHS Rules outline what an unsporting act would be. However, there's not enough room in any rule book to specifically identify each act that is unsporting. Our State Mechanics Book more closely identifies acts that are legal and illegal, but again, there are others both legal and illegal that are not specifically noted.

It all depends......
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
In the college game today, there was a strange play that they let stand as called on the field. Curious what the rule would be in High School:

Wide receiver and defensive back go up for the ball. As they come down, there is jostling for the ball. Neither has taken full possession of the ball but it never hits the ground. The offensive player gets both feet in bounds and then lands with part of his body out of bounds as they continue to wrestle. Defensive player ultimately wrestles the ball away and is fully in bounds.

Is this incomplete because neither had full possession before one of them was out of bounds? Offensive reception because of simultaneous possession? Interception because the defensive player ultimately possessed the ball?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
In the college game today, there was a strange play that they let stand as called on the field. Curious what the rule would be in High School:

Wide receiver and defensive back go up for the ball. As they come down, there is jostling for the ball. Neither has taken full possession of the ball but it never hits the ground. The offensive player gets both feet in bounds and then lands with part of his body out of bounds as they continue to wrestle. Defensive player ultimately wrestles the ball away and is fully in bounds.

Is this incomplete because neither had full possession before one of them was out of bounds? Offensive reception because of simultaneous possession? Interception because the defensive player ultimately possessed the ball?
Neither player in possession
Player touches the ball while touching out of bounds (still no possession)

Incomplete pass
 

jmog

Well-known member
On a kick off or punt, one player on the receiving team calls for a fair catch but it is caught by a different player on the return team.

Is this a penalty or is it permissible to call fair catch for your teammate?
 

bb9

Member
On a kick off or punt, one player on the receiving team calls for a fair catch but it is caught by a different player on the return team.

Is this a penalty or is it permissible to call fair catch for your teammate?
It's legal. The player who called the fair catch may not block however.
 

chs1971

Well-known member
On a kick off or punt, one player on the receiving team calls for a fair catch but it is caught by a different player on the return team.

Is this a penalty or is it permissible to call fair catch for your teammate?
Not a penalty, and sort of. If I signal fair catch I get protection, and if I catch it, it's a fair catch. If I signal fair catch and you catch it, it is not a fair catch and you do not get protection, but the ball is immediately dead anyways because of my signal.

The difference is if it is a fair catch, R can ask to spot the ball anywhere between the hashmarks, and put the ball in play by snap or free kick.

So there is a lot going on.
 
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jmog

Well-known member
Not a penalty, and sort of. If I signal fair catch I get protection, and if I catch it, it's a fair catch. If I signal fair catch and you catch it, it is not a fair catch and you do not get protection, but the ball is immediately dead anyways because of my signal.

Also, if it is a fair catch, R can ask to spot the ball anywhere between the hashmarks, and put the ball in play by snap or free kick.

So there is a lot going on.
So if I signal a fair catch and my teammate catches it he can be drilled as long as it is before the whistle?
 

hsfan60

Active member
The Free Blocking Zone is defined under Rule 2-17

ART. 1 . . . The free-blocking zone is a rectangular area extending laterally 4 yards either side of the spot of the snap and 3 yards behind each line of scrimmage. A player is in the free-blocking zone when any part of his body is in the zone at the snap.
ART. 2 . . . Blocking below the waist is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:
a. All players involved in the blocking are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.
b. The contact is in the zone.
ART. 3 . . . Blocking in the back is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:
a. By offensive linemen who are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.
b. Against defensive players who are in the zone at the snap.
c. The contact is in the zone.
ART. 4 . . . The free-blocking zone disintegrates and the exception for a player to block below the waist and/or the exception for an offensive lineman to block in the back is not to continue after the ball has left the zone.

As noted in Article 4, once the ball has left the zone (shotgun snap) the zone and the exceptions to blocking below the waist and in the back are no longer in effect.

In general, tackle-to-tackle is the rule of thumb. There are teams that employ blocking schemes with every large splits that place the tackles outside the FBZ.

In the instance of a shotgun snap, any block below the waist must be immediate, as by nature of the play, any delay in the block is certain to occur after the ball has left the FBZ.
Thanks!!!
 

chs1971

Well-known member
So if I signal a fair catch and my teammate catches it he can be drilled as long as it is before the whistle?
He can be tackled just like any other punt or kick returner who does not signal for a fair catch. By rule though your teammate is a defenseless player and every part of the "drilling" must be legal contact.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
So if I signal a fair catch and my teammate catches it he can be drilled as long as it is before the whistle?
He can be tackled just like any other punt or kick returner who does not signal for a fair catch. By rule though your teammate is a defenseless player and every part of the "drilling" must be legal contact.
Here is a Case Book play that demonstrates the question you have posed and chs1971 has answered...

6.5.3 SITUATION:
R1 signals for a fair catch of a scrimmage kick by K1. Teammate R2 catches the kick and is tackled immediately by K1 who did or did not have a chance to see the signal. The contact which was not a personal foul occurred before the covering official sounded his whistle. R2 fumbles when tackled and the ball is recovered by K2.

RULING: The ball became dead when it was caught by R2. The contact by K1 was not a foul because R2 did not signal for a fair catch. R2 fumbled a dead ball and there could be no recovery by K2.

COMMENT: Contacting a receiver who did not give a fair-catch signal or contacting a receiver who has given a signal but is contacted where he cannot make a fair catch, is not a foul unless the contact is judged by the game official to be a personal foul. The receiver is not afforded special protection in such situations. Members of the kicking team have the responsibility for knowing when the ball is dead. If a kicker could not have seen a fair-catch signal made by the teammate of the receiver, there is no foul. However, if he could have seen the signal, he does not have license to contact the receiver. (4-2-2g)


Now we can further add to the fun by noting that under Rule 6-5-5 it is a Delay of Game foul for any receiver to advance the ball after a valid or invalid fair catch signal is given by any R player. (and please, we aren't talking a step or two taken by R here)

Remember all this when you are sitting in the stands while the officiating crew discusses situations "for 10 minutes"
 

jmog

Well-known member
Another clarification on a kickoff.

If a kickoff is kicked high in the air but only medium deep. High enough that the kickoff team has time to run down and catch it in the air.

Is that legal after 10 yards or does the ball have to hit the ground first given that the receiving team has to have the chance to catch a ball in the air first?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Another clarification on a kickoff.

If a kickoff is kicked high in the air but only medium deep. High enough that the kickoff team has time to run down and catch it in the air.

Is that legal after 10 yards or does the ball have to hit the ground first given that the receiving team has to have the chance to catch a ball in the air first?
Under NFHS Rules what you described is a foul on the kicking team for Kick Catch Interference. It makes no difference whether or not a player from R is in position to make a play on the ball.
 
5 players in the backfield was called on this muddle huddle 2 pt conversion:View attachment 4769
The rule for being on the line is 2.32: ART. 9 . . .A lineman is any A player who is facing his opponent’s goal line with the line of his shoulders approximately parallel thereto and withhis head or foot breaking an imaginary plane drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage through the waist of the snapper when the ball is snapped.

This picture is a horrible angle, but it appears to me that only the snapper is on the line of scrimmage. Assuming the line of scrimmage is the 3 yard line, most of the linemen on the right side of the screen are almost standing on the 5 yard line. The Line Judge and Linesman looking down the line of scrimmage can easily see if those guys on the right are on the line (determined as whether their head is even with the snapper's waist or not).
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Again, this still picture, like all still pictures, captures a split second in time. It tells us nothing.

We cannot judge anything from this.
 
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chs1971

Well-known member
There are little things that happen during a regular scrimmage play that a good official might ignore or give a warning, but if it is a trick play or something unusual had better be perfect.

Just sayin'.
 

1055FAN

New member
Again, this still picture, like all still pictures, captures a split second in time. It tells us nothing.

We cannot judge anything from this.
I apologize, Nelsonville tv cable’s instant replay cameras were out of commission Friday night.

Pitch left to the rb, lone wideout to the left blocks, snapper who’s shoulders were not parallel with los only snaps the ball, line to the right and #20moves towards the snapper by the time the rb crosses the line.

Looks like now after reading Reggie’s comment above the line was too far back, the end guy should of set the other 5 linemen with the line judge. They snapped it quickly thinking they were set trying to catch the late defender coming in while in the neutral zone. The offense didn’t get that call, couldn’t tell in the replay if the defender made it across in time. Lots of stuff going on during the play.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I apologize, Nelsonville tv cable’s instant replay cameras were out of commission Friday night.

Pitch left to the rb, lone wideout to the left blocks, snapper who’s shoulders were not parallel with los only snaps the ball, line to the right and #20moves towards the snapper by the time the rb crosses the line.

Looks like now after reading Reggie’s comment above the line was too far back, the end guy should of set the other 5 linemen with the line judge. They snapped it quickly thinking they were set trying to catch the late defender coming in while in the neutral zone. The offense didn’t get that call, couldn’t tell in the replay if the defender made it across in time. Lots of stuff going on during the play.
And while this does not address whether or not there were 5 players in the backfield at the snap, what you described is an illegal snap due to the positioning of the snapper's shoulders.

Dead ball foul for an illegal snap and nothing else that happened is relevant.
 

1055FAN

New member
And while this does not address whether or not there were 5 players in the backfield at the snap, what you described is an illegal snap due to the positioning of the snapper's shoulders.

Dead ball foul for an illegal snap and nothing
else that happened is relevant.
What rule specifies the position of the snapper’s shoulders?

Btw, appreciate the feedback, just trying to understand this call on the field better.
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
What rule specifies the position of the snapper’s shoulders?
Rule 2-32-14

ART. 14 . . .
A snapper is the player who is facing his opponent's goal line with his shoulders approximately parallel thereto and who snaps the ball. In a scrimmage-kick formation, the snapper remains a snapper until he has had a reasonable opportunity to regain his balance and protect himself or until he blocks or moves to otherwise participate in the play.

Btw, appreciate the feedback, just trying to understand this call on the field better.
These are good questions and the exact reason why Yappi created this forum.
 

1055FAN

New member
Rule 2-32-14

ART. 14 . . .
A snapper is the player who is facing his opponent's goal line with his shoulders approximately parallel thereto and who snaps the ball. In a scrimmage-kick formation, the snapper remains a snapper until he has had a reasonable opportunity to regain his balance and protect himself or until he blocks or moves to otherwise participate in the play.



These are good questions and the exact reason why Yappi created this forum.
Thanks for the response, you can google the answer you want and argue behind a screen but at the end of the day you guys do the homework and provide the correct answer. Much appreciated.

Long story short we didn’t lose because of this call, if left as is it would of put the game into OT. Can easily blame this call but after a little bit analysis it really brings everything into perspective. Thanks, no further questions.
 

ratterbox

Member
Why is it not a rule that HS fields MUST have a play . I see big moneymaking programs that do not.
Seems like Home team never gets a delay of game while visitors do
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Why is it not a rule that HS fields MUST have a play . I see big moneymaking programs that do not.
Seems like Home team never gets a delay of game while visitors do
It's not a requirement because in reality, it's not a problem.

Once it becomes a problem, it will be addressed.
 

bb9

Member
Why is it not a rule that HS fields MUST have a play . I see big moneymaking programs that do not.
Seems like Home team never gets a delay of game while visitors do
As a back judge, I promise you that:

1. I typically do not have enough time to discern whether the offense is the home team or not

And

2. If there is a delay of game, the team definitely earned it
 

USA70PP

Well-known member
Not a question that needs an answer, but I'm watching Akron and Miami(Ohio). Akron QB was sacked almost on the goal line. They have the ball inside the one yard line. Play clock is running down and instead taking a half the distance, a foot maybe, they call a time out. Why?
 
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