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JackEd

New member
Playoff game last night. Losing coach was frustrated after what was ruled a Touchback. In between change of possession said head coach is out past the numbers yelling at the white hat and is given a unsportsmanlike penalty (I don’t know what was said). My question why wouldn’t the sideline official on that side penalize the coach or try to keep him off the field?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Playoff game last night. Losing coach was frustrated after what was ruled a Touchback. In between change of possession said head coach is out past the numbers yelling at the white hat and is given a unsportsmanlike penalty (I don’t know what was said). My question why wouldn’t the sideline official on that side penalize the coach or try to keep him off the field?
Pure speculation as to why the wing didn't respond, which is why we don't discuss the why's and why not's of specific plays on here.
 

Indian1961

New member
I sit in the same seat every home game and so I have the same view each game. Never noticed this before. When preparing for a kick off the official would hand the ball to the kicker, run back to his position for the kick off, but always “sneak a peek” down the 35 yard line(behind the kicking team). What is he checking? Not long enough look to count players.
 

bb9

Member
I sit in the same seat every home game and so I have the same view each game. Never noticed this before. When preparing for a kick off the official would hand the ball to the kicker, run back to his position for the kick off, but always “sneak a peek” down the 35 yard line(behind the kicking team). What is he checking? Not long enough look to count players.
Making sure they are inside the 35 yard line. I was told not to do this in an observation a few years ago so I don't anymore.
 

Indian1961

New member
Making sure they are inside the 35 yard line. I was told not to do this in an observation a few years ago so I don't anymore.
I guess this would be to prevent getting a running start. If they are outside do they get instructed to move or penalized for illegal formation?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I guess this would be to prevent getting a running start. If they are outside do they get instructed to move or penalized for illegal formation?
If anyone other than the kicker starts with their foot on or past the line 5 yards behind the free kick line, the ball is dead once the ball is kicked and a 5 yard penalty is assessed to the kicking team.
 

chs1971

Well-known member
Why doesn't high low blocks get called more in HS. I was at a game the other day and watched it happen multiple times
The "low" has to start at or below the knee. I rarely see that in games or on video.

(I knew I should have added that the first time.)
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Why doesn't high low blocks get called more in HS. I was at a game the other day and watched it happen multiple times
Chop blocks are called. Maybe not as much as you think they should be called, but they are called.

"Chop block is a combination block by two or more teammates against an opponent other than the runner, with or without delay, where one of the blocks is low (at the knee or below) and one of the blocks is high (above the knee)"
 
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teamnopunt

New member
Can you help me understand fumbling forwards out of bounds? We had a situation last week where a player was stopped well short of a first down on a 3rd down scramble and "fumbled" the ball about 5 yards forwards and out of bounds. They were given the out of bounds spot and a first down by (personal opinion) an officiating crew I trust.

My questions are, does intent matter here? It seems like he could've done it on purpose given the circumstances so they don't have to punt.
Does the down matter here? Could you still do it on fourth down?

What's the downside to coaching guys to roll the ball forwards out of bounds once they are wrapped up?
 
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MSL

Member
Can you help me understand fumbling forwards out of bounds? We had a situation last week where a player was stopped well short of a first down on a 3rd down scramble and "fumbled" the ball about 5 yards forwards and out of bounds. They were given the out of bounds spot and a first down by (personal opinion) an officiating crew I trust.

My questions are, does intent matter here? It sure seems as though he is rolling the ball forward so they don't have to punt.
Does the down matter here? Could you still do it on fourth down?

What's the downside to coaching guys to roll the ball forwards out of bounds once they are wrapped up?
NFHS:

If the crew rules that it was intentional the foul is for an illegal forward pass. It would have to be stupidly obvious to rule this, however.

A forward fumble out of bounds belongs to Team A at the spot where it went out of bounds. Your officiating crew was correct.

There is no fourth down fumble rule. The rules are the same on all four downs and regardless of the clock.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Can you help me understand fumbling forwards out of bounds? We had a situation last week where a player was stopped well short of a first down on a 3rd down scramble and "fumbled" the ball about 5 yards forwards and out of bounds. They were given the out of bounds spot and a first down by (personal opinion) an officiating crew I trust.

My questions are, does intent matter here? It sure seems as though he is rolling the ball forward so they don't have to punt.
Does the down matter here? Could you still do it on fourth down?

What's the downside to coaching guys to roll the ball forwards out of bounds once they are wrapped up?
By definition, a fumble is any loss of player possession other than by handing, passing or legal kick.

A team in possession of the ball remains in possession until the opponent gains possession. (in other words a ball that is fumbled by A24 remains in possession of Team A until that ball is possessed in bounds by a player from Team B)

Unlike the NFL, (Ken Stabler/Dave Casper/Raider Rule) there are no special provisions when a ball is fumbled forward. The dead ball spot is the spot where the down ends regardless of who recovers the fumble or if the fumble goes out of bounds. If that spot is beyond the line-to-gain and remains in possession of Team A, then a new series of downs is awarded.

There is no penalty for intentionally fumbling the ball. (again see definition of fumble above) The downside of intentionally fumbling the ball lies directly with both ends of the football...... Who knows where that thing is gonna bounce?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
NFHS:

If the crew rules that it was intentional the foul is for an illegal forward pass. It would have to be stupidly obvious to rule this, however.

A forward fumble out of bounds belongs to Team A at the spot where it went out of bounds. Your officiating crew was correct.

There is no fourth down fumble rule. The rules are the same on all four downs and regardless of the clock.
Careful !!

There is no prohibition for intentionally fumbling the ball. There's a big difference between passing the ball and fumbling the ball.

And yes, based on the play described, the crew was spot on in their decision.
 
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SNUGGLES

Member
was at a playoff game last week and saw a call that I was curious about. The offensive team ran playaction and rolled the qb out of the pocket. The center pulled and met the Linebacker at the line of scrimmage. The center made a great block on the linebacker and continued to drive him about 4 yards down the field and pancaked him and the qb completed the pass for a 1st down. A flag came out and the call was illegal man down field and it was called on the center. Is this the correct call ? Thanks
 

AllSports12

Moderator
was at a playoff game last week and saw a call that I was curious about. The offensive team ran playaction and rolled the qb out of the pocket. The center pulled and met the Linebacker at the line of scrimmage. The center made a great block on the linebacker and continued to drive him about 4 yards down the field and pancaked him and the qb completed the pass for a 1st down. A flag came out and the call was illegal man down field and it was called on the center. Is this the correct call ? Thanks
As described, the call was correct if the pass crossed the line of scrimmage.

The neutral zone can be expanded on any play up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage. This allows for the lineman to drive back a defender who is at the line of scrimmage. ( the neutral zone cannot be expanded into the end zone)

In your play, driving the defender back 4 yards puts him past the expanded neutral zone and makes him illegally down field. (again, if the pass crossed the line of scrimmage)
 

SNUGGLES

Member
As described, the call was correct if the pass crossed the line of scrimmage.

The neutral zone can be expanded on any play up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage. This allows for the lineman to drive back a defender who is at the line of scrimmage. ( the neutral zone cannot be expanded into the end zone)

In your play, driving the defender back 4 yards puts him past the expanded neutral zone and makes him illegally down field. (again, if the pass crossed the line of scrimmage)
Thank You
 

hsfan60

Active member
Chop blocks are called. Maybe not as much as you think they should be called, but they are called.

"Chop block is a combination block by two or more teammates against an opponent other than the runner, with or without delay, where one of the blocks is low (at the knee or below) and one of the blocks is high (above the knee)"
What is the full language in the book about blocking below the waist in the neutral zone?

I think initial contact tackle to tackle is still legal correct, by one blocker directly to a defend lined up there also?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
The Free Blocking Zone is defined under Rule 2-17

ART. 1 . . . The free-blocking zone is a rectangular area extending laterally 4 yards either side of the spot of the snap and 3 yards behind each line of scrimmage. A player is in the free-blocking zone when any part of his body is in the zone at the snap.
ART. 2 . . . Blocking below the waist is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:
a. All players involved in the blocking are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.
b. The contact is in the zone.
ART. 3 . . . Blocking in the back is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:
a. By offensive linemen who are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.
b. Against defensive players who are in the zone at the snap.
c. The contact is in the zone.
ART. 4 . . . The free-blocking zone disintegrates and the exception for a player to block below the waist and/or the exception for an offensive lineman to block in the back is not to continue after the ball has left the zone.

As noted in Article 4, once the ball has left the zone (shotgun snap) the zone and the exceptions to blocking below the waist and in the back are no longer in effect.

In general, tackle-to-tackle is the rule of thumb. There are teams that employ blocking schemes with every large splits that place the tackles outside the FBZ.

In the instance of a shotgun snap, any block below the waist must be immediate, as by nature of the play, any delay in the block is certain to occur after the ball has left the FBZ.
 
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Gnep27

New member
Making sure they are inside the 35 yard line. I was told not to do this in an observation a few years ago so I don't anymore.
Why would you be told not to do this if it is a violation if players are beyond the line. Wouldn't it be encouraged to check to make sure everyone is in legal formation? Thanks
 

jeepinchad

New member
Why would you be told not to do this if it is a violation if players are beyond the line. Wouldn't it be encouraged to check to make sure everyone is in legal formation? Thanks
It may have been that the observer felt it was better to get to your position and then officiate from that view. It's not a violation until the ball is made ready for play... and if the ball is kicked before I make it to the sideline, we either have a team that didn't wait for the ready for play whistle or a referee/whitehat that I need to have a conversation with at halftime/after the game. :)
 

SidneyHigh

New member
Ok, after seeing the on side kick by Ohio State...does the ball have to hit the ground 1st to be considered a free ball and therefore recovered by the kicking team?
From what l saw, it looked as though the ball was kicked high, more than 10 yards and to the sideline which it was then caught by OSU.
Sidney actually pulled this off illegally in 2001. I think the opponent was Fairmont. They did it the same exact way as OSU over the weekend. None of the refs knew of the rule regarding the ball hitting the ground first for high school.
 

bb9

Member
Why would you be told not to do this if it is a violation if players are beyond the line. Wouldn't it be encouraged to check to make sure everyone is in legal formation? Thanks
The observer (State Director of Development for Officials) said that we should be able to see it from our position on the 40.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
View attachment 4726

This has always puzzled me.
White is the running back.

Q: Stiff arm or facemask?
It is not a foul to have a hand on an opponent's face mask.

It is a face mask foul if a player grasps an opponent’s face mask, any edge of a helmet opening, chin strap, or a tooth and mouth protector attached to the face mask and twist, turn or pull the face mask, helmet opening, chin strap or a tooth and mouth protector attached to the face mask; or incidentally grasp an opponent’s face mask, helmet opening, chin strap or a tooth and mouth protector attached to the face mask.

This picture captures a split second in time and freezes it. You don't see the whole act. It may have happened so fast that the fingers release before the covering official(s) sees this..... or the view of covering official(s) was obstructed by other players...// or maybe they just missed it, etc.......

It's why still pics are not good examples to use to show missed or correct calls by officials.
 

Captain_Cavman

Active member
It is not a foul to have a hand on an opponent's face mask.

It is a face mask foul if a player grasps an opponent’s face mask, any edge of a helmet opening, chin strap, or a tooth and mouth protector attached to the face mask and twist, turn or pull the face mask, helmet opening, chin strap or a tooth and mouth protector attached to the face mask; or incidentally grasp an opponent’s face mask, helmet opening, chin strap or a tooth and mouth protector attached to the face mask.

This picture captures a split second in time and freezes it. You don't see the whole act. It may have happened so fast that the fingers release before the covering official(s) sees this..... or the view of covering official(s) was obstructed by other players...// or maybe they just missed it, etc.......

It's why still pics are not good examples to use to show missed or correct calls by officials.
Agreed about the still photos and split second judgement.

I'm sure the rules in the NFL are different but it always bothered me when linemen get flagged for "hands to the face" yet you can stiff arm a defenders chin up to the sky. Sounds like double standard.

Then add most RBs "lead" with their helmet. 😉
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Agreed about the still photos and split second judgement.

I'm sure the rules in the NFL are different but it always bothered me when linemen get flagged for "hands to the face" yet you can stiff arm a defenders chin up to the sky. Sounds like double standard.

Then add most RBs "lead" with their helmet. 😉
Difference being that we are talking about a runner here. The defender is using means to bring that runner down that cannot be used against an opponent without the ball. (hold, contact below the waist, high and low hits by multiple opponents, etc)

Allowing a runner to stiff arm the opponent provides exactly what rules are intended to do.....

.... a competitive balance between the offense and defense,
 
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Captain_Cavman

Active member
Difference being that we are talking about a runner here. The defender is using means to bring that runner down that cannot be used against an opponent without the ball. (hold, contact below the waist, high and low hits by multiple opponents, etc)

Allowing a runner to stiff arm the opponent provides exactly what rules are intended to do.....

.... a competitive balance between the offense and defense,
So in a sense, if an O lineman is not allowed to hold, he therefore is not allowed to use the "stiff arm" technique?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
So in a sense, if an O lineman is not allowed to hold, he therefore is not allowed to use the "stiff arm" technique?
In an open hand blocking technique, the hands shall be at or below the shoulders of the blocker and the opponent, except when the opponent squats, ducks or submarines during the block or after the blocker is committed to his charge. (Rule 2-3-2b4)

Makes the stiff arm for anyone other than the runner illegal. (Illegal Use of Hands -- 10yds)
 
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