Ask The Ref?


Just saw this on Twitter.
Defense has only 10 men on the field when the is snapped. Runner makes a long run before being tackled by a player who enters the field well after the ball is snapped and after the runner approaches his area.
Several posters, of course, praise the defender for the hit and say it was legal. Some even said the defender was in the field of play when the ball was snapped, but if you watch the play, he wasn't.
Is it legal for a player to come onto the field during a live play after the ball is snapped?
 

AllSports12

Moderator

Just saw this on Twitter.
Defense has only 10 men on the field when the is snapped. Runner makes a long run before being tackled by a player who enters the field well after the ball is snapped and after the runner approaches his area.
Several posters, of course, praise the defender for the hit and say it was legal. Some even said the defender was in the field of play when the ball was snapped, but if you watch the play, he wasn't.
Is it legal for a player to come onto the field during a live play after the ball is snapped?
Illegal participation. 15 yds assessed from the end of the run. Also, the young fella has disqualified himself from any further action in this case.

It seems that at least one defender had an angle on the runner. If the officials judge that the illegal act prevented a touchdown they could have awarded the runner a touchdown. Rule 9-9 unfair acts
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
This happened last night in the Olentangy Berlin / Thomas Worthington game

TW 4th and 19, punts toward sideline, ball bounces around a little, rolls out of bounds. A flag is down near that far sideline.

Refs signal what we thought?? was Illegal Participation (and later heard rumored that it was an accusation of 12 men on the field).

Refs give the ball back to the punting team and march off 15 yards, give them an automatic first down.

Hudl film review clearly shows only 11 players on the field, which is irrelevant, but is this the correct result for 12 men on the field, if that's what was called? Is there some other obscure call that would have had this result? (there was definitely not roughing).
If you are asking if illegal Participation is a 15 yard penalty, the answer is yes. It is not an automatic first down.
 
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sig4969

Member
Do you think aiding the runner will be a penalty again?
One College quarterback went down this weekend when running this play

I think this was made not a penalty because it was not being called.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Do you think aiding the runner will be a penalty again?
One College quarterback went down this weekend when running this play

I think this was made not a penalty because it was not being called.
There hasn't been a change. Helping the runner is still a foul. (Rule 9-1)
 

AllSports12

Moderator
What is the rule on Horse Collar?
Rule 9-4 -- Illegal Personal Contact

ART. 3 . . . No player or non-player shall:

k) Grab the inside back or side collar, or the name plate area (directly below the back collar), of either the shoulder pads or the jersey of the runner and subsequently pull (backward or sideward) that opponent to the ground (Horse-collar), even if possession is lost. The horse-collar foul is enforced as a live-ball foul.


The runner must be pulled to the ground backwards or sideways.

The play in the Massillon/McKinley game that has been debated was not an example of an illegal horse collar tackle.
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Ok thanks . Is it a penalty in College ?
Like High School, it can be...... and then, it can be illegal. ;)

Rule: 9-3-2


Interfering for or Helping the Ball Carrier or Passer

ARTICLE 2
. a. The ball carrier or passer may use his hand or arm to ward off or push opponents.

b. The ball carrier shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, pull, or lift him to assist him in forward progress. (A.R. 9.3.2.I)

c. Teammates of the ball carrier or passer may interfere for him by blocking but shall not use interlocked interference by grasping or encircling one another in any manner while contacting an opponent.

PENALTY - 5 yards

**********************************************************************************************************************************

Interfering for or Helping the Ball Carrier or Passer ARTICLE 2

Approved Ruling 9-3-2

I -
In trying to gain yardage, ball carrier A44 is slowed by defensive players attempting to make the tackle. Back A22 (a) puts his hands on the buttocks of A44 and pushes him forward; (b) pushes the pile of teammates who begin to surround A44; (c) grabs the arm of A44 and tries to pull him forward for more yardage.

RULING: (a) and (b) Legal. It is not a foul to push the ball carrier or the pile. (c) Foul for assisting the runner. Five-yard penalty with three-and-one enforcement. (Rule 9-3-2-b)
 

firstdown

Member
4th and 20 from the 40. Ball is snapped way over the punters head. He retrieves it inside the five and sees he has a little time so he boots it out to about the 30. The defense may or may not have goten a piece of the ball as it was kicked. Can the kicking team advance the ball as it was not even close to crossing the line of scrimmage.
 

bb9

Member
4th and 20 from the 40. Ball is snapped way over the punters head. He retrieves it inside the five and sees he has a little time so he boots it out to about the 30. The defense may or may not have goten a piece of the ball as it was kicked. Can the kicking team advance the ball as it was not even close to crossing the line of scrimmage.
Yes
 

AllSports12

Moderator
4th and 20 from the 40. Ball is snapped way over the punters head. He retrieves it inside the five and sees he has a little time so he boots it out to about the 30. The defense may or may not have goten a piece of the ball as it was kicked. Can the kicking team advance the ball as it was not even close to crossing the line of scrimmage.
To expand, they can advance by running the ball, legally passing the ball, or they may kick it again.

Whether or not the ball was touched when it was originally kicked is irrelevant here.
 
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gocards

This is the year
Colerain/Fairfield game:
Colerain got the first possession in overtime and scored a touchdown. Fairfield was flagged for a personal foul after the play. After long deliberation Fairfield started their possession on the 20 yard line. Shouldn't the penalty have been assessed on their possession and they start on the 35 yard line. It didn't make a difference in the end but could have been huge. As it turned out the penalty was not accessed at all.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Colerain/Fairfield game:
Colerain got the first possession in overtime and scored a touchdown. Fairfield was flagged for a personal foul after the play. After long deliberation Fairfield started their possession on the 20 yard line. Shouldn't the penalty have been assessed on their possession and they start on the 35 yard line. It didn't make a difference in the end but could have been huge. As it turned out the penalty was not accessed at all.
When a dead ball foul occurs after a touchdown has been scored in overtime, the enforcement spot of that foul is on the try.
 
In the Rossford/Eastwood game last week Eastwood ran a play short of the line to gain on 3rd down. I don't remember the exact circumstances, but the officials spent a few minutes discussing something with the Eastwood sideline and when play restarted the down marker was still at 3rd down. The Rossford coaches, of course, went nuts and were on the verge of calling a timeout when the officials convened to discuss the issue and agreed that it should be 4th down.

Is there a mechanism for verifying things like this? I assume the uniformed officials on the field are the only "real" officials and can't rely on something like a play-by-play sheet kept in the press box to confirm down and distance. Is this just a matter of someone "catching it" and if they don't, there's no recourse?

Do they have to confer and discuss a situation if a coach requests it? Obviously, coaches are yelling about calls multiple times a game. What determines when a call is revisited or one of the officials "asks for help" from another at the request of a coach? Just curious about how stuff like this works. They got it right and Eastwood ran for a first down on a terrible spot (just kidding).
 

AllSports12

Moderator
In the Rossford/Eastwood game last week Eastwood ran a play short of the line to gain on 3rd down. I don't remember the exact circumstances, but the officials spent a few minutes discussing something with the Eastwood sideline and when play restarted the down marker was still at 3rd down. The Rossford coaches, of course, went nuts and were on the verge of calling a timeout when the officials convened to discuss the issue and agreed that it should be 4th down.

Is there a mechanism for verifying things like this? I assume the uniformed officials on the field are the only "real" officials and can't rely on something like a play-by-play sheet kept in the press box to confirm down and distance. Is this just a matter of someone "catching it" and if they don't, there's no recourse?

Do they have to confer and discuss a situation if a coach requests it? Obviously, coaches are yelling about calls multiple times a game. What determines when a call is revisited or one of the officials "asks for help" from another at the request of a coach? Just curious about how stuff like this works. They got it right and Eastwood ran for a first down on a terrible spot (just kidding).
While Ohio assigns the responsibility for having the correct down and distance (to the line to gain) to the Linesman, all 5 officials (in my opinion) must know this information, particularly the Umpire as he is also charged with the primary responsibility for all penalty enforcements.

Now, in the case of confusion or disagreement, the crew should consult among themselves to arrive at a consensus. (in theory, it should be short and sweet) They can utilize some resources to assist them, one being the chain crew as they are a part of the officiating crew.

While other resources may be considered, the final decision is going to have to come from the men and women on the field. Simply saying "Fred in the press box says it's 4th down is not acceptable".

While this is a rare occurrence, there's not many mistakes that are more egregious than missing a down.
 
While Ohio assigns the responsibility for having the correct down and distance (to the line to gain) to the Linesman, all 5 officials (in my opinion) must know this information, particularly the Umpire as he is also charged with the primary responsibility for all penalty enforcements.

Now, in the case of confusion or disagreement, the crew should consult among themselves to arrive at a consensus. (in theory, it should be short and sweet) They can utilize some resources to assist them, one being the chain crew as they are a part of the officiating crew.

While other resources may be considered, the final decision is going to have to come from the men and women on the field. Simply saying "Fred in the press box says it's 4th down is not acceptable".

While this is a rare occurrence, there's not many mistakes that are more egregious than missing a down.
Thanks for the information. The circumstances led me to wonder if there was an official play-by-play sheet similar to the "official" scorebook at a baseball game. Honestly, I'm not sure what the rules are re: the scorebook at a baseball game and whether or not umpires can reference it.

I'm sure the time the crew spent discussing down and distance (and getting it correct) seemed longer than it really was given that it was a close game with playoff and conference championship implications.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Thanks for the information. The circumstances led me to wonder if there was an official play-by-play sheet similar to the "official" scorebook at a baseball game. Honestly, I'm not sure what the rules are re: the scorebook at a baseball game and whether or not umpires can reference it.
There is no "official scorer" like in baseball and basketball.

That's why all 5 officials must know down and distance and if 4 are wrong and 1 is right, that 1 must fight like hell to save the crew.
 

rs45036

Member
1. Any member of the receiving team can make a valid signal a fair catch. However, if the player who catches the punt is not the player who signaled, he does not get protection. Only the receiver who gives a valid signal is afforded protection. However, as long as the signal is valid, there is no 5-yard penalty for an invalid signal regardless of which R player gives the signal. The ball becomes dead upon possession by any R player after any valid or invalid fair catch signal is given.

Taking off and running after the ball becomes dead could be a foul for delay of game.

2. There is no untimed down for fouls that specify a loss of down in their penalty, which would obviously include intentional grounding (which is a type of illegal forward pass under NFHS rules).
Actually in scenario 2 if the QB rolls out to the right and is outside the tackle box and he heaves the ball down the field to the other side and there is no receiver close. This would be a legal forward pass and not be a penalty at all. As long as he was outside the tackles and it was passed the line of scrimmage.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Actually in scenario 2 if the QB rolls out to the right and is outside the tackle box and he heaves the ball down the field to the other side and there is no receiver close. This would be a legal forward pass and not be a penalty at all. As long as he was outside the tackles and it was passed the line of scrimmage.
Actually.....

There is no such thing as "the tackle box" under NFHS Rules. The pass crossing the line of scrimmage has no relevance as well.
 
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JackEd

New member
Actually in scenario 2 if the QB rolls out to the right and is outside the tackle box and he heaves the ball down the field to the other side and there is no receiver close. This would be a legal forward pass and not be a penalty at all. As long as he was outside the tackles and it was passed the line of scrimmage.
I'm hoping you are just messing with the officials in this thread, which is very enlightening. If not then you are another example of people that can't separate Friday night from the weekend and thus the ignorant fans in the stands
 

Captain_Cavman

Active member
Ok, after seeing the on side kick by Ohio State...does the ball have to hit the ground 1st to be considered a free ball and therefore recovered by the kicking team?
From what l saw, it looked as though the ball was kicked high, more than 10 yards and to the sideline which it was then caught by OSU.
 
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zebrastripes

Active member
Ok, after seeing the on side kick by Ohio State...does the ball have to hit the ground 1st to be considered a free ball and therefore recovered by the kicking team?
Under NFHS rules the ball (unless touched by R first) must go 10 yards and touch the ground, in either order, before the kicking team can touch the ball.

I have not seen the Ohio State onside kick yet, but the NCAA rule is not the same.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Ok, after seeing the on side kick by Ohio State...does the ball have to hit the ground 1st to be considered a free ball and therefore recovered by the kicking team?
From what l saw, it looked as though the ball was kicked high, more than 10 yards and to the sideline which it was then caught by OSU.
The NCAA rule states that if no R player is in position to receive the ball, the catching of a free kick by K is legal. That's exactly what happened on the OSU play.

As zebrastripes noted, this play is illegal under NFHS Rules.
 
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