Ask The Ref?

USA70PP

Well-known member
Navy kicks a short FG to go ahead of Kansas State 13-10. When the ball was snapped there was three seconds on the clock. The kick was good, but two seconds were put back on the clock and a kick off ensued. If the kick had been ten or so yards longer would the clock have expired during the play? I guess what I'm asking is how is the time measured on a FG attempt?
 

USA70PP

Well-known member
You could be correct, but I looked up after the last of three straight TOs called by K-State and I was certain there were only three seconds on the clock. Even if there had been 5 seconds on the clock when the ball was snapped, it didn't get to the holder with no time going off the clock. So if what I saw was three seconds when he kicked the ball, how did only one second go off the clock through the kick sequence?
 

chito

Active member
There were 5 seconds left before the FG, not 3. Snap to kick at the college level is 1.2 -1.3 any more than that the kick is blocked.
 

USA70PP

Well-known member
You are correct. Just watched a replay. So time stops when the ball crosses the uprights or goes wide. I think then that had the kick been 10 yards longer the time would have expired before the play was over.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Navy kicks a short FG to go ahead of Kansas State 13-10. When the ball was snapped there was three seconds on the clock. The kick was good, but two seconds were put back on the clock and a kick off ensued. If the kick had been ten or so yards longer would the clock have expired during the play? I guess what I'm asking is how is the time measured on a FG attempt?

Under NCAA Rules.....

"The game clock shall stop on an official’s signal after a touchdown, field goal or safety. "

In this case when either a whistle is sounded (which should be rare) or when the hands go up signifying the attempt was successful, the clock should stop...... the clock on TV, albeit not official, showed 0:03 when the officials' hands went up signalling the score.
 
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USA70PP

Well-known member
Thanks. The way you explained the rule makes me wonder if it is the same for HS and pro. That's one I am sure is the same.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Thanks. The way you explained the rule makes me wonder if it is the same for HS and pro. That's one I am sure is the same.

They aren't....

In both the NFL and NFHS Rules, the clock stops when a field goal is successful. Both rule codes define a successful field goal as a ball passing through the vertical plane of the the crossbar between the uprights, however the NFL and NCAA does have a provision that if the ball somehow blows back between the uprights above the crossbar having not touched anything behind the goal posts, then the field goal is no good.

In the NFL if the ball is above the uprights, the ball has to between the outside edges of the uprights. Under NFHS Rules, the ball must be inside the uprights extended if the ball is above the upright.
 
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USA70PP

Well-known member
I recall talk some years back about a team claiming that when a door was opened in a domed stadium that the draft caused by the door being opened blew a FG attempt wide. Maybe maybe not, but would anyone chose to attempt a kick into a wind strong enough to blow the ball back toward the kicker?
 

chito

Active member
I recall talk some years back about a team claiming that when a door was opened in a domed stadium that the draft caused by the door being opened blew a FG attempt wide. Maybe maybe not, but would anyone chose to attempt a kick into a wind strong enough to blow the ball back toward the kicker?
 

oxat622

Well-known member
During a field goal attempt, can the defensive team have a player with a good vertical jump stand in the back of the end zone and bat away a ball that would barely pass over the crossbar? Like goaltending in basketball?
 

zebrastripes

Well-known member
During a field goal attempt, can the defensive team have a player with a good vertical jump stand in the back of the end zone and bat away a ball that would barely pass over the crossbar? Like goaltending in basketball?
No. At a minimum it's a foul for illegal batting but...

In your situation the Referee would invoke the "unfair act" rule (NFHS 9-9) and award the score.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
During a field goal attempt, can the defensive team have a player with a good vertical jump stand in the back of the end zone and bat away a ball that would barely pass over the crossbar? Like goaltending in basketball?
No. At a minimum it's a foul for illegal batting but...

In your situation the Referee would invoke the "unfair act" rule (NFHS 9-9) and award the score.


Actually, this is legal.

Case Book 6.3.1 SITUATION B
During a field-goal attempt, R1, who is in the end zone, leaps up and blocks the ball away from the crossbar.
Ruling:
Touchback. The touching by R1 in the end zone causes the ball to become dead, unless the ball caroms through the goal, thus scoring a field goal. This is not illegal batting, as the touching caused the kick to fail.
 
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zebrastripes

Well-known member
Actually, this is legal.

Case Book 6.3.1 SITUATION B
During a field-goal attempt, R1, who is in the end zone, leaps up and blocks the ball away from the crossbar.
Ruling:
Touchback. The touching by R1 in the end zone causes the ball to become dead, unless the ball caroms through the goal, thus scoring a field goal. This is not illegal batting, as the touching caused the kick to fail.
Hmmmm...doesn’t this contradict Rule 9-7-2?

ART. 2 ... No player shall bat a loose ball other than a pass or a fumble in flight, or a low scrimmage kick in flight which he is attempting to block in or behind the expanded neutral zone.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Hmmmm...doesn’t this contradict Rule 9-7-2?

ART. 2 ... No player shall bat a loose ball other than a pass or a fumble in flight, or a low scrimmage kick in flight which he is attempting to block in or behind the expanded neutral zone.

No

"as the touching caused the kick to fail"

When that kick failed, the result of the play immediately becomes a touchback. That bat only influences the potential score. It doesn't allow R to benefit in any other manner. (reason for the batting rule)

Unfortunately, decades of rule committees haven't simplified the language to indicate that it's legal to bat a ball in the end zone if it's done in an attempt to block a kick.
 
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zebrastripes

Well-known member
No

"as the touching caused the kick to fail"

When that kick failed, the result of the play immediately becomes a touchback. That bat only influences the potential score. It doesn't allow R to benefit in any other manner. (reason for the batting rule)

Unfortunately, decades of rule committees haven't simplified the language to indicate that it's legal to bat a ball in the end zone if it's done in an attempt to block a kick.
Ah, so because the ball, for all purposes other than the potential 3 points, is dead when it crosses the GL, there can't be a foul for illegal batting.

Ugh. Guess I need to get in the Case Book more.
 

Zunardo

Well-known member
During a field goal attempt, can the defensive team have a player with a good vertical jump stand in the back of the end zone and bat away a ball that would barely pass over the crossbar? Like goaltending in basketball?
Interesting clarification on this rule for HS, thanks. Probably a very rare event?

I remember watching the NFL with my father 50 years ago, and occasionally on longer FG attempts, the defense would put a tall guy under the goalpost. Dad told me the guy could catch a short kick and run it back, but if the ball was just barely going to clear the upright, if the guy could jump high enough, he could knock it down and the ball would be dead with no score. I had that truth in my head until just now. Apparently it's been a goaltending foul since the 1970's - something called the Stroud rule?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Strangely, the "Stroud Rule" (The Chiefs' Morris Stroud, 1970-1974, he was 6'10") wasn't implemented until 11 years after he retired.

In 1984 the league prohibited players from leaping to block an extra point or a field goal if they were not lined up at the line of scrimmage. In 1985, the league expanded on that and prohibited players from leaping up and deflecting a kick as it was crossing through the uprights.
 

chito

Active member
Hearing in another thread that due to covid officials will be handling the ball less, how does this work? In the case of no huddle teams how is the ball spotted?
 

chs1971

Well-known member
Hearing in another thread that due to covid officials will be handling the ball less, how does this work? In the case of no huddle teams how is the ball spotted?
Officials will not be handling the ball at all. The problem is handling the ball, then their whistle, than putting their whistle in their mouth.

The umpire will place an orange beanbag on the ground.

The center will put the ball behind the beanbag.

At the end of the play the offensive player takes the ball and gives it to the center.

The umpire will place an orange beanbag on the ground, etc., etc.

On incomplete passes an offensive player needs to go get it, or a ball boy gives an offensive player an new ball and the boy ball chases the incomplete pass.

On any turnover, including punts and KO, someone from the team who owns the ball needs to retrieve it and take it off the field.

At times it may be a little awkward, but it will work out.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
No "digging" into piles during a fumble recovery. We wait to see who comes up with it and award that team the ball.

Big potential for unsporting conduct, both verbal and physical, to come out of this.
 

USA70PP

Well-known member
No "digging" into piles during a fumble recovery. We wait to see who comes up with it and award that team the ball.

Big potential for unsporting conduct, both verbal and physical, to come out of this.
Will there be a "breaking in" period for penalties to be called in this scenario or will the first foul mouthed comment get a flag?
 

LELL

Well-known member
Officials will not be handling the ball at all. The problem is handling the ball, then their whistle, than putting their whistle in their mouth.

The umpire will place an orange beanbag on the ground.

The center will put the ball behind the beanbag.

At the end of the play the offensive player takes the ball and gives it to the center.

The umpire will place an orange beanbag on the ground, etc., etc.

On incomplete passes an offensive player needs to go get it, or a ball boy gives an offensive player an new ball and the boy ball chases the incomplete pass.

On any turnover, including punts and KO, someone from the team who owns the ball needs to retrieve it and take it off the field.

At times it may be a little awkward, but it will work out.

If the officials touch the ball, they must immediately use sanitizer.
The offensive player who is downed, must keep the ball and give it to the center in the huddle.
After huddle the center goes to the bean bag and places it down. He can adjust and re grab the ball. No penalty. Just don't take advantage of it.
If a defensive player has the ball, after he is downed, he gives it the opposition.
The maximum players allowed for any one team is 60. No more!
I din't get clarification on if the players who had helmets on that they don't have to wear a mask. I think they have to stay six feet apart when not wearing a mask.

Good luck to all the teams and good luck to all the hs football junkies! Hope you can find a way into the games.:cool:(y)
 

Just.here

Well-known member
Something I saw during a scrimmage this weekend was the offensive player giving the center the ball at the end of the play, then the center placing the ball at the bean bag, then leaving the ball and going back to the huddle.
Does the center have to take the ball back to huddle, or is it ok as long as he’s the one who puts it there?
 
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