Tampa rarely holds onto young stars into their walk years. They aren't afraid to trade young talent at their peak values and generally get multiple high level prospects in return. The multiplying effect kicks in after several years and they end up with a loaded team and farm system.
The Official 2022 Cincinnati Reds Thread
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zeeman
Well-known member
Man, your obsession with Suarez is really weird
wolves82
Highly Respected Expert
THAT'S what you take away from that long post about a rebuild? Seems like you might have the obsession.
We appreciate you stopping by the thread and contributing nothing to the conversation.
14Red
Well-known member
Tampa wins because they understand and know what kind of players to draft and develop. They are not necessarily looking for prima donna's and guys who could be risky. Unlike some of the other professional sports, there are alot of guys who "could" develop into major league players. We see it every year, there are many players who just come from nowhere, or are a 28th round draft pick. Some even flame out, then return later working their way back up. Look at a guy like Tyler Matzek of the Braves. 5 years between major league appearances, worked his way up through the independent leagues and was a key guy in the Braves bullpen this season. You never see a pro basketball player come from an obscure minor league basketball league and get in an NBA rotation, and in football, other than Kurt Warner, ever heard of an arena league player work their way into the NFL as a prominent player? The Rays KNOW that their top talent will only be with the team until their first big contract comes along. The baseball union hates it, but it should be the operation plan for alot of teams. It's funny that we complain about teams that don't spend, yet we don't offer the same complain of a bad team that overspends? It's like that money doesn't count??
The San Diego Padres had the 3rd highest payroll this year and went 79-83, 28 games out of first place. The NY Mets had the 5th highest payroll, and was 77-85, 11.5 games out of first place. The SF Giants and the Rays, you could combine their payrolls and it wasn't as high as the Padres or the Mets.
Spending money doesn't make you win in baseball.
14Red
Well-known member
We've determined many times that Suarez didn't have a good 2021 season. Ok, I get that. And 2020, I'm going to put a star by that one because of the goofy covid stuff.
But if you look at his career as a whole, eliminate the outliers and he's a more than solid major league 3rd baseman who's contract is really not that bad. I'm going to blame part of this past season on moving him to shortstop, call that and excuse, but it did happen and it may have been a contributor to his awful start. He's still a guy who an change a game with one swing.
zeeman
Well-known member
You mean the thread that like three people post on ? what you posted didn’t even mention trying to dump Suarez’ salary, instead you insert him as a core player ?
Jesus....
14Red
Well-known member
Pretty exciting to see Jonathan India be named NL rookie of the year! And interestingly, he wasn't even projected to start when the season began. Mike Moustakas, Nick Senzel was supposed to compete for the 2nd base spot. India had such a great spring that he forced the Reds to consider moving Suarez to short, Moustakas to 3rd in an effort to increase the offense. Once India got into the lineup, and especially when he was put in the leadoff spot he really took off.
Now the Reds look to have their 2nd baseman and leadoff man of the future.
Now the Reds look to have their 2nd baseman and leadoff man of the future.
zeeman
Well-known member
India will be the Reds 3B in the future with Ivan Johnson at 2B and Barrero at SS. The Reds need to shed Moose and Suarez as soon as they can. They need to be bench players this year and start the kids.
14Red
Well-known member
I don't think you're going to see two guys who combine to make over $20 mill a season both sitting on the bench. India will be at 2nd. Suarez at 3rd. Unless you find some team to take on Suarez, he's going to be a Red until 2024. It's the downside of extending contracts. Now there is a chance that Suarez '21 was a blip and he'll return to form, although many players would love to have an off season of 31 homers.
zeeman
Well-known member
He has sucked since signing his deal, he will be on the bench by mid season
wolves82
Highly Respected Expert
LOL. He signed before the 2019 season and had 49 HR, 100+ RBI. "sucked".
Even with his bad years in 2020 and 2021, some facts:
- at $11M per season, he is the 10th highest paid 3B
- in 2021, he was 6th among 3B in HR, 10th in RBI, despite reduced playing time and a terrible batting average
- in 2020, he was 3rd among 3B in HR, 5th in RBI, despite a terrible batting average
Sorry, those are just the facts. He is productive. Reds are getting their money's worth from him. And he will likely be better in 2022.
You are just blinded by hate, so you can't acknowledge the facts. Did Suarez harm you somehow, maybe sleep with your wife? Or is it just the anthem thing? Carry on with your ignorance...
14Red
Well-known member
We will see, but with what you've invested in him, you've got to play him and adjust if need be.
I think you need to look around at the rest of the league and see what other teams have for 3rd base. Now he's not been all star caliber, but as we've noted on this thread for years, you simply can't have all star players in every position. The Braves certainly didn't and they won it all. Suarez is a good major league 3rd baseman who didn't hit a high average last season. Other than that, his numbers are pretty good.
zeeman
Well-known member
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The Reds are stuck with Suarez and I’m sure he’ll be the everyday 3B regardless of how many unproductive at-bats he’s responsible for. Any prayer they have for 2022 is dependent on Suarez, Moustakas and Senzel resembling productive players, because you have to expect regression out of Votto and you’re probably not going to be able to ask for much more from Winker and India than what they’re already getting.
It would be a fun little experiment to span the league and see how many 3B would be valued over Suarez. Off the top of my head, I’d take:
Rafael Devers
Wander Franco
Yoan Moncada
Jose Ramirez
Josh Donaldson
Matt Chapman
Anthony Rendon
Kyle Seager
Alex Bregman
Austin Riley
Kris Bryant
Ke’Bryan Hayes
Nolan Arenado
Eduardo Escobar
Justin Turner
Manny Machado
So that’s 16 starters off the top of my head, which means the Reds are at best treading water and honestly probably losing ground to most of the league with Suarez at 3B.
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It would be a fun little experiment to span the league and see how many 3B would be valued over Suarez. Off the top of my head, I’d take:
Rafael Devers
Wander Franco
Yoan Moncada
Jose Ramirez
Josh Donaldson
Matt Chapman
Anthony Rendon
Kyle Seager
Alex Bregman
Austin Riley
Kris Bryant
Ke’Bryan Hayes
Nolan Arenado
Eduardo Escobar
Justin Turner
Manny Machado
So that’s 16 starters off the top of my head, which means the Reds are at best treading water and honestly probably losing ground to most of the league with Suarez at 3B.
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wolves82
Highly Respected Expert
No doubt, there are lots of 3B I'd take over Suarez too, and you listed them. But you did not list their costs. Arenado, Turner, Ramirez, Moncada Bregman, Bryant and Machado are all "better" than Suarez by most standards. All make more $$ than Suarez and are prohibitively expensive for the Reds. And Suarez out-produced Bregman and Moncada in 2021, despite his bad year.
Devers, Riley and Seager are the only 3 better than Suarez and less expensive.
Some of your names are crazy though:
- If you would rather pay $36M for Rendon I don't know if I can help you. Are you the Angels GM? He was hurt and missed a chunk of 2021, and his 2020 was worse than Suarez.
- Chapman has had his moments, but he hit .210 in 2021 with fewer HR and RBI than Suarez.
- Escobar has been in the bigs for 10 years and has 138 HR and .256 career average. He's just OK, you are just thinking about his good years in 2019 and 2021.
- Hayes has 85 big league ABs. He may turn out to be good, but really who knows.
- Franco is a stud but he is a shortstop.
His salary is irrelevant at this point. If there is a better option then Suarez will sit.
I don't see a better option.... yet.
zeeman
Well-known member
Reds really need to blow up this team, the window is slammed shut and they will be rebuilding for the foreseeable future. Next three years they will be able to shed Suarez, Moose, Votto, Senzel, Gray and Castillo. They do have a good young core and they should do what they can to lock up Stevenson, India and Winker. Take the loss on Suarez and Moose, they’re broken and start all young guys next year. It’s going to be brutal for the next several years
Omar
Well-known member
Smart ppl running things.
14Red
Well-known member
And 3 years from now, you'll be talking about shedding Stephenson, India and Winker and be all in on the next group of prospects. This is a good team. While "shedding' Suarez, Moose, Votto, Senzel, Gray and Castillo, they are going to play MAJOR roles in the next few season (well, all except Moose). This is going to be every evolving, year after year. Major league teams are just not going to pay a bunch of guys to go play for other teams. That's wasting money. You've got 3 young core players to build with in Winker, Stephenson and India. Hopefully Barrero joins that group and Senzel gets things figured out. Add two potential top end rotation guys in Lodolo and Green and this is a great foundation to build on.
zeeman
Well-known member
The Reds management can screw up a wet dream
14Red
Well-known member
I can't deny that, but you have to understand that this is different management. Yes, I know everyone likes to target Bob Castellini, but I"m about 100% sure he does not decide who the Reds are drafting and where Nick Senzel is going to play next season. Let's also understand that while the Reds have not won in a while, they are far from the only team that hasn't. As in most pro sports, it takes alot of things to be successful, and luck is near the top.
I currently like the way the organization is going, I like that we have a nice blend of veterans and some really good young guys coming. 2021 was a really fun season, IMO. They were good to follow all season. The Cardinals had a historic finish to the season and the Reds faltered. That said, I think this team can be very competitive in 2022.
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Does anyone really see them extending Winker? I don’t. Frankly, if they extended him, it might torpedo future teams like the Griffey and Votto contracts contributed to doing.
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14Red
Well-known member
I feel that most of the Suarez detractors fall into the "grass is greener" category. They only see what our guy does and they don't look around at the rest of the league, what those guys make and their contributions. They saw them in a 3 game series last June and they hit a couple of homers and they jump them into a spot better than our own player. Many Reds fans choose to root this way for some reason.
The Reds need to replace Castellanos who is seeking a 7 yr deal with an AAV around 18M.
Kyle Schwarber has similar production and is a year younger and is looking for a 3yr/60M deal.
If the Reds trade more salary (pitching) would Schwarber make this team a contender or should they look to keep the pitching and hope for the best in the OF?
Kyle Schwarber has similar production and is a year younger and is looking for a 3yr/60M deal.
If the Reds trade more salary (pitching) would Schwarber make this team a contender or should they look to keep the pitching and hope for the best in the OF?
14Red
Well-known member
I don't think Schwarber would make us an contender. You'd have to have a good idea the NL would adopt the DH full time to entertain him. He simply is a positionless player. He not a good first baseman (and we have one) and he's not a good outfielder either.