Omar
Well-known member
Normally, I wouldn’t give a rat’s a** about what the fans think, but you can’t pack it in during the middle of a playoff run.
The Official 2022 Cincinnati Reds Thread
- Thread starter AEW Champion
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AEW Champion
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The fans stopped showing up by late August even with the Reds holding a wild card lead during that period, so it was clearly not worth catering toward them in the first place. The Reds ownership and most of its backwoods fanbase deserve each other. There are some smart fans, but not many. Just see what walks out of the stadium on a summer Saturday night for evidence.
It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
wolves82
Highly Respected Expert
So that is 2 derogatory posts about Reds fans. Someone with a professional wrestling moniker should not ever consider other people to be more lowly than they are.
AEW Champion
Your wife’s favorite poster
Have you watched AEW? I suggest giving it a watch tomorrow night if you haven’t.
(On a side note, everyone is lower than he who is Champion.)
As far as Reds fans go, some of them are OK. But let’s be real, it’s not the most intelligent or ardent fanbase. Listen to all the woo-ing in the stands every night. Look at the idiots trying to start the wave. Listen to the callers on 700 WLW. I don’t hear any Rhodes Scholars. If they were filling up the park most nights, I wouldn’t say anything. But people talk up Cincinnati as a great fanbase and a baseball town when in fact GABP is a ghost town in April, May and September and even some weeknights in the summer.
It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
brianwr112
Well-known member
Hal McCoy recently wrote he’s heard from many sources that it’s impossible for a GM to run the team when ownership meddles in trade talks to keep their family favorites around.
Omar
Well-known member
Pro wrestling is ghey
AEW Champion
Your wife’s favorite poster
Charitably, they perhaps had a one-year window in 2020 to do some damage, but that window closed as soon as they lost Trevor Bauer and gave away Raisel Iglesias and Archie Bradley for nothing.
Even then, 2020 was a highly flawed team that was unlikely to bring home the bacon. They couldn’t have expected the level of front-line starting pitching that carried that team.
It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
wolves82
Highly Respected Expert
I'll grant you that the woo-ing and wave are annoying. And pretty much all callers (and listeners) of talk radio might have issues. But I won't be watching pro wrestling. Not a fan of soap operas that star oiled-up, shaved body-builders. Plus I have all my teeth and a 3-digit IQ, so I'm not qualified.
14Red
Well-known member
And the Reds are right in the middle. Many Reds fans just want to throw money at problems, and as I've said on here countless times, it's really easy to spend other people's money. The Reds are in a good place now. They have some good veteran players, yet they also have a blend of youth and for a team like the Reds, that configuration needs to continue. Yes, we love players and we get to know them and wish they'd all retire Reds, but that's a bad formula. Tucker Barnhart is a great guy and I'd love to have had him in Cincy forever, but the players union and the CBA sets the contract structure that the older a player gets, the more expensive they get. In Cincinnati, you can't pay the backup catcher $7.5 mill. It's foolish. As for Castellenos, he had an option to get out of his contract early and he chose to do it.
The Reds hopefully have not one, but two top end of the rotation pitchers that should be here for the next 3-4 seasons in Hunter Greene and Nick Lodolo. India looks to be the 2nd baseman for the forseeable future. Stepehenson is your catcher for the next several years. Hopefully Jose Barerro will be the shortstop we need. Suarez is at 3rd. Winker in left. The team can fill a few spots or they can try to fill from within. The bullpen is always going to be in flux, even during the season. Nearly all teams bullpens are like this.
So stop worrying so much about the teams finances, they'll put a competitive team on the field in 2022. If we play well and stay heatlhy, we'll be there in September, if not, we still have alot of young pieces to keep moving forward.
They will not put a competitive team on the field next season .
Yes, bigger payroll generally equates to more winning.
Krall has stated as much but he also said he would not package a bad contract with prospect or a good contract to move the bad contract.
In essence he is saying the Reds have some money but not enough to keep the young, productive and increasingly expensive players. But they will keep the expensive unproductive players.
Not looking good for the near future.
14Red
Well-known member
We shall see, won't we.
14Red
Well-known member
You don't think they are working daily to see if they can unload Moustakas??? There is NO MARKET for him!!!! He's old, unproductive and expensive!! However, outside of the Moustakas contract and trying to find some workable bullpen guys, I like this team going into 2022, even without Castellenos.
AEW Champion
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I’m not sure how this team can be liked very much going into 2022 when there are question marks and/or possible black holes of production at 3B, CF, RF, the back end of the rotation and at least half or more of the bullpen. Plus they have no quality depth on the bench assuming Moose has to DH.
Once Lodolo, Greene, India, Stephenson and Barrero will be blooded enough to carry the team around 2024, they’ll have lost Winker to free agency and (much less alarmingly) Votto to retirement. They should have been selling everything not nailed down — including Winker — over the past year to start building toward 2024. But they didn’t and now they’ve severely reduced their chances for successfully building up a monster during the upcoming prime of their young cornerstones.
It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
Once Lodolo, Greene, India, Stephenson and Barrero will be blooded enough to carry the team around 2024, they’ll have lost Winker to free agency and (much less alarmingly) Votto to retirement. They should have been selling everything not nailed down — including Winker — over the past year to start building toward 2024. But they didn’t and now they’ve severely reduced their chances for successfully building up a monster during the upcoming prime of their young cornerstones.
It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
Of course there's no market for Moustakas straight up. There's likely a market in a package deal however.
They can get a haul for Winker now if they make him available.
He should be made available if they are shooting for 2024.
14Red
Well-known member
No, it's reality.
14Red
Well-known member
How do you know they are not shopping him?
Also, I'll play devil's advocate, why would I want to trade for Jessie Winker? He's never finished a season, Other than the covid shortened 2020, he's missed major parts of seasons and I"m not sure his shoulder is not going to become chronic. I think a haul may be stretching it.
Also, I'll play devil's advocate, why would I want to trade for Jessie Winker? He's never finished a season, Other than the covid shortened 2020, he's missed major parts of seasons and I"m not sure his shoulder is not going to become chronic. I think a haul may be stretching it.
14Red
Well-known member
Is there a team in baseball that has no question marks going into the season? I mean c'mon man!
Here is what is known for 2022....like it or not...
You have starters in place at 3B, SS (Farmer or Barrero), 2B, 1B, LF, C, CF (if Senzel is healthy and still a Red). Now, you may not be tickled to death with WHO is in these spots, but they have people in those places as of today. This being Suarez, Farmer or Barrero, India, Votto, Winker, Stephenson and possibly Senzel.
Into the mix for the other spots would be (unless a FA is signed) is Max Schrock, TJ Fredel, Aquino, Naquin if resigned, and you still have Shogo.
As of today, Gray, Castillo and Mahle are back in the rotation, Hunter Greene will either have a spot immediately or will have one by May if they choose to manage his innings early. Also have Vlad Gutierrez. 4th and 5th starters can be found all over baseball in the coming months, as well as bullpen guys. I think one guy who may emerge in the back end of the bullpen is Luis Cessa. He did a nice job at the end of last season. You'll have Lucas Sims, Art Warren, Tony Santillan and Dauria Moretta in the mix as well.
I have an optimistic view not only for next season, but in the years to come because the franchise is finally looking long term as well as short term.
wolves82
Highly Respected Expert
For those of you that are Reds fans espousing the "scorched earth" approach to rebuilding, a few things to consider:
- When the Astros did it, their franchise suffered through 4 seasons of 100+ losses. Lots of empty stadium days. Does not sound fun.
- The Orioles are in the middle of it now (115, 108, 110 losses the last 3 full seasons). Also no fun. And they have total team salary of $19 million committed for 2022. TOTAL. Trey Mancini makes $8M, and the rest of the active roster makes $11M.
- There is no assurance that a full rebuild works. It did for the Astros, you could see early on they had the young talent. Orioles have nothing to show for their suffering. Mancini, Means, and nobody else. They will suck for a long time. Will Lodolo, Greene and Barerro be great in the MLB? Yet to be determined.
- With contracts in place like Moose, Votto and Shogo it is impossible to shed that payroll. So you are committed to $50M in payroll just with those three guys.
- Guys like India and Stephenson would absolutely hate losing 100+ games each year - they would want out.
From managements perspective, how can you go full rebuild with that expense locked in? You have to get stadium revenues to help cover that expense.
From a fans perspective: 83-79 isn't great, but we had a really fun season until the Sept collapse. I'm in my 60's. Selfishly I do not want 3-4 seasons with 100 losses. I'd rather have 3 seasons slightly above .500 with a real chance at sneaking in the playoffs. Call it settling for mediocrity, call it what you want, but it makes summer more fun when the games mean something into September.
I hope that we keep the top 3 rotation guys, Suarez and Winker. Team has enough to be above .500 again, with good health for the key guys. I'd like another fun season.
- When the Astros did it, their franchise suffered through 4 seasons of 100+ losses. Lots of empty stadium days. Does not sound fun.
- The Orioles are in the middle of it now (115, 108, 110 losses the last 3 full seasons). Also no fun. And they have total team salary of $19 million committed for 2022. TOTAL. Trey Mancini makes $8M, and the rest of the active roster makes $11M.
- There is no assurance that a full rebuild works. It did for the Astros, you could see early on they had the young talent. Orioles have nothing to show for their suffering. Mancini, Means, and nobody else. They will suck for a long time. Will Lodolo, Greene and Barerro be great in the MLB? Yet to be determined.
- With contracts in place like Moose, Votto and Shogo it is impossible to shed that payroll. So you are committed to $50M in payroll just with those three guys.
- Guys like India and Stephenson would absolutely hate losing 100+ games each year - they would want out.
From managements perspective, how can you go full rebuild with that expense locked in? You have to get stadium revenues to help cover that expense.
From a fans perspective: 83-79 isn't great, but we had a really fun season until the Sept collapse. I'm in my 60's. Selfishly I do not want 3-4 seasons with 100 losses. I'd rather have 3 seasons slightly above .500 with a real chance at sneaking in the playoffs. Call it settling for mediocrity, call it what you want, but it makes summer more fun when the games mean something into September.
I hope that we keep the top 3 rotation guys, Suarez and Winker. Team has enough to be above .500 again, with good health for the key guys. I'd like another fun season.
The only concern I have with moving Winker is don’t underestimate the Reds front office’s ability to blow the deal and get prospects in return that turn out to be total zeros.
This is why I think the Reds should approach Votto with a trade. He can't withstand another rebuild. Give him an opportunity to win a ring. He deserves it.
If he says no then move forward with a teardown.
The Padres might be willing to make a Wil Myers for Votto trade.
wolves82
Highly Respected Expert
I get that Myers contract is just 1 more year and Votto's is 2 more. But how does trading Votto's $25M salary for Myers $22.5M make sense for the Reds, other than in 2023? Reds trade away an icon, create all sorts of bad will in the fan base and community, and save salary for 1 season in 2023. I guess it means we have Moose at first base.
How does it make sense for the Padres? They already have Machado ($32M) and Hosmer ($21M) as corner infielders under contract. I guess if the DH rule change happens it could make sense.
Would they take Moose plus an OF (Shogo/Naquin) for Myers?
14Red
Well-known member
Great post! I would way Reds fans are spoiled but I really don't know how since we've not won for a long time. And I'm not championship or bust guy. It's really, REALLY hard to win titles. I think you have to try to put yourself in contention, hope you have a couple players have career years, stay healthy and just get some dumb luck to win. The Reds were there in 2021. It was an incredibly fun season that sadly went south in August and September and the Cardinals took the playoff spot from us. They earned it with a stretch of historic baseball.
I don't understand the full rebuild crowd because you never can do that because you have current players under big contracts. The Astros was pretty darn fortunate that all of their young guys performed in their rebuild. That rarely happens.
The fastest way to send the Reds back to 100 loss seasons in a few years? Spend all kinds of money now to "go for it" then fail and have to pare everyone away.
Stirred not Shaken
Well-known member
How does Tampa Bay consistently win with a 70 million dollar payroll ( last season )? Not counting the covid season ( finished 1st ), the Rays have won 90 games 6 out of the last 10 years. Just because a team is in a " small market " doesn't mean they can't win consistently just have to have good ownership.
wolves82
Highly Respected Expert
100% right. But they just seem to be smarter than all the other clubs when it comes to identifying and developing talent. Not sure how. They are the outlier, although Oakland and milwaukee also do pretty well on below average team salary.