Best team likely not going to make the playoffs?

Last year, Cradinal Mooney was a #14 or #15 seed and nearly missed the playoffs altogether while playing the most difficult schedule in D-V besides South Range. The only team in D-V that could defeat and that actually defeated Mooney was South Range, Mooney went on to slaughter their opponent in the 1st round and played South Range the closest of everyone in D-V all year and was likely the 2nd or 3rd best team in all of D-V despite the losing record. A few years back SV-SM was the #15 or #16 seed and barely made the playoffs, and was beating their 1st round opponent and only barely lost in the last minute of the game by 2 or 3 points and was likely one of the top 10 teams in D-III that year.
Let’s clarify a couple things here. Mooney was a 13 seed last year that drew a weak Edison team in round one. Their second game was against Norwayne that came down to the last play of the game. Their score against SR was 34-6. For reference, the score of the SR Liberty game in round one was 35-6. The only difference in the scores was a missed 2 pt conversion by the Raiders in the Mooney game. Not taking away from a good post season Mooney had last year. But saying SR was the only team in the Division that could beat Mooney is wrong. Norwayne nearly beat them and both Perry and Garaway would’ve beat them by multiple scores last year. All in the same region, let alone the state. I’ve heard this argument a few times and it’s just wrong, albeit easier to say that had it not been for SR, Mooney would’ve won state. It simply isn’t true. Again, they should be congratulated for their accomplishments, but these are the facts.
 
@97Raider There are two ways for one team to be defeated in a football game. The first way is to get beat by the other team and the second way is to beat yourself. In all likelihood Mooney would beat themselves, when their is a larger disparity between the two teams Mooney can get away with it like they did against Norwayne, against better competition they would not be able to overcome all of their mistakes most likely. I don't think that Mooney deserves any accolades particularly, I was just saying Mooney almost missed the playoffs and would have given everyone in D-V a lot of trouble, perhaps Mooney would not win but they would make everyone leery of the possibility of getting upset more so than any other low seed last year.
 
Let’s clarify a couple things here. Mooney was a 13 seed last year that drew a weak Edison team in round one. Their second game was against Norwayne that came down to the last play of the game. Their score against SR was 34-6. For reference, the score of the SR Liberty game in round one was 35-6. The only difference in the scores was a missed 2 pt conversion by the Raiders in the Mooney game. Not taking away from a good post season Mooney had last year. But saying SR was the only team in the Division that could beat Mooney is wrong. Norwayne nearly beat them and both Perry and Garaway would’ve beat them by multiple scores last year. All in the same region, let alone the state. I’ve heard this argument a few times and it’s just wrong, albeit easier to say that had it not been for SR, Mooney would’ve won state. It simply isn’t true. Again, they should be congratulated for their accomplishments, but these are the facts.
He has a hard time deciphering "facts" vs. "opinion".
 
He has a hard time deciphering "facts" vs. "opinion".
The fact of the matter is that high school football is very unpredictable and it is hard to say with any degree of certainty what would happen, you could play a game 1000 times and get 1000 completely different outcomes. Mooney on paper was one of the best teams in D-V, but would that translate if they are undisciplined and make a lot of mistakes and commit a lot of penalties... probably not, but in some alternate reality it is theoretically possible for them to play a perfect mistake free game and execute everything perfectly and to beat South Range by that same token they could lose to Sebring McKinley or Vanlue on any given day.
 
The fact of the matter is that high school football is very unpredictable and it is hard to say with any degree of certainty what would happen, you could play a game 1000 times and get 1000 completely different outcomes. Mooney on paper was one of the best teams in D-V, but would that translate if they are undisciplined and make a lot of mistakes and commit a lot of penalties... probably not, but in some alternate reality it is theoretically possible for them to play a perfect mistake free game and execute everything perfectly and to beat South Range by that same token they could lose to Sebring McKinley or Vanlue on any given day.
Mooney could lose to Vanlue?
Dave Chapelle GIF by MOODMAN
 
You can't generalize like that, there are a few exceptions, have you looked at region 9 the past 10 years or so? It is always stacked and the cutoff to get in is almost always higher for region 9 compared to every other region. Teams that miss the playoffs in region 9 would get a home game in some other regions (#8 seed).
This is why I have had the opinion that regardless of travel distance, money or any other reason that regions should be eradicated and each division should be the top 32 teams wherever you play on Friday nights. Yes, I have stated this umpteen times on various threads throughout the years and you're all tired of reading it. However, this post to which I am replying, is Exhibit A to my case and I, once again, felt compelled. 😂😂
 
Padua is not a top 10 team in their division
No one is saying Padua is top 10 in their division; Drew Pasteur and I would argue they're top10 in their region. In the old days with 8 playoff teams per region, they wouldn't stand a chance at making the playoffs this year.
 
They don't have a very good record, I just listed the best teams irrespective of records that would miss the playoffs in each division.
There were down a lot by OG standards.....but a few things: Drew Pasteur has them with the #1 SOS in D5....and it's not close. They are the only D5 team in a league with 5 D3's and 4 D4's and their non-conference game with with perennial playoff contender Eastwood. 7 (possibly 8) of their opponents will make the playoffs and none of them will make it with a losing record. I don't think they'd do well against the top teams in Region 18, but I'd put them in before any of the teams that are likely to make it with a losing record.
 
@tcgobucks I would argue South Range has a more difficult schedule, the Raiders schedule is just weighed down by last year's D-VII state runner-up JFK who is terrible this year, but it is otherwise more difficult. Not to mention Green who's had players get injured who were not injured against SR, who is not being rated as high because Drew's algorithms don't account for injuries.
Meanwhile Coldwater's is actually not as tough because as Drew readily admitted, his calculations regard teams like Marion Local and Kirtland to be stronger teams than they actually are and regard some larger division teams as weaker then they actually are (and Coldwater's SOS is artificially inflated by Marion Local).
 
I understand. This year, according to Drew Pasteur, Padua has the #6 most difficult schedule in D3. They're 4-5 and likely to move to 4-6 since they play D2 Walsh on Friday. Still, Drew Pasteur has Padua ranked #8 in D3/R10. Similar to last year when Padua had a tough schedule, squeaked into the playoffs as the #12 seed at 5-5, and put a running clock on Buckeye in the first round and Norton in the 3rd round of the playoffs.

Records and Harbin points aren't perfect rating systems. Harbins do a poor job of picking the top 8 since the data shows that 9-12 seeds have a 50/50 split with 5-8 seeds. But the data also shows that the Region winners are almost always from among the Top 8, usually the Top 4, so arguing about #12 - #20 is a fool's errand. I'm sure Cardinal Mooney was a fine team. Same for SVSM, same for Padua this season. In the end, Harbins get the Top 4 pretty damn accurate.

Note the common thread here. Parochial schools have a hard time getting public school teams in their Region, let alone Division, to play them in OOC games. That's increasing the chances for public schools in weak conferences (like Westlake, for example, in D2/R6) to get playoff berths and it hurts parochial schools with better programs because they beat each other up.

I've seen it from the public-school side as 3 of my kids attended public school. Did well in the regular season only to get slaughtered by St. Ignatius. So, I have limited sympathy for the parochial schools given their advantages despite being a Padua fan today.

Bitter pill, but mid-tier parochial schools will get squeezed out of the playoffs even when they're better than, say, seeds 12-16, due to their schedule difficulties. No complaints though; had Padua held on in the 2nd half in just one of three of its losses, they'd be 5-4 and a virtual lock for a playoff berth. Either way, they're not going to beat Tiffin or TCC, so it's a lot of meaningless speculation.
I'm in general agreement with this post and "liked" it. Had the Harbins done the "right" thing in 1972 and accounted for a teams losses, this whole argument might be a moot point. I think the "better" teams would show up in the top 8 even more often than they do.

I also had the schedule discussion on another thread. You can go 3-7, lose to say 5 "good / better" teams in your season in close games and, yes, you can be "better" than your record makes you look. To me that screams overscheduling, and I know of another good example of it from years ago that cost a "better" team a 1-8 playoff spot. Accounting for losses as well as wins would help this issue. (There are no such thing as "Good losses". EACH LOSS WOULD BE PENALIZED. The worse a team you lost to, the stiffer the penalty.)

If teams have the above trouble because they HAVE to schedule "up", (IOW, they are probably playing in the wrong Division regardless of enrollment if no schools of comparable size will play them) they should form an 8-team league and play each other, regardless of geography (They could make it a "Football Only" league, to save on travel in their non-revenue, Olympic etc. sports. FO leagues were once a fairly common alternative in Ohio, for whatever strange reason they have fallen from favor. Massillon has played in at least 2 of these over their history, and Warren Western Reserve played in back-to-back State Title Games in 1972-73 playing out of such a league. Winning of course, in 1972. There were some basketball only leagues too.)

I figure, if they can't get games against comparable size/enrollment teams, they are better than their present Division and s/b moved up.

There should be something added to the system that automatically moves a team up over say a last 10-years assessment of a teams (read: "program's") playoff success. Which would alleviate poor records because of scheduling above the Division you are in. Or, both components.

No one says that Divisions HAVE to be based by rule on pure enrollment only. Perhaps playoff success over a long period of years, to prevent that one-off great senior class from putting you in over your head, should be addressed or added to the system.

One more thing, it appears that the competitive balance formula isn't doing the job it was supposed to do. I'm sure most here would agree that there are certain teams in certain Divisions that should be, or at least could be, playing higher.
 
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Last year, Cradinal Mooney was a #14 or #15 seed and nearly missed the playoffs altogether while playing the most difficult schedule in D-V besides South Range. The only team in D-V that could defeat and that actually defeated Mooney was South Range, Mooney went on to slaughter their opponent in the 1st round and played South Range the closest of everyone in D-V all year and was likely the 2nd or 3rd best team in all of D-V despite the losing record. A few years back SV-SM was the #15 or #16 seed and barely made the playoffs, and was beating their 1st round opponent and only barely lost in the last minute of the game by 2 or 3 points and was likely one of the top 10 teams in D-III that year.

Kinda reminds me of 2012. Mooney went 3-6, with one of their ewins being a 41-15 pounding of Akron St. Vincent-St. Mary. However, losses to Cleveland St. Ignatius, Warren G Harding, Mentor Lake Catholic, Lakewood St. Edward, Youngstown Ursuline, and Austintown Fitch kept the Cards out of the playoffs. Meanwhile, SVSM went on to win the Division III state title by 21 points.

IMO, Mooney was significantly better in 2012 than they are now (or last year for that matter), but they "scheduled up" even more than usual due to the success of their '09 & '11 state championship teams. I would've loved to have seen their '06 or '09 squads play their schedule from 2012.
 
Given that you have to win your region first, does anyone think Chaney can win region 9?
I think similar to how Jefferson Area won region 13 last year, they could by dumb luck and a pure fluke somehow win region 9. They probably would have a better chance of winning the regions that do not have TCC or Ursuline however.
 
Name me a team that won't make the playoffs and why they are actually good? A team with 3 or 4 wins stinks and does not deserve to make the playoffs...
Mooney had only 3 wins, missed the playoffs and beat SV-SM by 40 points who went on to easily win the state championship in their division, everyone unanimously agreed if Mooney had made the playoffs they would have easily won the State Championship.
 
Mooney had only 3 wins, missed the playoffs and beat SV-SM by 40 points who went on to easily win the state championship in their division, everyone unanimously agreed if Mooney had made the playoffs they would have easily won the State Championship.
Everyone agrees that something that didn't happen, would have happened if...

Maybe Mooney should have won a few more games in the regular season...

If the regular season doesn't matter, let's just have a tournament and be done with it...
 
Everyone agrees that something that didn't happen, would have happened if...

Maybe Mooney should have won a few more games in the regular season...

If the regular season doesn't matter, let's just have a tournament and be done with it...
Money's schedule was more difficult then every team in D-II through D-VII, only a few of the perennial state championship contenders in D-I had a more difficult schedule.
 
Name me a team that won't make the playoffs and why they are actually good? A team with 3 or 4 wins stinks and does not deserve to make the playoffs...
Region 9 is going to end up with 17 teams that are 6-4 or better, so at least one team with a winning record won’t make it. The 17th team may not be world beaters, but that is by no means a team that stinks. And as others have said, there are plenty of good parochial schools that loaded up their schedule, finished 3-7/4-6, and would mow through most of the 8-2/7-3 publics. So there absolutely will be good teams that don’t play in week 11.
 
And as others have said, there are plenty of good parochial schools that loaded up their schedule, finished 3-7/4-6, and would mow through most of the 8-2/7-3 publics. So there absolutely will be good teams that don’t play in week 11.
Bingo. We all know and see this as long as "good" means Top16. In fact, I think we'll find more and more examples in the future as the trend to all-public and all-parochial conferences grows. Holy Name and Elyria Catholic were recently booted from their conference with publics and landed in an all-private conference with LC, NDCL, Padua, and CVCA. That's a much tougher schedule starting point than, say, the 8 similarly-sized schools reconstituting the GLC for 2024 (NO, Westlake, Buckeye, River, Lakewood, Bay, VF, and Normandy) without them.

No sour grapes here. I've seen this debate from both sides. Just saying that the Harbin system doesn't account well enough for strength of schedule which heavily depends on strength of conference. For proof, just look at Westlake in D2/R6 who'd get a home game if the season ended today. Drew Pasteur has Westlake as #17 in D2/R6 and that seems more accurate than #8 according to Harbins.

Letting 16 into the playoffs seems like the most practical way of dealing with conference strength differences. Yes, there will be an occasional good team left out, but short of letting everyone in or getting rid of the Harbin system in favor of coaches' or fans' voting, let's stick with 16 and accept an occasional miss who likely wouldn't win the Region anyway.
 
Bingo. We all know and see this as long as "good" means Top16. In fact, I think we'll find more and more examples in the future as the trend to all-public and all-parochial conferences grows. Holy Name and Elyria Catholic were recently booted from their conference with publics and landed in an all-private conference with LC, NDCL, Padua, and CVCA. That's a much tougher schedule starting point than, say, the 8 similarly-sized schools reconstituting the GLC for 2024 (NO, Westlake, Buckeye, River, Lakewood, Bay, VF, and Normandy) without them.

No sour grapes here. I've seen this debate from both sides. Just saying that the Harbin system doesn't account well enough for strength of schedule which heavily depends on strength of conference. For proof, just look at Westlake in D2/R6 who'd get a home game if the season ended today. Drew Pasteur has Westlake as #17 in D2/R6 and that seems more accurate than #8 according to Harbins.

Letting 16 into the playoffs seems like the most practical way of dealing with conference strength differences. Yes, there will be an occasional good team left out, but short of letting everyone in or getting rid of the Harbin system in favor of coaches' or fans' voting, let's stick with 16 and accept an occasional miss who likely wouldn't win the Region anyway.
Personally I’d be in favor of something like losses still get points but have a 25% weight, while wins have a 75% weight.
 
Many times a team will beat another team that is very good but has a very difficult schedule and as such does not win as many games but the Harbin system does not account for the strength of opponents very well especially in this scenario.
agreed. one ting I did try to look for albeit informally last night were teams around seeds 15-18..maybe 19 who had they played maybe a "lighter" schedule may have picked up maybe 2 or 3 more wins and as a result would have a better chance at making the playoffs than they currently do.

Bedford comes to mind. They lose by a point to an 8-1 Akron East in week 2. They lose by a TD and a 2 point conversion to a 7-2 Nordonia. In fact all but one of their five losses was to a team that will probably if not certainly make the playoffs. NDCL being right behind them in R9.
 
Since I am not in favor of the sixteen number I would say there are at least 8 teams in each region that should not be in the playoffs that have made it in. I know what I wrote is not on subject.
 
Region 9 is going to end up with 17 teams that are 6-4 or better, so at least one team with a winning record won’t make it. The 17th team may not be world beaters, but that is by no means a team that stinks. And as others have said, there are plenty of good parochial schools that loaded up their schedule, finished 3-7/4-6, and would mow through most of the 8-2/7-3 publics. So there absolutely will be good teams that don’t play in week 11.
So let's take an example of one of these 6-4 teams that is "deserving"... Alliance has wins over 0-9 Minerva, 1-8 Salem, 2-7 Ellet...

I don't get this logic...what makes them deserving? Their win over Lake in week 1? Lake has beat a bunch of very average teams making their record look solid, but they lost their only tough game.,
 
agreed. one ting I did try to look for albeit informally last night were teams around seeds 15-18..maybe 19 who had they played maybe a "lighter" schedule may have picked up maybe 2 or 3 more wins and as a result would have a better chance at making the playoffs than they currently do.

Bedford comes to mind. They lose by a point to an 8-1 Akron East in week 2. They lose by a TD and a 2 point conversion to a 7-2 Nordonia. In fact all but one of their five losses was to a team that will probably if not certainly make the playoffs. NDCL being right behind them in R9.
Conversely, look at Norton in D3/R10. They're 9-0 with 6 wins against D4 schools, 2 against middle-of-the-road D3 schools, and D2 Firestone and would be the #2 seed as of today. Impressed by their consistency but that's not much of a gauntlet. I'd take #15 Padua who'll be 4-6 after tonight in a money line bet. Not sour grapes as my hometown team, North Royalton, used to be in the same spot 12-15 years ago. They'd run through the NOC Lake beating Garfield Hts. and the Parma schools while scheduling weak OOC games like neighboring and sport a 9-1 or 10-0 record. Then Glenville and Solon would come to NoRo in week 11 and win by 30 points.
 
There should be something added to the system that automatically moves a team up over say a last 10-years assessment of a teams (read: "program's") playoff success. Which would alleviate poor records because of scheduling above the Division you are in. Or, both components.

No one says that Divisions HAVE to be based by rule on pure enrollment only. Perhaps playoff success over a long period of years, to prevent that one-off great senior class from putting you in over your head, should be addressed or added to the system.

One more thing, it appears that the competitive balance formula isn't doing the job it was supposed to do. I'm sure most here would agree that there are certain teams in certain Divisions that should be, or at least could be, playing higher.
Competitive balance actually started with a "Tradition Factor" that would add students to the count based on success over a number of years (I believe 5 years was the number). I don't remember if it actually failed a statewide vote or if enough schools just complained enough that it was taken out before implementation.
There is a lot of time and effort spent on paperwork associated with Competitive Balance for it to have very little effect on the scope of HS sports.
 
D3 Ross
Some of the teams in region 12 that made the play-offs are just awful. Goshen, New Richmond, and Western Brown are just a few. This is just a money grab for the OHSAA. Talk about the safety and well-being of student/athletes is totally hypocrisy.
Western Brown is 21st , they arent getting in.
 
At what point do they just have everyone make the playoffs like basketball and baseball? The state would make even more money then! I'd be ok with 12 teams making it, and giving the top four seeds a bye the first week.
 
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