Ask The Ump?

Happened to us yesterday and I wasn't aware of a specific rule (I learned something). It has never been brought up to me at all and has never crossed my mind (As a player, coach and umpire) until yesterday. Players have always naturally gone back or are around the base when the ball is back in play. Coach wanted to press the issue. I asked him to clarify his concern. He mentioned what is preventing a runner from being 20 ft. from the next base before the ball is put into play? I responded that us as umpires prevent that by scanning the field before putting the ball back into play. He shook his head a little and walked away. Glad that came up because I did learn something.
Sounds related to the coach who tried to argue with me home plate is in foul territory this morning...
 
Sounds related to the coach who tried to argue with me home plate is in foul territory this morning...
Wow! That's interesting. I would have to have him stand with me right behind the plate and show him how the back sides of the plate come together at 90 degrees and are collinear with the baselines. Probably too much conversation with a coach like that though...

I had parents yelling about me calling a ball fair on a bunt when the pitcher who went to field it, touched it in fair territory and knocked it into foul territory, grabbed the ball and threw it down the RF line. My fault for the chaos that ensued in their eyes.. Yikes!!! 🤷‍♂️
 
Wow! That's interesting. I would have to have him stand with me right behind the plate and show him how the back sides of the plate come together at 90 degrees and are collinear with the baselines. Probably too much conversation with a coach like that though...
Yeah, not bringing someone to a spot on the field to lecture them.

Just let them know that by rule the entire plate is in fair territory. Shut anything down further if he wants to press it. (if the rule code allows for a protest and they decide to go that route, they can have at it. Just be sure not to gloat when someone else politely tells him he's wrong)
 
Yeah, not bringing someone to a spot on the field to lecture them.

Just let them know that by rule the entire plate is in fair territory. Shut anything down further if he wants to press it. (if the rule code allows for a protest and they decide to go that route, they can have at it. Just be sure not to gloat when someone else politely tells him he's wrong)
Well, to be fair he was already at the plate arguing it, as he came out and demanded an explanation as I stood there patiently with my mask under my arm and my hands behind my back. After him going off for a quick moment, it ended like this (quotes from my ejection report):

ME: "(name redacted), the entire plate is in fair territory, as are all of the other bases. It's been this way since about 1900. It's time to be done and get back to baseball"

HIM: "I'll F%^king tell you when we're done. That's F%^king HorseS&*t and so are you; you're wrong and you know it!"

and then he spent the rest of the game in the parking lot and the next game for that matter. Hopefully reading up the rules book. Heck he is probably not going back to that tourney at all because he also touched me.

I added the 1900 part as I always do when a coach goes off about a common rule as that's when the core basics were pretty much all codified from which all other rules are derived.
 

Bravo. The comments though are unsurprising.
Not enough...... The on line "courses" as punishment are laughable.

The conferences (each and every one in Ohio) should step up and pass a uniform regulation that prohibits an ejected fan from attending any contest for two weeks on the first offense. Violation of this results in a one year ban,

On the second offense, that fan loses the ability to attend any contest for one year. Violation of this results in a permanent ban.

On the third offense, they are banned permanently. Violation of this results in prosecution for each subsequent offense.
 
Not enough...... The on line "courses" as punishment are laughable.

The conferences (each and every one in Ohio) should step up and pass a uniform regulation that prohibits an ejected fan from attending any contest for two weeks on the first offense. Violation of this results in a one year ban,

On the second offense, that fan loses the ability to attend any contest for one year. Violation of this results in a permanent ban.

On the third offense, they are banned permanently. Violation of this results in prosecution for each subsequent offense.
I wonder though who enforces this for something like an away non-con game. How is some team an hour away to prevent this person from entering? That could be an exhaustive list? Or for a non-HS event? Say Joe Schmo is banned from ABC HS Basketball. What about AAU? Too many unknowns.
 
I wonder though who enforces this for something like an away non-con game. How is some team an hour away to prevent this person from entering? That could be an exhaustive list? Or for a non-HS event? Say Joe Schmo is banned from ABC HS Basketball. What about AAU? Too many unknowns.
I know this would leave some ambiguity but, I would assume the fan's "home" team would be responsible for looking out for said banned fan and reporting to the AD or other administrator if the fan is seen.
 
I know this would leave some ambiguity but, I would assume the fan's "home" team would be responsible for looking out for said banned fan and reporting to the AD or other administrator if the fan is seen.
That is still a grey area to me. Some AD at another school who already has a million other things to do is not going to make this a priority until many others do.
 
I wonder though who enforces this for something like an away non-con game.
On a micro level, it's almost a self reporting situation. If clown #1 is ejected Friday and shows up at a non-conference game on Tuesday, the people associated with the clown's school know.... Word will get out. In addition, my idea of the clown violating the first penalty automatically advances the penalty to the next level should be a deterrent enough to prevent 95% of this happening.
How is some team an hour away to prevent this person from entering?
See above
Or for a non-HS event? Say Joe Schmo is banned from ABC HS Basketball. What about AAU?
Well, obviously AAU and all the other pop-up tourneys run by people whose goal is to make a quick buck is a different animal. Zero accountability........ We're talking sanctioned events here.

Too many unknowns.
Yep..... because it hasn't been done around here.

The North Carolina High School Athletic Assn. has had a 365 ban for any event on the first ejection in place for years.... It can be done.
 
On a micro level, it's almost a self reporting situation. If clown #1 is ejected Friday and shows up at a non-conference game on Tuesday, the people associated with the clown's school know.... Word will get out. In addition, my idea of the clown violating the first penalty automatically advances the penalty to the next level should be a deterrent enough to prevent 95% of this happening.

See above

Well, obviously AAU and all the other pop-up tourneys run by people whose goal is to make a quick buck is a different animal. Zero accountability........ We're talking sanctioned events here.


Yep..... because it hasn't been done around here.

The North Carolina High School Athletic Assn. has had a 365 ban for any event on the first ejection in place for years.... It can be done.
I wish I had the confidence you did. I just dont see everyone getting on board for many reasons.

And the issue I have with AAU and such and why I raised it here is because often the same parents we have issues with in OHSAA are the same ones who are problems in Non-OHSAA stuff. So their rage and anger will just be exacerbated if OHSAA events are hard liners. I have seen it before many many times.

Sanctioned events are also limited in power moreso than people think. Not arguing, just thinking about the last 30 years and the mindset of the fan.

I just know too many ADs that even under OHSAA threat and policy will cave for a fan that isnt theirs (and even some for theirs).
 
I wish I had the confidence you did. I just dont see everyone getting on board for many reasons.
Don't get me wrong, I have zero confidence that this would come to fruition.

The approach to this point is signs on the wall and pregame announcements. :ROFLMAO:
And the issue I have with AAU and such and why I raised it here is because often the same parents we have issues with in OHSAA are the same ones who are problems in Non-OHSAA stuff. So their rage and anger will just be exacerbated if OHSAA events are hard liners. I have seen it before many many times.
I haven't worked summer basketball for ages, but when I did, it was out-of-towners that caused the issues. When a TD in am AAU national event reversed an ejection of both a fan and a coach (both were on the floor hurling racial slurs and physical threats) I walked out of the gym mid game, never to return for that crap. Now, the local stuff..... I agree it's always the usual suspects that are the issue.
Sanctioned events are also limited in power moreso than people think. Not arguing, just thinking about the last 30 years and the mindset of the fan.

I just know too many ADs that even under OHSAA threat and policy will cave for a fan that isnt theirs (and even some for theirs).
I, along with a good number of veteran officials across all the sports in all parts of the state have held that the OHSAA and the member schools largely view us as a necessary evil.

I'm closer than ever to taking the advice of some really good and highly regarded officials who retired "early", and stepping aside.
 
I thought this was asked about before but I can't find it.

What are guidelines used in determining when a batter is awarded first base on a HBP? You hear it a lot from coaches that "He didn't try to get out of the way."....
 
I thought this was asked about before but I can't find it.

What are guidelines used in determining when a batter is awarded first base on a HBP? You hear it a lot from coaches that "He didn't try to get out of the way."....
Did he permit the pitched ball to hit him is the rules basis in NFHS. And that is what umpire should be saying in explanations. "He didnt try to get out of the way" or its derivatives are nowhere in the rules book.

Here is a really good article from Referee magazine I've used the last 2-3 years that explains what to look for.


As a note, as this is often wrong, a HBP in NFHS which the umpire adjudicates as the batter permitting the ball to hit him the pitch is called where it crosses the plate (e.g., ball or strike) on the pitch. This means if the count is 3-1 and the batter is hit and the umpire rules him to have permitted it to hit him, and the pitch is a ball, he gets ball 4 and thus the walk. I usually say loud enough he is getting first on the walk not the HBP. Same applies for permitting it to him on say 1-2 and it is a strike, it is still strike 3.

Note also that no other runners may advance on a ball 4 situation as described unless forced. On the referenced strike 3 play, the ball is still dead as it always is on a HBP and no runners could advance.

NCAA and OBR this rule results in an automatic strike no matter what. Now I can tell you in practicality, my strike zone gets real big on cases like this especially in the summer...
 
Is that part in the rules book also?
This is a good example of why umpires are taught to be rule book experts without being rule book lawyers.

In NFHS, a batter can not permit the pitch to hit them. Like any other judgment call, its umpire discretion. However; the spirit of the rule is not to reward pitchers for throwing 2 feet inside, it’s to dissuade children/minors from putting themselves at risk of harm to get a base when they could easily have gotten out of the way.

A fastball is almost always going to be awarded first bc the reaction time needed to process the pitch and intentionally decide to not move is not there, a slow baby curve is another story.

The best saying I’ve heard is to ask myself, did the pitch hit the batter or did the batter hit into the pitch? Too many coaches want to beg for no base award instead of teaching their pitcher how to locate their pitches.
 
This is a good example of why umpires are taught to be rule book experts without being rule book lawyers.

In NFHS, a batter can not permit the pitch to hit them. Like any other judgment call, its umpire discretion. However; the spirit of the rule is not to reward pitchers for throwing 2 feet inside, it’s to dissuade children/minors from putting themselves at risk of harm to get a base when they could easily have gotten out of the way.

A fastball is almost always going to be awarded first bc the reaction time needed to process the pitch and intentionally decide to not move is not there, a slow baby curve is another story.

The best saying I’ve heard is to ask myself, did the pitch hit the batter or did the batter hit into the pitch? Too many coaches want to beg for no base award instead of teaching their pitcher how to locate their pitches.
To be fair, the bold part is on all pitches not just the ones which touch batters.
 
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