Ask The Ump?

[111411]

A couple of strange calls today in a 2024 Nations Baseball/Five Tool Youth State Championships 14U.

Two older adult umpires.

Kid hits one over the third base bag, goes into foul territory AFTER crossing the bag, scores a runner from second, advances the runner to third that was on first, and ends up on first. HP signals fair ball, calls time, meets with FU, who was in the middle of the field, and returns to inform both coaches that the ball was foul. NOOOOOOO.

Second instance, opponent has a runner on first, one out, ground ball to SS, who flips to 2b, getting the runner, who once being called out, runs into the 2B, with both arms extended. Blues call timeout, confer, and tell both staffs that yes, there was interference, but they are giving the kid a warning. They deemed to batter/runner safe at first, saying they don't want to toss anyone. Rule?

But then our head coach didn't help himself by calling for a fake bunt steal of third with a lefty up, in a 4-4 game. The runner was out by 10 feet. He also didn't help his cause by calling for the 3 hitter (.530 average) to bunt with no outs and runners on first and second. Of course a pop up, also nailing the runner on second.

 

[AllSports12]

A couple of strange calls today in a 2024 Nations Baseball/Five Tool Youth State Championships 14U.

Two older adult umpires.

Kid hits one over the third base bag, goes into foul territory AFTER crossing the bag, scores a runner from second, advances the runner to third that was on first, and ends up on first. HP signals fair ball, calls time, meets with FU, who was in the middle of the field, and returns to inform both coaches that the ball was foul. NOOOOOOO.

I’m assuming the ball hit over third was a ground ball……correct?

Second instance, opponent has a runner on first, one out, ground ball to SS, who flips to 2b, getting the runner, who once being called out, runs into the 2B, with both arms extended. Blues call timeout, confer, and tell both staffs that yes, there was interference, but they are giving the kid a warning. They deemed to batter/runner safe at first, saying they don't want to toss anyone. Rule?

As far as the decisions by the umpires and the head coach…….Welcome to summer baseball.

 

[111411]

Yes, it was a ground ball.

At least the coach told the kids after the game that he screwed up. I'll give him that.

 

[bucksman]

Second instance, opponent has a runner on first, one out, ground ball to SS, who flips to 2b, getting the runner, who once being called out, runs into the 2B, with both arms extended. Blues call timeout, confer, and tell both staffs that yes, there was interference, but they are giving the kid a warning. They deemed to batter/runner safe at first, saying they don't want to toss anyone. Rule?

For the sake of rules interpretation, the act of interference should by rule result in a second out on the play, with that out being the batter-runner. If and only if it was judged to be malicious contact would the player that committed the interference need to be ejected.

 

[thePITman]

Not sure I've ever seen this happen (or ever will), but I was randomly thinking about it the other day...

Let's assume a batter draws a walk and goes to first base. Obviously a batter who hits a ball can run through first base. But a few questions:

1. Can a batter who draws a walk also run through first base?
2. Let's say the batter walks to first (doesn't run through it, doesn't round it). When he gets to first, he steps on it, then takes his foot off the bag while the catcher throws the ball to the first baseman who applies the tag. I'm assuming the runner is out? If a batter who walks IS allowed to run through first, I didn't know the differentiation between (1) running through first and (2) getting to first and stepping off the bag. I'm assuming it's at the umpire's discretion?

I've seen SO many batters round/step off first after a walk, that I've thought about having my catcher occasionally throw down as the runner reaches first base and catch them sleeping. LoL (Okay, not seriously contemplating it, but man, it'd be funny if it worked)

 

[AllSports12]

Not sure I've ever seen this happen (or ever will), but I was randomly thinking about it the other day...

Let's assume a batter draws a walk and goes to first base. Obviously a batter who hits a ball can run through first base. But a few questions:

1. Can a batter who draws a walk also run through first base?
2. Let's say the batter walks to first (doesn't run through it, doesn't round it). When he gets to first, he steps on it, then takes his foot off the bag while the catcher throws the ball to the first baseman who applies the tag. I'm assuming the runner is out? If a batter who walks IS allowed to run through first, I didn't know the differentiation between (1) running through first and (2) getting to first and stepping off the bag. I'm assuming it's at the umpire's discretion?

I've seen SO many batters round/step off first after a walk, that I've thought about having my catcher occasionally throw down as the runner reaches first base and catch them sleeping. LoL (Okay, not seriously contemplating it, but man, it'd be funny if it worked)

Prior to the 2018 season, a batter-runner awarded first base via a base on balls (live) was at risk to be put out if he left the base for any reason.

The rules committee changed the rule for the 2018 season by affording the same protection that a batter-runner has when they overrun first. That protection ends once there is an attempt to advance or a feint to advance to second base occurs.

If a batter runner stops on the bag, then steps off....... they are at risk of being put out. (overrunning and stopping and stepping off are two different actions... and yes, they are subject to the judgment of the umpire covering the play)

 

[111411]

I thought this was an obvious one, especially since my eight year old grandson knew the rule.

14u travel game. Bases loaded. Gound ball to the right side, which hits the runner going from first to second. Umpire correctly calls dead ball, base runner is out, EXCEPT he allowed the runners that were on second and third to advance. Coached argued to no avail. Ump said he knew the rule. I always figured this was Baseball 101.

 

[AllSports12]

I thought this was an obvious one, especially since my eight year old grandson knew the rule.

14u travel game. Bases loaded. Gound ball to the right side, which hits the runner going from first to second. Umpire correctly calls dead ball, base runner is out, EXCEPT he allowed the runners that were on second and third to advance. Coached argued to no avail. Ump said he knew the rule. I always figured this was Baseball 101.

Like I said after your previous post……

Welcome to summer baseball and summer umpires.

You get what you get deal with it the best way possible.

 

[Thavoice]

I thought this was an obvious one, especially since my eight year old grandson knew the rule.

14u travel game. Bases loaded. Gound ball to the right side, which hits the runner going from first to second. Umpire correctly calls dead ball, base runner is out, EXCEPT he allowed the runners that were on second and third to advance. Coached argued to no avail. Ump said he knew the rule. I always figured this was Baseball 101.

Yea when he called dead ball....they gotta go back.

However....not all instances like this is an out. INF playing in and batted ball is passed the fielders it's play on...most don't know that

 

[111411]

Yea when he called dead ball....they gotta go back.

However....not all instances like this is an out. INF playing in and batted ball is passed the fielders it's play on...most don't know that

Yes, I knew that. The ball didn't pass the infielder.

 

[thePITman]

Catchers not being allowed to wear 2-piece helmets like you see in the MLB... is that an NFHS rule or an OHSAA adaptation? You'd think if 2-piece helmets are safe enough for MLB catchers, they'd be safe enough for high schoolers. We had a 14U championship game where they follow high school rules, and the home plate umpire (rightfully) made the catcher change his helmet. But he was the first umpire to correctly enforce it all year. (he's a HS-certified umpire who regularly gets games at the State Tournament)

Also, another topic has come up this spring (in the same league) about a team's on-deck batter only being allowed to swing/warm up on their team's side of home plate in foul territory. According to the rules, you must stay on your side. But (again, in our 14U league), we see some of the good umpires applying some discretion and allowing players to warm up on the opposing side (behind the batter) when certain fields don't have the room to do so safely on the proper side. Is this something umps can use discretion on in high school, too? Or is it non-negotiatble? And if there isn't room, they just use the dugout or outside the fence?

 

[umpire16]

Catchers not being allowed to wear 2-piece helmets like you see in the MLB... is that an NFHS rule or an OHSAA adaptation? You'd think if 2-piece helmets are safe enough for MLB catchers, they'd be safe enough for high schoolers. We had a 14U championship game where they follow high school rules, and the home plate umpire (rightfully) made the catcher change his helmet. But he was the first umpire to correctly enforce it all year. (he's a HS-certified umpire who regularly gets games at the State Tournament)

This falls under rule 1-5-4 for NFHS (not one of the state adoption rules). The helmet mask combo for a catcher must meet NOCSAE standards for safety at time of manufacture. It must also have full ear protection (dual ear flaps).

"The commercially manufactured catcher's head, face and throat protection ma be a one-piece or a multi-piece design."

So by rule, the two piece is allowed if it meets the standard and has dual ear flaps. HOWEVER, to my knowledge there are NO two piece units that meet the NOCSAE standard OR have the dual ear flaps, so you cannot wear them.

There's alot of MLB stuff approved for their use and not for kids.

 

[AllSports12]

Catchers not being allowed to wear 2-piece helmets like you see in the MLB... is that an NFHS rule or an OHSAA adaptation? You'd think if 2-piece helmets are safe enough for MLB catchers, they'd be safe enough for high schoolers. We had a 14U championship game where they follow high school rules, and the home plate umpire (rightfully) made the catcher change his helmet. But he was the first umpire to correctly enforce it all year. (he's a HS-certified umpire who regularly gets games at the State Tournament)

The NFHS requirement for dual ear flaps on the catcher's helmets was handed down prior to the 2001 season. It was necessary to include this to the rule because NOCSAE employs a side of head testing component. Absent the dual flaps, NOCSAE would not certify the aparatus, making it illegal under NFHS rules.

Also, another topic has come up this spring (in the same league) about a team's on-deck batter only being allowed to swing/warm up on their team's side of home plate in foul territory. According to the rules, you must stay on your side. But (again, in our 14U league), we see some of the good umpires applying some discretion and allowing players to warm up on the opposing side (behind the batter) when certain fields don't have the room to do so safely on the proper side. Is this something umps can use discretion on in high school, too? Or is it non-negotiatble? And if there isn't room, they just use the dugout or outside the fence?

This is explictly noted in rule 1-2-3.

"The on-deck circle should be to the side and away from home plate, 37 feet if space allows. Neither team's players shall warm up in the other team's on-deck circle.. The on-deck circle does not have to be occupied, but a player may choose to do so, provided the on-deck circle is located safely away from home plate."

The primary reason for rationale for this requirement is as follows......

- It keeps opponents away from each others' dugouts

 

[UMU92]

Frustrating to hear some coaches complain that we can't make a call on the check swing when in B or C. It's not the best position for making the call, but there are times when the PU gets his view blocked and needs help.

 

[Thavoice]

Yes, I knew that. The ball didn't pass the infielder.

I still remember when I learned that rule in Pony League. Our jackwagon coach pulled the team off the field and quit the tournament on a batt3d ball hitting the runner.

 

[AllSports12]

Frustrating to hear some coaches complain that we can't make a call on the check swing when in B or C. It's not the best position for making the call, but there are times when the PU gets his view blocked and needs help.

It's equally as frustrating to hear many umpires endorse the same line of thinking....... (and it's not limited to the PU having their view blocked)

 

[111411]

I know, it's summer ball, and we're not getting the best, but try this one.

Runners at first and third, no outs. Runner on first breaks toward second, pitcher steps off and gets the runner in a quick rundown. The SS interferes with the runner and the FU immediately raises his hands, and I would assume, verbalized interference. After this has happened, the 2B throws to third, with the 3b tagging the runner. No call. The blues call timeout, confer and tell the coaches that the runner heading to second is safe because of interference, but the runner on third was out.............

I'm going with a delayed dead ball, everyone is safe.

Interpretation?

 

[AllSports12]

I know, it's summer ball, and we're not getting the best, but try this one.

Runners at first and third, no outs. Runner on first breaks toward second, pitcher steps off and gets the runner in a quick rundown. The SS interferes with the runner and the FU immediately raises his hands, and I would assume, verbalized interference. After this has happened, the 2B throws to third, with the 3b tagging the runner. No call. The blues call timeout, confer and tell the coaches that the runner heading to second is safe because of interference, but the runner on third was out.............

I'm going with a delayed dead ball, everyone is safe.

Interpretation?

Well, first.....

Fielders obstruct and batters and/or runners interfere.

In this situation, F6 obstructed R1 creating a delayed dead ball situation. The "hands in the air" by the umpire are ignored unless there is a verbal "time out" or "dead ball" declaration. The out on R3 at third base should stand and R1 is awarded second base for the obstruction by F6.

 

[thePITman]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1803841649006592235

 

[lasalle9802]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1803841649006592235

Saw this happen this high school season, but the kid got tossed in the first inning.

 

[AllSports12]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1803841649006592235

When you read the whole post, it screams "uninformed coach whining" (see the little dig about the strike zone )..... That said, it is travel ball and there are huge disparities in the knowledge and ability of the umpires.

In talking about the situation rule-wise, the pitcher was likely removed from pitching rather than "tossed" from the game.

NFHS Case Book - 10.2.3 SITUATION C
F1's cap frequently falls off F1's head and in the umire's judgment, it is either distracting to the batter or delaying the game.

Ruling
The umpire shall instruct the defensive team's coach that F1's cap must be secured. If the situation is not corrected, F1 will be removed as pitcher.

 

[thePITman]

When you read the whole post, it screams "uninformed coach whining" (see the little dig about the strike zone )..... That said, it is travel ball and there are huge disparities in the knowledge and ability of the umpires.

In talking about the situation rule-wise, the pitcher was likely removed from pitching rather than "tossed" from the game.

NFHS Case Book - 10.2.3 SITUATION C
F1's cap frequently falls off F1's head and in the umire's judgment, it is either distracting to the batter or delaying the game.

Ruling
The umpire shall instruct the defensive team's coach that F1's cap must be secured. If the situation is not corrected, F1 will be removed as pitcher.

What is the rule for this? Or is it just the equipment rule about needing to wear a hat, and only the Case Book calls out the specifics of how to handle it? People are asking me. LoL

 

[AllSports12]

What is the rule for this? Or is it just the equipment rule about needing to wear a hat, and only the Case Book calls out the specifics of how to handle it? People are asking me. LoL

First, rule 1-4-1 requires the players to wear hats or a head protector.

The rule associated with the situation at hand is...

Rule 10 - Umpiring -- Section 2 - Umpire-In-Chief
ART. 3 . . . His duties include those listed in 10-2-1, 2 and the following:
g. Make final decision on points not covered by the rules

 

[Thavoice]

Mr. Allsports,

2 scenarios of something i saw in MLB highlights this past 10 days:

1. On a failure to tag out situation to end an inning (In regards to the triple play last week where you saw the guy on 3rd sprinting home...).
*If a runner crosses home plate before the third out is made on a play when a runner did not tag up (not the runner who scored), does the run count? The 1B was very nonchalant in throwing to 2nd base and the runner on third almost made it home in time.
i was alwasy under the impression it does.

2. For HS pitch counts......relief pitcher ends the inning with a pickoff(s) without throwing a pitch, happened in MLB recently.
*In terms of the HS Pitch count, does this constitute a pitch?

Back when we were bangin' and the rule was 10 innings in a 3 day period, we were told that since it was an out, it counted (of course, for the full inning). I asked about this scenario one summer when we were in the losers bracket finals of the ACME State and we had to beat Defiance twice that next day for the title if we won, and were up against it innings wise. During a rain delay in the last inning the opposing team's stud hitter who had been raking all tourny was up with the tieing and winning runs on base with 2 outs. We didnt want to burn our ACE for a full inning for 1 out so we inquired about the pickoff play if we put him in and they did concur.....even tho no pitch would be made, if an out is incured it counted as an inning.


Just curious...carry on.

 

[AllSports12]

Mr. Allsports,

2 scenarios of something i saw in MLB highlights this past 10 days:

1. On a failure to tag out situation to end an inning (In regards to the triple play last week where you saw the guy on 3rd sprinting home...).
*If a runner crosses home plate before the third out is made on a play when a runner did not tag up (not the runner who scored), does the run count? The 1B was very nonchalant in throwing to 2nd base and the runner on third almost made it home in time.
i was alwasy under the impression it does.

Yes, the run counts. This is a time play, not a force play. (run would not score if the third out was via a force play or when the batter runner is put out before they reach first base)

2. For HS pitch counts......relief pitcher ends the inning with a pickoff(s) without throwing a pitch, happened in MLB recently.
*In terms of the HS Pitch count, does this constitute a pitch?

Back when we were bangin' and the rule was 10 innings in a 3 day period, we were told that since it was an out, it counted (of course, for the full inning). I asked about this scenario one summer when we were in the losers bracket finals of the ACME State and we had to beat Defiance twice that next day for the title if we won, and were up against it innings wise. During a rain delay in the last inning the opposing team's stud hitter who had been raking all tourny was up with the tieing and winning runs on base with 2 outs. We didnt want to burn our ACE for a full inning for 1 out so we inquired about the pickoff play if we put him in and they did concur.....even tho no pitch would be made, if an out is incured it counted as an inning.


Just curious...carry on.

Each state has their own pitch count regulations.... In Ohio, this is not a pitch.

Umpires have absolutely no role in counting pitches in Ohio. If there is a descrepency and a solution/agreement cannot be reached between both head coaches, the home book (or official scorer, if assigned) will be the official tally.

 

[Thavoice]

Yes, the run counts. This is a time play, not a force play. (run would not score if the third out was via a force play or when the batter runner is put out before they reach first base)

Each state has their own pitch count regulations.... In Ohio, this is not a pitch.

Umpires have absolutely no role in counting pitches in Ohio. If there is a descrepency and a solution/agreement cannot be reached between both head coaches, the home book (or official scorer, if assigned) will be the official tally.

Yes, I am aware of that part.

I just thought, with the new pitch count rules, that the instance we saw in MLB recently with the guy not throwing a pitch would have a diff ruling from now to when they went by outs.

Did you see the MLB triple play I was referencing and how urgent the guy on 3rd was running home, but the 1st basmen was very dilberate in getting the 3rd out from I remember.

 

[AllSports12]

Did you see the MLB triple play I was referencing and how urgent the guy on 3rd was running home, but the 1st basmen was very dilberate in getting the 3rd out from I remember.

If you are talking Phillies/Tigers, I did see that.

 

[UMU92]

after a foul ball, does a runner on base have to go back a touch the base they are at before the ball is put back in play?

 

[AllSports12]

after a foul ball, does a runner on base have to go back a touch the base they are at before the ball is put back in play?

The rule says they do, but there is no appeal process or penalty for this.

The purpose of the rule is the prevent the runner from taking a position so close to the next base that it creates an unintended advantage for the offense. All that is required is the runner return to the vicinity of the base. The umpire can prevent this from becoming an issue by waiting to put the ball into play until the runner(s) have met that standard.

I cannot recall any situation in my career that this was an issue that I needed to address.

 

[UMU92]

The rule says they do, but there is no appeal process or penalty for this.

The purpose of the rule is the prevent the runner from taking a position so close to the next base that it creates an unintended advantage for the offense. All that is required is the runner return to the vicinity of the base. The umpire can prevent this from becoming an issue by waiting to put the ball into play until the runner(s) have met that standard.

I cannot recall any situation in my career that this was an issue that I needed to address.

Happened to us yesterday and I wasn't aware of a specific rule (I learned something). It has never been brought up to me at all and has never crossed my mind (As a player, coach and umpire) until yesterday. Players have always naturally gone back or are around the base when the ball is back in play. Coach wanted to press the issue. I asked him to clarify his concern. He mentioned what is preventing a runner from being 20 ft. from the next base before the ball is put into play? I responded that us as umpires prevent that by scanning the field before putting the ball back into play. He shook his head a little and walked away. Glad that came up because I did learn something.