Yes the trap always easier to see from beside versus straight on. We worked a 3 man game last night and my U1 had a solid call on a no trap by going down the like and getting a fabulous angle.
Ask The Ump?
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thePITman
Well-known member
During an at-bat, the batter steps one foot out of the box to receive signs from his base coach. While this is happening, the pitcher steps onto the rubber, receives his sign from the catcher, and comes to a set position. The batter then steps fully back into the box. The umpire keeps his hand raised until the batter is set and ready, at which point he lowers his hand and signals that the pitcher may proceed with the pitch.
The batting team’s coach raised an objection, arguing that the pitcher should not be allowed to come set while the batter is out of the box getting signs.
The umpire explained:
“The batter is permitted to step one foot out of the box to check signs after each pitch. As long as he’s not taking too long, I allow that as a courtesy. While the batter is doing that, the pitcher is allowed to get on the rubber, receive his sign, and come set. But I won’t allow a quick-pitch — I keep my hand up until the batter is fully in the box and ready, then I give the signal to pitch.”
The coach responded, “So does my batter have to call ‘time’ every time he wants to get a sign?”
The umpire responded, “They can if they want to, but it’s not required, and I am not required to grant it every time, either. I allow the batter to step one foot out after each pitch for signs, provided it’s not excessive. I’ll continue holding up the pitcher until the batter is ready.”
Was this handled properly by the umpire? I believe it was - and thought this was common knowledge - but I want to make sure. My team was in the field, so (1) I want to make sure my pitchers are within their rights to continue what they've been doing, and (2) since it was a home game and we have the umpires frequently, I want to make sure the umpires are handling this in the right way, as well. Note: There were no instances where our pitcher quick-pitched. Their coach just didn't like that we were coming set before they were fully in the box.
The batting team’s coach raised an objection, arguing that the pitcher should not be allowed to come set while the batter is out of the box getting signs.
The umpire explained:
“The batter is permitted to step one foot out of the box to check signs after each pitch. As long as he’s not taking too long, I allow that as a courtesy. While the batter is doing that, the pitcher is allowed to get on the rubber, receive his sign, and come set. But I won’t allow a quick-pitch — I keep my hand up until the batter is fully in the box and ready, then I give the signal to pitch.”
The coach responded, “So does my batter have to call ‘time’ every time he wants to get a sign?”
The umpire responded, “They can if they want to, but it’s not required, and I am not required to grant it every time, either. I allow the batter to step one foot out after each pitch for signs, provided it’s not excessive. I’ll continue holding up the pitcher until the batter is ready.”
Was this handled properly by the umpire? I believe it was - and thought this was common knowledge - but I want to make sure. My team was in the field, so (1) I want to make sure my pitchers are within their rights to continue what they've been doing, and (2) since it was a home game and we have the umpires frequently, I want to make sure the umpires are handling this in the right way, as well. Note: There were no instances where our pitcher quick-pitched. Their coach just didn't like that we were coming set before they were fully in the box.
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Yes, in HS baseball the hand up as described indicates "do not pitch." The ball is dead when the signal is up but the pitcher could perform this approach so long as they do not pitch until the umpire permits it. I will say I'd prefer they do not do this but it is legal.
Batter is required to keep one foot in the box, so this is proper.
The umpire should avoid granting time excessively, especially to the batter. I usually have my hand up and say "denied, I got you covered, he isnt pitching until we're ready" and that prevents it from delaying things.
I may grant time when needed, but try to avoid that to a batter (especially when getting reset after a foul ball or conference). Time should never be granted to a batter just stepping in the box. IMHO, Time is granted way too often. My personal favorite are the infielders who request time to throw it back to the pitcher. Nope, not happening.
Also the umpire is correct, time is a request and only happens when granted by the umpire.
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
This should never be allowed with runners on base. HPU holding his hand up is making the ball dead. Heaven forbid a pickoff occurs or runner takes off early and now we’re trying to kill action as outs are Being made or runners advance safely (all negated)
Not sure why, legal or not, HPU wouldn’t just tell f2 to hold off giving signals until batter is in the box, so much simpler.
If I’m umpiring I’m not holding my hand up with runners on, ever, if P starts delivery early, penalize accordingly .
Also, offensive coach prob got his argument from watching college and/or pro ball, where coming set before batter is alert is penalized. If your P has any aspirations of moving up, may as well get out of that habit.
Personally I see no benefit for P to do that, the only possible explanation is they want to P as quick as they can, which is either meant to deceive, is penalized , or forces HPU to have his hand up the entire game
thePITman
Well-known member
The base coach's argument was that, if his batters are required to ask for "time" to check for signs each time, it slows down the game immensely. The same would be said if the pitcher has to wait for the batter to be fully in the box and ready prior to getting his sign from the catcher. Our pitcher never attempted to quick pitch, but it seems lame and unnecessary for the pitcher to have to wait all that time to be able to get his sign and come set. Just my opinion. I'm glad to hear there's no rule against it, as long as the intent is not to deceive and/or quick pitch, which we do neither. Just a freshman pitcher trying to throw strikes. LoL
This is why the handup indicates do not pitch or anything else and then is a quick restart. I had this tonight occur a few times in an 8-4 game that took 1:39 to play.
Error.
Charge to the turf monster
thePITman
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure there's a rule about either a balk, illegal pitch, batter asking for extra time to get ready, or something, where the umpire can grant/call it, but if the batter swings at the pitch anyway, whatever the umpire called is nullified, and play goes on. What is the scenario I'm thinking of?
Or maybe I'm just thinking of slow pitch softball when the umpire calls "illegal pitch" when the height of the pitch wasn't within the legal range. Haha!
Or maybe I'm just thinking of slow pitch softball when the umpire calls "illegal pitch" when the height of the pitch wasn't within the legal range. Haha!
In high school rules a Balk or illegal pitch is always a dead ball. Anything that occurs after the call is automatically and always nullified. There are no exceptions to this rule.
Now, there is a proposal going through the rules committee that would make these situations potentially live balls similar to other levels but as of right now that is not the rule.
Rule five does identify certain situations in which it is a delayed dead ball we are playing action can occur prior to the Ump Umpire is calling the ball dead. That typically applies to obstruction situations and certain interference scenarios, but that is about it.
What is the rule, if any, for a baseball game to be in the 3rd inn. and is called because of lighting. One team's coach wants to resume the game where they left off, another day. Put everybody [baserunners, batting order,etc.] where ever they were, and preserve stats. Do both teams coaches have to agree on this? Is it within the OHSAA rules?
Per OHSAA rules, any game that is stopped prior to becoming official is considered a SUSPENDED game. This means that if the teams play again, the game is resumed from the point of interruption. This is not MLB where if a game is stopped prior to 5 (or 4-1/2) innings, the game starts over completely.
AllSports12
Moderator
That's a great question.... (and properly answered by Bucksman)
This situation pops up frequently in this area of the country.
thePITman
Well-known member
In last night's game, the opposing team was taking an excessive amount of time between pitches. And I mean, it took...
The opposing coach wouldn’t signal the pitch call to the catcher until the batter was already set in the box and the pitcher was on the mound. Then the catcher would slowly relay the sign to the pitcher, who took his time making a decision. It got to the point where our batters were requesting "time" two or three times per at-bat — which is very unlike us. The umpire didn't have to grant all those requests, but he was doing so because the delays were clearly unreasonable.
The pace of the game was painfully slow — it took 2h 30m for the 6-inning game. After the fourth inning, the home plate umpire informed our coach that from that point on, each batter would only be granted one timeout per at-bat. In response, we asked the umpire to speak with the opposing coach about speeding up their pitch-calling. He did have that conversation, and after a pitching change — and a big inning that put us comfortably in the lead — the pace improved.
The whole day was already wet and miserable, , but many of us felt that the opposing team was intentionally trying to delay the game, hoping for it to be postponed and resumed the next day. In addition, at the start of every inning, we had to wait several minutes for their catcher to get fully geared up again. They never sent out a backup catcher or coach to help the pitcher stay ready in the meantime. Altogether, their approach felt deliberately designed to stretch the game out as long as possible.
So — what options are available in situations like this? Was it handled properly, or could more have been done?
The opposing coach wouldn’t signal the pitch call to the catcher until the batter was already set in the box and the pitcher was on the mound. Then the catcher would slowly relay the sign to the pitcher, who took his time making a decision. It got to the point where our batters were requesting "time" two or three times per at-bat — which is very unlike us. The umpire didn't have to grant all those requests, but he was doing so because the delays were clearly unreasonable.
The pace of the game was painfully slow — it took 2h 30m for the 6-inning game. After the fourth inning, the home plate umpire informed our coach that from that point on, each batter would only be granted one timeout per at-bat. In response, we asked the umpire to speak with the opposing coach about speeding up their pitch-calling. He did have that conversation, and after a pitching change — and a big inning that put us comfortably in the lead — the pace improved.
The whole day was already wet and miserable, , but many of us felt that the opposing team was intentionally trying to delay the game, hoping for it to be postponed and resumed the next day. In addition, at the start of every inning, we had to wait several minutes for their catcher to get fully geared up again. They never sent out a backup catcher or coach to help the pitcher stay ready in the meantime. Altogether, their approach felt deliberately designed to stretch the game out as long as possible.
So — what options are available in situations like this? Was it handled properly, or could more have been done?
In last night's game, the opposing team was taking an excessive amount of time between pitches. And I mean, it took...
The opposing coach wouldn’t signal the pitch call to the catcher until the batter was already set in the box and the pitcher was on the mound. Then the catcher would slowly relay the sign to the pitcher, who took his time making a decision. It got to the point where our batters were requesting "time" two or three times per at-bat — which is very unlike us. The umpire didn't have to grant all those requests, but he was doing so because the delays were clearly unreasonable.
The pace of the game was painfully slow — it took 2h 30m for the 6-inning game. After the fourth inning, the home plate umpire informed our coach that from that point on, each batter would only be granted one timeout per at-bat. In response, we asked the umpire to speak with the opposing coach about speeding up their pitch-calling. He did have that conversation, and after a pitching change — and a big inning that put us comfortably in the lead — the pace improved.
The whole day was already wet and miserable, , but many of us felt that the opposing team was intentionally trying to delay the game, hoping for it to be postponed and resumed the next day. In addition, at the start of every inning, we had to wait several minutes for their catcher to get fully geared up again. They never sent out a backup catcher or coach to help the pitcher stay ready in the meantime. Altogether, their approach felt deliberately designed to stretch the game out as long as possible.
So — what options are available in situations like this? Was it handled properly, or could more have been done?L
Let me address this by what I see as the core issues.
1. Receipt of signals - in order to legally receive signals (whether traditional by using hand or other signs, or electronic) the pitcher and catcher have to be legally in positions. The batter is irrelevant, though proper game management says the umpire should keep the batter in the box unless his actions take him out (e.g., an offensive conference, swinging, running out a foul ball). So, there are certain circumstances which must be met to even give signs. Now the coach is perfectly able and allowed to signal or call in the pitch without any of this, but that is hard to police unless the item I speak of in #2 comes in to play.
2. Pitch time - there is a 20 second clock that exists under 6-2-2d: "failing to pitch or make or attempt a play, including a legal feint, within 20 seconds after the pitcher has received the ball." Now, most officials dont count until they deem time is excessive. Personally, if I see it I will start the basketball type count with my arm to show that I am paying attention. If the pitcher gets close often, I use preventative officiating to remind him then will call if needed (Penalty is a ball added to the count). In 28 years I have called it maybe twice and it was in travel ball.
3. Granting of time - entirely up to the official. Excessive requests should not be granted and game management by the official says to use verbal and other means to keep it moving. I usually tell the batter to not worry, I wont let him pitch until we are ready within the confines of the rules. If it gets excessive, unless safety is an issue, I deny.
4. Between innings is one minute or 5 pitches, whichever comes first (unless new pitcher then it is 8 always). It should be policed early to keep them moving. If a catcher was on base or last out, I tend to look first to see a backup and if not obvious I will say to the team "hey let's get someone out here for the pitcher." If the pitcher is delaying, I count for the one minute and I will even say after they come out to take it down on the first pitch. I will say that many officials are not great at enforcing this but in post-season it should be a hallmark of good officiating. If they do not get someone and they get reduced pitches, that is on them.
5. As to intentionally trying to stall with weather, that is hard to prove. I understand the inkling it may be happening but it is similar to stalling in timed tournaments. If you are not doing anything against the rules, it is what is is. That said, however, continuing with weather is up to the officials. I am sure they felt pressure to get it in as delaying post-season games is a nightmare to make up but I was not there.
On Tuesday I worked a 3:30 game. 7 innings, 22 runs, 32 hits, 8 errors, 11 pitchers. Nothing done to stall, sometimes they just happen. Conversely a run rule last night was 75 minutes.
So without being there, I cannot say it if was perfectly handled. Hopefully this reply helps elaborate on a few things.
AllSports12
Moderator
First off, I've seen much worse than 2:30 for 6 innings.In last night's game, the opposing team was taking an excessive amount of time between pitches. And I mean, it took...
The opposing coach wouldn’t signal the pitch call to the catcher until the batter was already set in the box and the pitcher was on the mound. Then the catcher would slowly relay the sign to the pitcher, who took his time making a decision. It got to the point where our batters were requesting "time" two or three times per at-bat — which is very unlike us. The umpire didn't have to grant all those requests, but he was doing so because the delays were clearly unreasonable.
The pace of the game was painfully slow — it took 2h 30m for the 6-inning game. After the fourth inning, the home plate umpire informed our coach that from that point on, each batter would only be granted one timeout per at-bat. In response, we asked the umpire to speak with the opposing coach about speeding up their pitch-calling. He did have that conversation, and after a pitching change — and a big inning that put us comfortably in the lead — the pace improved.
The whole day was already wet and miserable, , but many of us felt that the opposing team was intentionally trying to delay the game, hoping for it to be postponed and resumed the next day. In addition, at the start of every inning, we had to wait several minutes for their catcher to get fully geared up again. They never sent out a backup catcher or coach to help the pitcher stay ready in the meantime. Altogether, their approach felt deliberately designed to stretch the game out as long as possible.
So — what options are available in situations like this? Was it handled properly, or could more have been done?
Now, as far as this game and your question..... (without being there, I cannot speak to what you claim happened)
The rules mandate that if the pitcher, after receiving the ball, fails to pitch, make an attempt at a play (including a legal feint) within 20 seconds....... a ball is awarded to the batter. Also note, that the batter must be in the batter's box for this count to begin.
If an umpire recognizes an attempt(s) to illegally delay the game in other manners that you describe, they should warn the head coach and order him to step up the pace. Failure to do so should result in at minimum a restriction to the bench and at maximum an ejection......... A forfeiture could be declared, but that should be a last resort...... the very last resort.
thePITman
Well-known member
Thanks, guys! I was not aware of the 20-second rule in high school. If enforced, that would have solved a lot of problems last night, as I'm sure it was double that on many occasions (from the point the pitcher received the ball to when the next pitch was thrown). The main issue was the catcher/coach communication - catcher took forever to look for the signal, then coach took forever to signal it back to the catcher. I understand the rule of the pitcher not taking signs until being on the rubber, but by the time the catcher was preparing to relay the sign to the pitcher, we were already approaching the 20-second mark. Haha!
I figured there wasn't much that could be done about it. Was more curious of your perspective and how you guys would handle it as umpires. Thanks!
I figured there wasn't much that could be done about it. Was more curious of your perspective and how you guys would handle it as umpires. Thanks!
I will say that this electronic things allowance...the schools who took forever to get through the signal rotation still take forever to say the pitch signal over the headset. It's kind of funny.
Baseballfan20
Active member
Catch or no catch??
Ive got at least 5 steps from catch to ball out.
Was the action of the catch complete?
AllSports12
Moderator
Number of steps is irrelevant.
Rule 2-9-1
ART. 1 . . . A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in the hand or glove of a live ball in flight and firmly holding it, provided the fielder does not use the cap, protector, mask, pocket or other part of the uniform to trap the ball. The catch of a fly ball by a fielder is not completed until the continuing action of the catch is completed. A fielder who catches a ball and then runs into a wall or another player and drops the ball has not made a catch. A fielder, at full speed, who catches a ball and whose initial momentum carries the fielder several more yards after which the ball drops from the fielder's glove has not made a catch.