Why not? What is to stop a proposal from going to the NFHS committee on such an aspect? Or the OHSAA from putting a general sports regulation? We also said for years that they wouldnt empower officials to address concussions, and here we are. Legislators have unique ways of acting, too. You absolutism is not always finite.
Ask The Ump?
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AllSports12
Moderator
Exactly
What is often lost is the fact tha Ohio Law governs what can and cannot be done.
AllSports12
Moderator
There's no reason for it. (see re-entry rule)
That covers a starter re-entering once, and not subs. If a sub gets into this situation and has to leave, they could not return. The injury clock rule covers more than one instance and is rooted in caution, so I will disagree it will never happen.
AllSports12
Moderator
Injury clock has no bearing in a sport with no clock. And the fact that this has never been floated to the rules committee should be an indication that this is a solution searching for a problem.
This is why we only talk about NFHS Rules/OHSAA rules and mechanics and not try to inject policies from NAIA, NCAA, USA Volleyball, AAU Basketball, USSF, USSSA Baseball, et al, into our discussions.
There is no clock in volleyball either. Relax. Most of us work multiple levels and our minds think very differently so we're naturally going to process among all codes. And in a sport with no clock we continually are told to keep the game moving, so an injury clock would achieve that aim to an extent.
My point simply was thinking absolutely nothing would occur is insolent. We also said for years jewelry was terrible, and now it's allowed.
Every year the proposals brought to the committee include ones most of us have not thought of before, that is why the process exists. You think the double first base in college baseball was some massive solution from a problem? It wasn't.
AllSports12
Moderator
The page was designed to discuss NFHS/OHSAA rules, mechanics, and regulations for the purpose of educating people and an attempt to eliminate the inaccurate perceptions (myths) of the common fan rergarding the rules.
When we start interjecting other governing bodies' rules, it does nothing but confuse people. If/when the change happens, it happens..... then we'll discuss it and educate the masses.
We've all been in too many rule interpretation meetings (both local and state) that goes off the rails when this stuff starts being interjected.... Heck, take a peek at all the Facebook Officiating groups and look at all the discussions go off the rails when people start throwing what they think is a rule into the discussions.
Not allowing it here, so let's keep on track.
Situation: Batter in the box and the ump calls the count as 2-1. Pitch is made and batter takes it. Batter regroups and the coach yells from the dugout, that was strike 3. The ump then looks at the field ump who confirms that it should be strike 3 so the HP ump calls the batter out and the inning over. While they were correct that it was strike 3, I argued that the better would have had an entirely different approach at the plate if he heard the count was 2-2 but the HP ump clearly called 2-1. How should that have been handled? Appreciate the info
AllSports12
Moderator
Wow, an unfortunate series of events here.... Lots of blame to place.....
-The Plate Umpire has the wrong count
-The Batter has the wrong count
-The Batting Team's coaching staff has the wrong count
-The Base Umpire has the correct count, but either is not paying attention when his partner announces the wrong count or just ignores it.
I'm absolving the Defensive Team in this because they may have known and understood what the result would be if a strike occurred. Then again, they might have just as ignorant of what was going on as everyone else.
As unfair as it seems, the final ruling is the correct ruling.
The umpires should be prepared to take some criticism here as long as it does not become prolonged, personal, or profane.
thePITman
Well-known member
I have a question about balks (everyone’s favorite topic). When a pitcher is in the stretch, he must come set before delivering to home. But what about when moving to first? (assuming that he has started to become set)
If a pitcher is getting his sign and lifts his front leg to get set, and the runner takes off at that moment, does the pitcher have to first come set (and pause) before stepping off? Or can he quickly plant his front foot and then step off with his back foot in one motion?
A former college pitcher I know insists that the pitcher must become set before stepping off, so we teach our pitchers how to avoid committing the balk (and our runners how to potentially take advantage). However, in my JV game yesterday, when this situation occurred with our team batting, the umpire didn't call a balk. When I questioned it, the opposing head coach — who was nearby — firmly stated that the pitcher only needs to pause before going home, not necessarily before stepping off. After the inning, I was feeling insecure about my understanding of the rule, so I asked a parent of ours who also pitched in college, and he agreed with the opposing coach that one continuous motion to step off is legal.
So, what is the official rule? And does it change whether the pitcher steps off or moves to first without stepping off? Thank you!
If a pitcher is getting his sign and lifts his front leg to get set, and the runner takes off at that moment, does the pitcher have to first come set (and pause) before stepping off? Or can he quickly plant his front foot and then step off with his back foot in one motion?
A former college pitcher I know insists that the pitcher must become set before stepping off, so we teach our pitchers how to avoid committing the balk (and our runners how to potentially take advantage). However, in my JV game yesterday, when this situation occurred with our team batting, the umpire didn't call a balk. When I questioned it, the opposing head coach — who was nearby — firmly stated that the pitcher only needs to pause before going home, not necessarily before stepping off. After the inning, I was feeling insecure about my understanding of the rule, so I asked a parent of ours who also pitched in college, and he agreed with the opposing coach that one continuous motion to step off is legal.
So, what is the official rule? And does it change whether the pitcher steps off or moves to first without stepping off? Thank you!
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AllSports12
Moderator
Great question.
The rule governing this play is largely misunderstood by coaches, players, and fans. (umpires as well
) This rule is not exclusive to plays at the plate. It applies to all bases and all fielders.Those players who are not in possession of the ball must give the runner "access to the base". That access does not have to be the most desirable and/or of the most advantageous to the runner. The defensive player is not excused for denying that access if the throw takes him/her into the path of the runner before he/she possesses the ball.
Whether or not access has been given to the runner is solely up to the umpire.
The pitcher does not have to come set and pause, in a complete and discernible stop, if he is doing anything except pitching. So he can step off, attempt a feint to a base, etc. without stopping. He must only come to a complete and discernible stop with pause when he is going to deliver a pitch. Not doing so as one of the most common reasons we call a balk.
In the situation you describe where he is lifting his non-pivot foot to come set after getting a sign, he would not have to come completely set to then step off to attempt to go after a runner legally. However, physicality does rule here, and there are certain ways where he couldn’t do anything but continue to come to a stop or a set position before doing anything depending on where his body is because it’s not possible physically. I say this because I would have a hard time seeing what you’re describing. However if a pitcher is coming set by lifting the leg of his non-pivot foot to come set, he could quickly come set then step off and then go without any issue. Stopping his coming set motion to put his foot down and then attempting to step off, I would have to see that in order to truly see what you’re saying. I also think many pitchers are so mechanically driven these days that it would be hard for them to alter that process and put their foot down, maybe halfway towards coming set. However, with the speed of things it’s possible that could happen.
But in short, no pause is needed or complete stop when attempting anything that’s not a pitch that’s otherwise legal. A positive and discernible stop completely is required when you are going to deliver a pitch.
Thank you!
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
So what should the base Umpire have done assuming he was paying attention?
Signal the partner repeatedly to get it right, and if not, call time and get it right before next pitch.
AllSports12
Moderator
There are "suggestions" such as odd number pitches starting 3, 5, 7, 9...... (that's what I was taught many, many years ago)
For me, it's overbearing to announce on every pitch.
Add to that anytime we restart after a stoppage for a defensive or offensive conference, substitution during an at bat, question/discussion, injury, long foul ball, etc regardless of count I tend to give it.
thePITman
Well-known member
Thank you. Are you able to cite somewhere in the rulebook (or maybe this is in the case book)? Also, is there a chance this is different in college, and my head coach was thinking of a different rule?
AllSports12
Moderator
The rule book only lists the acts (infractions) that are illegal. (Rule 6-2..... Articles 1-5) If not listed as illegal, then they are legal. (we'd have a rule book looking like the tax code if we went down that route
)With regards to the examply you cite...... The rule is the same under NCAA rules.
thePITman
Well-known member
Thank you for the reference. A follow-up question: Below is a snippet from Rule 6-1 (above 6-2 that you referenced). If I understand @umpire16 correctly, both the yellow- and green-highlighted text are only required if the pitcher is going to deliver a pitch. But I do not see anywhere in the rulebook where it says that. I'm probably reading it incorrectly, but it seems to me that it is only describing "for the set position," not "requirements to pitch the ball." Again, I trust you guys, and I'm sure you guys are correct, but can you please help me find the wording that I'm missing? Or is one of those that is up to interpretation? Thank you.The rule book only lists the acts (infractions) that are illegal. (Rule 6-2..... Articles 1-5) If not listed as illegal, then they are legal. (we'd have a rule book looking like the tax code if we went down that route
With regards to the examply you cite...... The rule is the same under NCAA rules.
AllSports12
Moderator
You have to include the sentence prior to what you highlighted……
“Before starting his delivery"
Since he did not start his delivery, he does not need to pause.
What he said.
Rush Limbaugh
Well-known member
Interesting play happened to me and wondering what everyone thoughts are…
No outs, no runners… shallow fly ball hit to center field.
I was the PU and having worked this field before I know there is a dip from the turf infield to the grass out field which makes trouble balls really hard to see.
I bust my butt to get out there to see this play ( I end up behind the pitchers mound ) and the CF dives to make the catch and I’m looking at his glove and see nothing. I never see the ball hit the ground either. The CF pops up and throws the ball in. I talk to my partner and he’s got nothing. After taking about it with my partner, I decided to act as if the ball was not caught and the batter stayed at first.
Neither coach came out… the defensive team coach only said thank you for checking with my partner.
Any other way this could have been handled mechanically? Is what I did what you would have done?
No outs, no runners… shallow fly ball hit to center field.
I was the PU and having worked this field before I know there is a dip from the turf infield to the grass out field which makes trouble balls really hard to see.
I bust my butt to get out there to see this play ( I end up behind the pitchers mound ) and the CF dives to make the catch and I’m looking at his glove and see nothing. I never see the ball hit the ground either. The CF pops up and throws the ball in. I talk to my partner and he’s got nothing. After taking about it with my partner, I decided to act as if the ball was not caught and the batter stayed at first.
Neither coach came out… the defensive team coach only said thank you for checking with my partner.
Any other way this could have been handled mechanically? Is what I did what you would have done?
AllSports12
Moderator
As far as the live decision, you did what you could.
Now, if I have knowledge about potential trouble spots like this at a facility I'm having my partner go out on every trouble ball from Center Field to the Right Field foul line with nobody on base. That gives him/her an angle that will help. I'm watching/taking the runner while my partner is in the outfield.
Two person mechanics already have plenty of holes, sometimes we just have to improvise.
Maninpaint3408
Member
the 2017 OHSAA Pitch count Rule interpretation that set the current pitch count limit to 125 and the days of rest intervals when released, also had a clause about double headers, in 2017 it specifically stated that if a pitcher threw 30 or less in Game 1, they could throw their other 95 pitches in Game 2 and then take 3 days off from pitching, however if they threw 31 pitches, were then not allowed to pitch in game 2 and would follow the mandatory 1 day rest.
Every year since then, including the 2025 Pitch Rule card, it does not have that specificity mentioned. So, has it been capped to just 125 pitches in a day and can be split between both games in a double header if a coach chose to, or is it still 30 pitches for Game 1 in order to have the other 90 for Game 2?
Thank you in advance!
Every year since then, including the 2025 Pitch Rule card, it does not have that specificity mentioned. So, has it been capped to just 125 pitches in a day and can be split between both games in a double header if a coach chose to, or is it still 30 pitches for Game 1 in order to have the other 90 for Game 2?
Thank you in advance!
AllSports12
Moderator
The clause pertaining to doubleheaders was removed prior to the 2019 season.
The pitch threshold is 125 in a day.
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
Advanced mechanic (kind of). First, kudos for hustling, many don’t or can’t, so already bonus points for getting as close as you could.
That said, many people run TO the play. If f8 is coming straight in and diving at you, running closer to him doesn’t help much. I’d run at the shortstop (or his original position anyways) or towards f4, whichever side will give me a look into f8s glove.
If f8 is right handed, his glove is on his left side, so I’m running towards SS. If f8 is left handed , his open glove will face f4, so I’m running that side.
A trap is much more noticeable from beside the play than close to and directly in line with it.
To AS12 point, even if BU can’t get a lot of distance on it, being to side will give much better look.
AllSports12
Moderator
Angle over distance, especially when distance is still involved after you move.