Ask The Ref?

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bb9

Active member
TriangleMan said:
Last night in the Canton CC-Mogadore game, I nearly experienced a 'grand-slam' of incorrect rules knowledge on one play.

Mogadore's ball, 4th and 9 at the CC 11. Pass into the end zone. DPI called.

I whispered to my buddy "wait for it". From behind me I hear...

Fan1: "That was uncatchable!!!"
Fan2: "[expletive], automatic first down."
Fan3 (to Fan2): "There are no automatic first downs in high school."

Would've been a grand-slam if someone had said "They get the ball at the one."

This is the primary reason I enjoy this thread. Correct knowledge of the rules is a great asset.
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I really struggle to watch games from the stands. It's hard not to turn around and say something.
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Yappi said:
In the LSU/Alabama game, offensive player fumbled the ball near the sideline. Defensive player was scooping up the ball when the offensive player knocked it loose (offensive player was laying out of bounds from the waist down). Defense recovered and was awarded the ball.

Officials overturned the call and gave it to the offensive team where the player laying out of bounds touched it. Said ball was dead when it was touched by player out of bounds. Is this the same call in HS?

An extension of this call, if a defender has both feet out of bounds and tips a pass before a receiver catches it, would that also be a dead ball?
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A loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or game official that is out of bounds.

Now, if a player intentionally goes out of bounds and Influence the play or intentionally touch the ball, that player is guilty of illegal participation.

in both it your situations, it’s simply a ball out of bounds by rule
 
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Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
I think this has been addressed before in this thread, but I cannot find exactly where. Also it never hurts to have a refresher:

P punts the ball at R's 35 yd. line.
P1 pops up the punt, and it hits the ground at R's 34 yd. line.
Ball bounces backward where P1 catches it at R's 37 yd. line.
Officials blow the play dead as soon as P1 caught it.

Correct call, or would P1 have had the opportunity to advance the kick since he recovered behind the neutral zone? Incidentally, I did not see anyone on the sideline yelling at P1 to run with the ball after he caught it. It looked like P1 had a clear path down the middle of the field to at least get the 1st down.
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Mr. Slippery said:
I think this has been addressed before in this thread, but I cannot find exactly where. Also it never hurts to have a refresher:

P punts the ball at R's 35 yd. line.
P1 pops up the punt, and it hits the ground at R's 34 yd. line.
Ball bounces backward where P1 catches it at R's 37 yd. line.
Officials blow the play dead as soon as P1 caught it.

Correct call, or would P1 have had the opportunity to advance the kick since he recovered behind the neutral zone? Incidentally, I did not see anyone on the sideline yelling at P1 to run with the ball after he caught it. It looked like P1 had a clear path down the middle of the field to at least get the 1st down.
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Inadvertent whistle.

K will undoubtedly choose the option of replaying the down rather than take the result of the play which was the dead ball spot after this untouched kick resulting in 1st and 10 for R at their own 37.
 
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Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
AllSports12 said:
Inadvertent whistle.

K will undoubtedly choose the option of replaying the down rather than take the result of the play which was the dead ball spot after this untouched kick resulting in 1st and 10 for R at their own 37.
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I agree that K would undoubtedly make that choice. However, the end result was that the receiving team's offense took the field at the 37, and the game continued. Everyone acted as if that was the proper course of action.
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Mr. Slippery said:
I agree that K would undoubtedly make that choice. However, the end result was that the receiving team's offense took the field at the 37, and the game continued. Everyone acted as if that was the proper course of action.
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An IW is bad...

Misapplying the rule to remedy the IW is worse.
 
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CadenMFB

New member
Rules on illegal contact and PI before ball is thrown?

Can a defender de-cleat/Jam a receiver before the ball is thrown under 5 yards anywhere on the field?

Ex. Receiver runs a vertical route but defender knocks him down at or before 5 yards.
Ex. Receiver runs an under route but LB knocks him down under 5 yards.

Does the 5 yards matter and can defenders completely de-cleat receivers or is that targeting? Thanks!
 
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Altor

Well-known member
Defensive pass interference restrictions do not begin until the pass is thrown. And there is no "5-yard chuck" zone in NFHS like there is in the NFL.

That said, 9-2-3-d says a defensive player shall not contact an eligible receiver who is no longer a potential blocker. It's illegal use of hands and a 10 yard penalty.
 
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maven

Member
CadenMFB said:
Rules on illegal contact and PI before ball is thrown?

Can a defender de-cleat/Jam a receiver before the ball is thrown under 5 yards anywhere on the field?

Ex. Receiver runs a vertical route but defender knocks him down at or before 5 yards.
Ex. Receiver runs an under route but LB knocks him down under 5 yards.

Does the 5 yards matter and can defenders completely de-cleat receivers or is that targeting? Thanks!
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HS does not have the NFL illegal contact foul, so there's no 5-yard limit. But, as Altor says, it's a foul to contact an eligible receiver who is no longer a potential blocker. We interpret that as saying: if the receiver is even with or beyond the defender, significant (more than just hands) contact is a foul.

So, in your first play, if the receiver is in front of the defender, that's nothing; if he's going around and getting past when the contact occurs, it's a foul. In your second play, as I'm envisioning this, the receiver is running past and in front of the LB, who initiates the contact as the receiver pulls even with him—and that's a foul.

As for "de-cleating": that's not a rules term. Big hits are sometimes legal, sometimes targeting (if the contact is above the shoulders), and sometimes illegal blindside blocks.
 
Brooksie

Brooksie

Well-known member
This is one that has had me scratching my head for years. If it has been addressed earlier, I apologize - as I don't have the gumption to leaf through 100 pages of this thread.

It has to do with dead ball personal fouls.

Here is a typical situation. Team A is on offense and runs a play that is going to net a first down. One of the defensive players, going full speed already, cannot pull up in time and they blast the ball carrier near the sidelines. Offensive players don't like this - and they rough up the defender out of bounds after the whistles have blown ending the previous play..

Flags come out - dead ball, personal foul on the offense.

How this is always enforced is the first down is awarded, then ball is moved back 15 yards, then the offense returns to play with a first and ten.

My question is - if it is a dead ball foul, why is it not 1st and 25? It would be that way if it happened on second or third down. Doesn't dead ball mean the previous play counts?

Little help please.......
 
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Altor

Well-known member
This stems from when a new series is awarded in 5-2 and when the line-to-gain is established according to 2-26-5. The new series is awarded at the end of the down (not withstanding any live ball fouls that need penalized). The line-to-gain is not established until the ready-to-play signal. When that line-to-gain is established, it is 10 yards beyond the spot of the ball (with the lone exception if that line is in the end zone). So, barring a penalty after that ready-for-play, it is always 1st-and-10 (or 1st-and-Goal).
 
Brooksie

Brooksie

Well-known member
Thank you for your answer - and I see how it is justified by rule. It's just that the rule doesn't make sense to me, not real consistent.
 
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chs1971

Well-known member
KCI, but the punt was recovered, followed by BIB on the return.

Offsetting?

R would have to accept the KCI penalty, correct?
 
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Captain_Cavman

Captain_Cavman

Well-known member
AllSports12 said:
Now, if a player intentionally goes out of bounds and Influence the play or intentionally touch the ball, that player is guilty of illegal participation.
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Didn't this happen during the D1 final on a kickoff?

Springfield kicked offed to EDs and the receiver seemed to be hoping the ball would go out of bounds for a penalty. That didn't happen, so he stepped out of bounds and grabbed the ball. Officials ruled it a kick out of bounds and EDs started at their 35.

Was this a mistaken call?
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Captain_Cavman said:
Didn't this happen during the D1 final on a kickoff?

Springfield kicked offed to EDs and the receiver seemed to be hoping the ball would go out of bounds for a penalty. That didn't happen, so he stepped out of bounds and grabbed the ball. Officials ruled it a kick out of bounds and EDs started at their 35.

Was this a mistaken call?
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If the official judged that the player intentionally went out of bounds and touched the ball then the player would be guilty of illegal participation …. R would be penalized 15 yards from the spot of the foul, 1st and 10. previous spot and we would re-kick the ball. (*** EDIT *** -- nice grab by @chs1971 to point out the mistake)

if it wasn’t judged intentional, then K has fouled by kicking the ball out of bounds…. R then gets to choose the enforcement options afforded to them by rule, one of them being placing the ball at the 35yd line
 
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chs1971

Well-known member
AllSports12 said:
If the official judged that the player intentionally went out of bounds and touched the ball then the player would be guilty of illegal participation …. R would be penalized 15 yards from the spot of the foul, 1st and 10.

if it wasn’t judged intentional, then K has fouled by kicking the ball out of bounds…. R then gets to choose the enforcement options afforded to them by rule, one of them being placing the ball at the 35yd line
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Not a loose ball play and penalized from the previous spot?
 
Captain_Cavman

Captain_Cavman

Well-known member
AllSports12 said:
If the official judged that the player intentionally went out of bounds and touched the ball then the player would be guilty of illegal participation …. R would be penalized 15 yards from the spot of the foul, 1st and 10.

if it wasn’t judged intentional, then K has fouled by kicking the ball out of bounds…. R then gets to choose the enforcement options afforded to them by rule, one of them being placing the ball at the 35yd line
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The "intentional" judgement tends to be the one that's usually controversial with fans. 😉
 
TriangleMan

TriangleMan

Well-known member
AllSports12 said:
If the official judged that the player intentionally went out of bounds and touched the ball then the player would be guilty of illegal participation …. R would be penalized 15 yards from the spot of the foul, 1st and 10.

if it wasn’t judged intentional, then K has fouled by kicking the ball out of bounds…. R then gets to choose the enforcement options afforded to them by rule, one of them being placing the ball at the 35yd line
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Same situation but while inbounds R kicks the ball OB. Where is the ball to be spotted?
 
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serpico

Well-known member
Receiver makes a catch on the sideline and gets the bottom front of one foot inbounds before lifting it up. Had the heel come down it would have landed on the line. Maybe not enough info, but is there a rule that addresses this like in the NFL?
 
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maven

Member
serpico said:
Receiver makes a catch on the sideline and gets the bottom front of one foot inbounds before lifting it up. Had the heel come down it would have landed on the line. Maybe not enough info, but is there a rule that addresses this like in the NFL?
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No. If all that touches is a toe before he steps again (or the foot otherwise moves off the spot), then it's a catch.

If the toe lands first but the heel lands out of bounds as he lands in a step, that's incomplete.

AFAIK, all codes interpret this the same way (though NFL requires 2 feet inbounds).
 
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