A Simple Solution To The Competitive Balance Issue
- Thread starter Snowbelt Man
- Start date
And in 8-12 years, Divisions 4-7 would be unwatchable. The 15% moving down will still be uncompetitive.
And what exactly are we averaging?
Oil Filter
Well-known member
Name the cheaters.
I think he’s saying the top 15% of every division are cheaters. Whatever he thinks that means.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
You're giving him too much credit; he doesn't know what he's saying.
Math time: there are ~700 football-playing OHSAA member schools. He says 2 divisions worth (about 200) of them are cheaters. Shouldn't be hard to name half of them, should it? And yet, he cowers. Quelle surprise.
Well, by his own math, if 15% of all divisions are the cheaters, that’s only 100 teams. So filling 2 divisions with all the cheaters seems unlikely.
Revamp the computer points and use that to determine divisions regardless of size A good computer model would balance competition. 7 divisions of 64 teams is 448 teams. If Glenville can schedule and beat D1 or 2 teams they can earn their way into D1. ML can earn their way to a higher division. 1 to 3 win teams won't make the playoffs. Basketball is going to a computer seeding model although divisions based on enrollment remain.
That is not accurate, the count towards the new school's total enrolment of students, but the CB number for each school for each sport is based on the actual kids on the roster. Thus why schools have a different CB number for football them they would for basketball
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
One way to solve the CB issue is to make it simpler. If a kid played for one school and then another, that should count as 1 CB tally. Forget about why, how, when, forget about everything except the fact that the kid is playing at a different school. Forget about addresses, or how they ended up in a particular school district, if they play for a new school, that school gets dinged with a CB tally.
This makes too much sense. I would go a step farther 1 CB transfer before Frosh or Soph season, 2 for Juniors, and 3 for seniors.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
Even simpler: dump CB entirely. A kid is a kid is a kid.
In the greater scheme of things, school choice is not about sports, even though some will assuredly use it to advantage themselves. OTOH, add up all the CB numbers for every school. We're talking thousands of kids here. This is not an uncommon thing, and one cannot argue that all (or even most) of the kids who count towards a CB number are in any way providing a significant competitive advantage to the school they attend.
In the greater scheme of things, school choice is not about sports, even though some will assuredly use it to advantage themselves. OTOH, add up all the CB numbers for every school. We're talking thousands of kids here. This is not an uncommon thing, and one cannot argue that all (or even most) of the kids who count towards a CB number are in any way providing a significant competitive advantage to the school they attend.
Sykotyk
Well-known member
Then why are we counting kids that aren't playing football? What do they have to do with the sports teams? The only reason enrollment was used was the general idea that similarly sized schools could field similarly competitive teams from the same sample size.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
Huh? Don't follow this at all. The point is the size of the talent pool; the potential participants. If you want to make it roster size, that puts Marion Local in D1.
IOW, count the number of kids who could play for a school. How they got there doesn't matter.
Sykotyk
Well-known member
If you can choose who attends your school, then your talent pool is much bigger than the kids in the halls. Public schools, short of expulsions, don't have much of a choice in who does, or doesn't attend their school.
simkon
Well-known member
Perfect Marion Local can get slaughtered and shut all those idiots up that are delusional and think Marion Local and the MAC teams would be a state title contender in D-I, D-II or D-III or even D-IV as long as Glenville is there.
simkon
Well-known member
Genius fool proof idea, public schools should expell all the boys who can't play sports to get in a lower division to win state more easily.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
Who can choose? Public schools can't. That's 90% of the football-playing schools in the state.
James x2
Well-known member
I grew up in Collinwood and Euclid. I worked around the corner from Ginn Academy for 28 years. Long before there was a Ginn Academy. I never stated squat about why he opened up his school. I have not said anything. But I'm chiming in now because this situation is both really good in some ways and really fishy in others. Loopholes seem to have been exploited LEAGALY WITHIN THE RULES BUT MAYBE NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF THOSE SAID RULES! I don't just talk shyte. Here is a thought: Why can't Ginn be a great guy who helps kids stay off the street AND be the known recruiter of local talent? I have stated on this site more than once that Rotsky is the White Ted Ginn. It is what it is. A competitive balance #of 0 is a joke and a loophole that needs closed now. Congrats on the 2x Champs. Now get the hell up to d-2 with Hoban , Massillon, TCC, and the rest of them. Funny thing is then I could really get behind the Tarblooders like I used to back in the day.
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I love following Marion Local's success because it goes against everything that "competitive balance" stands for. Pound for pound, the most dominant football program ever in Ohio built a system to develop their own kids. Now, the "winners" are the D7 schools with a "competitve balance" figure high enough to push them into D6 with Kirtland, one of Ohio's other powerhouses that built a system with their own kids.
I graduated from Warren G. Harding in 2002 and I STG that I never knew that "public vs. private" was a thing until I started posting on sites like this in 2003. Now, as a Harding student during that time especially, I understand the dynamic of "if you build, they will come." I've seen Cincinnati Moeller beat us 42-0 in 2000 only to get their worst loss ever in Warren the next year (55-0). Win or lose, I always wanted to see my friends go up against the best out there and whenever they lost, the city picked their spirits back up. Whether you were the athlete or a fan (I was in the marching band), that's how the city of Warren raised us to think. Seeing the OHSAA spearhead a movement to sissify the game bacause of where kids are from is saddening. We already have too many divisions as is.
I understand how Harding, Ursuline, & Mooney were preferred destinations over Rayen, Woodrow Wilson, Chaney (though they were actually pretty good back them), etc. It's not hard to figure out why Iggy, Eds, & Benedictine are favored over Senate League schools, why parents would rather send their kids to Hoban/SVSM over an ACS, why Alter is preferred in the Dayton area, etc. Certain schools, both public & private, are going to benefit from the mentality &/or stereotypes of their area and while the OHSAA is trying to regulate that, the smallest schools in Ohio are being "punished" because they have no answer for the communities that developed the perfect formula to develop their youth.
The state could learn a lot from both Marion Local & Kirtland.
I graduated from Warren G. Harding in 2002 and I STG that I never knew that "public vs. private" was a thing until I started posting on sites like this in 2003. Now, as a Harding student during that time especially, I understand the dynamic of "if you build, they will come." I've seen Cincinnati Moeller beat us 42-0 in 2000 only to get their worst loss ever in Warren the next year (55-0). Win or lose, I always wanted to see my friends go up against the best out there and whenever they lost, the city picked their spirits back up. Whether you were the athlete or a fan (I was in the marching band), that's how the city of Warren raised us to think. Seeing the OHSAA spearhead a movement to sissify the game bacause of where kids are from is saddening. We already have too many divisions as is.
I understand how Harding, Ursuline, & Mooney were preferred destinations over Rayen, Woodrow Wilson, Chaney (though they were actually pretty good back them), etc. It's not hard to figure out why Iggy, Eds, & Benedictine are favored over Senate League schools, why parents would rather send their kids to Hoban/SVSM over an ACS, why Alter is preferred in the Dayton area, etc. Certain schools, both public & private, are going to benefit from the mentality &/or stereotypes of their area and while the OHSAA is trying to regulate that, the smallest schools in Ohio are being "punished" because they have no answer for the communities that developed the perfect formula to develop their youth.
The state could learn a lot from both Marion Local & Kirtland.
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
Farrell was infamous for bringing in kids from the Oh, Pa, Wv tri state area. They blatantly recruited great BB players and dated anyone to question it.
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
The fundamental problem with moving teams down (bottom 15% was one example) is that eventually, the lower divisions (6 and 7) will have had their current top teams moved up and the teams that went 0-10 and 1-9 moved down into it. Now the d6 and d7 state championships are not worthy of anything, it’s teams that are currently 6-4 or 7-3 in d7 vs teams that were 1-9 in d6.
the point of the championships is supposed to go to good teams, separated by enrollment since theoretically they can’t field as many players, but they’re still good. The d6/d7 championships would be awful.
I could get on board with moving teams up a MAX of one division over their enrollment based division if they win consecutive state titles but that would be not many teams and not very often.
and on a side note, do the players even care? Or is it just the parents? I wrestled at stow high school. 5 mins away was Walsh, the #1 team in the country at the time. In my weight class was Jeff Knupp, #1 in nation at 189. If I moved up a class to avoid him, I’d run into Victor Sveda, the country’s #1 in 215.
not once did I consider or look up where they came from, it never crossed my mind it “wasnt fair” that I had no chance at a state title. And my life is pretty okay. I coached and officiated two sports despite never being a state champ in either. I know wrestling is an individual sport rather than team sport but my point remains, I sincerely believe this is way blown out of proportion. Vast majority of kids are in sports for the life lessons, competition; friends, etc. if they’re truly great at the sport, they’ll get their opportunity in college regardless of championships and divisions.
the point of the championships is supposed to go to good teams, separated by enrollment since theoretically they can’t field as many players, but they’re still good. The d6/d7 championships would be awful.
I could get on board with moving teams up a MAX of one division over their enrollment based division if they win consecutive state titles but that would be not many teams and not very often.
and on a side note, do the players even care? Or is it just the parents? I wrestled at stow high school. 5 mins away was Walsh, the #1 team in the country at the time. In my weight class was Jeff Knupp, #1 in nation at 189. If I moved up a class to avoid him, I’d run into Victor Sveda, the country’s #1 in 215.
not once did I consider or look up where they came from, it never crossed my mind it “wasnt fair” that I had no chance at a state title. And my life is pretty okay. I coached and officiated two sports despite never being a state champ in either. I know wrestling is an individual sport rather than team sport but my point remains, I sincerely believe this is way blown out of proportion. Vast majority of kids are in sports for the life lessons, competition; friends, etc. if they’re truly great at the sport, they’ll get their opportunity in college regardless of championships and divisions.
Choose is a little bit a misnomer here. It's not a draft. Private schools have to get kids interested to apply, get accepted and then enroll. It's ultimately the kids and parents who do the choosing regardless of public or private.
Who cares if the bottom 2 divisions suck. The whole point is to create a level playing field to place similar type schools together since the enrollment numbers thing alone does not work anymore on determining competitiveness since only about 5% of schools have a snowballs chance of winning state anyway. Let bad teams play each other and the Cheaters who recruit like (All football factory private schools like St Eds and Toledo central catholic and open enrollment publics who steal other programs kids like Massillon and Glenville). Let them play each other and and have some real competition. everyone will know the top 2 divisions are the elite and call them that to separate from bottom 5 ones. Problem solved without bs enrollment numbers .
So you think Glenville and Toledo Central cant play in d-1 . Come one...give me a break here. Kirtland played a really close game against the d-2 regional finalist Green who got beat by state champ Massillon. Kirtland could handle d-4 or 3 if no real superpower cheater like Glenville or Toledo Central.
Stirred not Shaken
Well-known member
Again do away with the CB it solved nothing. As far as letting teams voluntarily moving up, I think some schools would do be up that.
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
My Father took me up there a couple times in the 70’s to watch them play. Ran teams out of the gymFun with typos.
What? We did NOT recruit that 6'8 forward from Akron.
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
Get accepted? What’s the minimum criteria? 4.5 forty (not gpa), 350lb bench, pass for 2500, run for 1000 at previous school and pending D1 P5 offers
None of these schools want to take on kids that are going to struggle with academic (or behavioral) eligibility issues.Get accepted? What’s the minimum criteria? 4.5 forty (not gpa), 350lb bench, pass for 2500, run for 1000 at previous school and pending D1 P5 offers