A Simple Solution To The Competitive Balance Issue

TigerPaw said:
Would not impact the majority of D1's who are D1's no matter what their CB score is. But to your point it would be interesting to see if anyone in D2 or below would want to do that. I personally don't think anyone would.
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Exactly. But at least it would lessen the load on 60+ schools. From looking at the OHSAA numbers, only 4 schools changed between DI and DII due to CB.
 
Ill always laugh at these convos. The first time I heard someome bitch about whats "fair" was Revere bball coach for running into St. Eds two years in a row while he had the only future NBA player on the court lmao just go play man
 
MassillonK1D330 said:
Not at all but they won't complain about it they would just go play.
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If they were undefeated and kept getting railed in a state semi-final or final and never smelled a chip because of some crazy loophole they would complain. There is a limit to what's reasonable, and the "Spirit of the rule" as it was intended is not in play here. FWIW that would not be TCC in this instance. They have a CB # of more than 0.
 
Oil Filter said:
Who's going to judge what constitutes a "legitimate" transfer? Who's going to have the right and authority to determine intent and rule on the propriety thereof?


Why? They can pick and choose based on who has the better vocal music program or who has the better debate team. Why not sports?


Would you tell a kid that he can't be on Student Council because he transferred? That he can't be in the spring musical?
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Spring musical and football? No exactly an apples to apples analogy.
 
Oil Filter said:
Both are extra-curricular activities. Do you really think participation should be restricted to those who live in right place or attended an approved school last year?
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I acknowledge that this is a different era. But I appreciate the days when transferring was not a “thing” we had a kid transfer from Steubenville Catholic back in my day and they did not let him play. It was huge noise back then but that was the rule. There is something about kids playing where they grew up. Today is a different time and it is what it is.
 
I think that most athletic transfers are misguided. I also think that while that may be my opinion, I have neither the right nor the authority to restrict or limit a family's decision to do so. Nor would I support an assertion by anyone else that they do.

ODE used to publish the open enrollment numbers for each district (maybe they still do). At the time, Massillon had hundreds of open enrollment students in the district. It is inarguable that the overwhelming majority are not there for sports. How do we say that 90% of them are to be accorded privileges and opportunities that are denied to a targeted 10%? How do we say that these select few may not have the full experience of their high school years solely because of where they live? Try that in a different environment, they call it red-lining and take you to court.
 
SIMPLE SOLUTION.
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Oil Filter said:
How do we say that 90% of them are to be accorded privileges and opportunities that are denied to a targeted 10%?
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All would be afforded the same privileges, no? And all would be subject to the OHSAA rules if they play an OHSAA-sanctioned sport. And they know this coming in.
 
serpico said:
All would be afforded the same privileges, no? And all would be subject to the OHSAA rules if they play an OHSAA-sanctioned sport. And they know this coming in.
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Right. And a black man who wanted to eat at Woolworth's should know he had to go to the colored counter. There was a sign on the door; he knew it coming in.
 
Right now. It feels like the way that the playoffs are set in Ohio is like if Alabama were to bump down to a D3 college bracket just because of their enrollment. Wouldn't you want to see TCC and Glenville play each other in the playoffs? Add St. Ed's and Hoban to that playoff bracket as well. It is unfortunate to see Glenville, Kirtland, and TCC in the brackets that they are in and it would be incredible to watch those types of games where the competitive balance is relatively equal. It's not punishment for success. If you want to be the best, you have to play the best.
 
Bball216 said:
How many schools lift 350+ days a year ?
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I would agree its not many. Some school districts restrict activities on Sundays or Wednesday nights so that right there gets you under 300 days. Also, there is generally some benefit to actually letting the kids have a break every once in a while to be kids. I would also say that most teams don't lift on game days. So if Kirtland is actually lifting 7 days a week year round, congrats to them, but I still don't think that's healthy in the long run.
 
Bball216 said:
Just because you have a personal ax to grind with schools like TCC and Glenville - why punish small schools like the MAC, Kirtland,Mogadore,South Range,etc. That is not fair to them. So their reward for working hard and developing into good players is to play schools twice their size ? Is that fair. People work hard to build a program and you want to reward the mediocre teams. Not happy with your results - get better. Do something different. That is the issue nowadays. People rather lower the bar and make it easier then to raise themselves up. There is a reason the small schools I mentioned above are successful and it's not recruiting or cheating. I'm sure if you dive into those teams you will see multiple things they do that your schools program does not.
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I respect what you are saying, and while for some people this is likely accurate, I do feel a lot of people just want all teams to start from the same playing field.

For example, if 10 guys have a friendly bet over who can kill the most deer this season. 9 go out with their shotguns, some have nicer guns or spend more time practicing, but they all have shotguns. But the 10th guy flies in a B-52 and just bombs the crap out of the woods and wins. No amount of practice or having a better gun is going to overcome the guy who uses the B-52.
 
Bball216 said:
All due respect Snowbelt Man - there is no such thing as a "Simple Solution " to Competitive Balance.
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I completely agree with this statement. Unfortunately, CB only hurts the smaller schools and not all numbers are created equal. Are we really believing that a 4th string kid going to a small school should be worth the same amount as a stud QB? D1 Schools can bring whoever they want in with no impact whereas a small school that brings in that 4th stringer is now up a division.
 
Snowbelt Man said:
Toledo Central Catholic.
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Without looking at the school enrollment, and purely just thinking CB, I was floored to see the 2022 DII State Championship Team DROP to DIII. That would be like the Denver Nuggets dropping to the G League or the Chiefs dropping to the USFL. What, exactly, do you think is going to happen? The system is definitely broken.
 
invader03 said:
Simple solution....top 15% of teams in division go up every year and the bottom 15% go down. It gets all the open enrollment and private who both cheat and recruit in the same divisions so they can beat each other brains in while others who don't get to fight it out against similar competition. Easiest way that cant be manipulated like enrollment numbers. after 4 years, real competitive balance.
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The schedules for next year are pretty much already complete. So you might move, but you'd still play the same schedule, so it really doesn't make much sense. For starters, we could just say, if you win the state championship, how about not moving them down a division the next year?
Private schools should have their own Division - or at least their own Region.
 
The complainers about promotion and demotion and punishing winners is a straw man argument. So let me get this straight. Almost all the real state contenders in d-4 and above cheat and recruit their players whether they are open enrollment of private schools. They have all star teams from around their counties and basically the same 10% of schools fight it out for a state championship every year. So the rest of the 90% get to get their brains bashed in if they qualify for the playoffs and play the all star teams. So to spare the lower divisions who cheat less, just do promotion and demotion in top 4 divisions. Problem solved. top 15% go up and and down every year based on a 4 year average of wins. Let all the cheaters fight it out in top 2 divisions.
 
invader03 said:
The complainers about promotion and demotion and punishing winners is a straw man argument. So let me get this straight. Almost all the real state contenders in d-4 and above cheat and recruit their players whether they are open enrollment of private schools. They have all star teams from around their counties and basically the same 10% of schools fight it out for a state championship every year. So the rest of the 90% get to get their brains bashed in if they qualify for the playoffs and play the all star teams. So to spare the lower divisions who cheat less, just do promotion and demotion in top 4 divisions. Problem solved. top 15% go up and and down every year based on a 4 year average of wins. Let all the cheaters fight it out in top 2 divisions.
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I don't think you understand how this would actually play out in reality.
 
1st of all, it is stupid that the OSHAA does not allow teams to voluntarily move up on their own. If for example, a D4 school wants to move up to D3 or D2 for whatever reason, why is the OSHAA stopping them? I cannot even begin to talk about how stupid that is. No team is going to move up if they do not believe they can compete at that level for the 2-year cycle.

Secondly, to my understanding, CB was implemented to prevent a school that had no boundaries in big metropolis areas from competing against small town/rural town schools. Think Hoban vs Ironton. There are real and legitimate reasons for this. In this thread Worm said there should be no CB, just get better. Worm is from traditionally one of the most talent rich areas not just in the state of Ohio but all of the USA. His school in that area, Warren G Hardin, may be down right now, but they are a good coach away from competing again. Him saying work harder because that is what his school needs to do, is myopic thinking. That is like saying Howard should just get better to beat WGH. There may be years where it happens, but most years Howard would be at too much of a disadvantage to even try no matter how hard they worked.

Then you had a Massillon fan say no D4 team should care about competing against Glenville because Anderson and Loveland were able to beat them for titles in the past. Both schools are D2, those schools are of enough size that by building a program they can handle that competition better than a smaller school, so I am not seeing the logic in that statement. Now before anyone accuses me of attacking Glenville, I have great respect for the Glenville program and Ginn/Ginn Academy. I think it is great they are providing help to kids who would not have the opportunities otherwise. But you are talking about a D4 program that has 10+ college D1 prospects and 3 of them are ranked as the top 50 players in Ohio. Those players will be replaced by other D1 college prospects. That is not organic for a D4 school, hell that is nor organic for the majority of D1 programs. You can't have schools pulling kids from an entire metro area of 1- 2 million against micropolitan areas of 60,000 at best as most are small/rural towns of 15,000. There is no getting better and working harder once a team is just loaded with talent and more importantly depth. I am sure these smaller schools are going to work hard and not complain and do what they have to do to try and win. Hell, Perkins and Canton South both just battled and have nothing to be ashamed of in effort and more importantly how they conducted themselves. Yet the outcome was what everyone expected. Schools like that may even pull one off every so often, but how is that fun in the long haul let alone fair?

3rd and final point is to the gentlemen who says you win you move up for 3 years. If you win again, you keep moving up. There is a reason why Boxing has referee stoppage and the corner throwing in the towel. No one wants to see people keep getting pounded needlessly. We have all seen games where the smaller program (D7/D6/D5/) beat the highly ranked bigger program (Top 10 D3/D2/D1). But to do that for a season is hard on any team's health. The smaller schools would not have the depth (the whole reason why we classify teams by size to begin with) to make a schedule hard enough to play a few classes up that would allow them to prepare for the playoffs. They would be too beat up week in week out playing D3/D2 teams. 1 game here and there? Sure! A season? No! Plus, teams like the MAC or Ironton, could you imagine the financial burden due to travel cost playing a D3/D2 schedule? The other option is to keep your same small school schedule and be totally shell shocked in the playoffs and not in position to make a run. I am sure the kids would not be scared of the competition, but the adults in the room need to think for them. Hence my boxing analogy.
 
TheBranch79 said:
I completely agree with this statement. Unfortunately, CB only hurts the smaller schools and not all numbers are created equal. Are we really believing that a 4th string kid going to a small school should be worth the same amount as a stud QB? D1 Schools can bring whoever they want in with no impact whereas a small school that brings in that 4th stringer is now up a division.
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4th string at a small school? They probably only have 2nd string with a 3rd string player at a few positions.
 
lc5397 said:
I don't think you understand how this would actually play out in reality.
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What is so hard to understand. In division 1-4. Start with enrollment first year and then after year take a 4 year average and move up top15% of teams in each division an lower bottom 15%. Do it after every year with a 4 year average. Best teams go up and cheaters can battle it out for the d-1 or d-2 state title. Not rocket science..
 
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