A Simple Solution To The Competitive Balance Issue

invader03 said:
The complainers about promotion and demotion and punishing winners is a straw man argument. So let me get this straight. Almost all the real state contenders in d-4 and above cheat and recruit their players whether they are open enrollment of private schools. They have all star teams from around their counties and basically the same 10% of schools fight it out for a state championship every year. So the rest of the 90% get to get their brains bashed in if they qualify for the playoffs and play the all star teams. So to spare the lower divisions who cheat less, just do promotion and demotion in top 4 divisions. Problem solved. top 15% go up and and down every year based on a 4 year average of wins. Let all the cheaters fight it out in top 2 divisions.
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I find this odd because there is less parity and more blowouts in the small divisions. Ain’t that a problem too?
 
invader03 said:
What is so hard to understand. In division 1-4. Start with enrollment first year and then after year take a 4 year average and move up top15% of teams in each division an lower bottom 15%. Do it after every year with a 4 year average. Best teams go up and cheaters can battle it out for the d-1 or d-2 state title. Not rocket science..
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The bottom 3-4 divisions would devolve into something worse than an intramural/Rec league.
 
Oil Filter said:
How does closed-enrollment McKinley have the highest CB of any public school in the state?

Seems at odds with all of their noise about how Massillon is always bringing in kids.
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Are recruiter is doing a lousy job of evaluating talent.
 
firewatch said:
It’s stupid because in your model Marion Local would be D-1 currently.
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No you are really stupid. Common sense would tell you they would eventually run into a road block before 5-6 consecutive titles.

More likely they would repeat or maybe 3-peat and eventually lose in the playoffs in D4 or something. They would have to start facing TCC, Hoban, Kirtland, Avon, Glenville, Massilon, Chardon etc before they 6 peated their way to D1 like you alluded to in your dumb response.
 
cdub4 said:
No you are really stupid. Common sense would tell you they would eventually run into a road block before 5-6 consecutive titles.

More likely they would repeat or maybe 3-peat and eventually lose in the playoffs in D4 or something. They would have to start facing TCC, Hoban, Kirtland, Avon, Glenville, Massilon, Chardon etc before they 6 peated their way to D1 like you alluded to in your dumb response.
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Even the scenario that I brought up you could only move up 3 division max
 
Some of you are trying to solve problems that don’t exist and some of you are trying to kill a fly with a hammer. Dynasties are not a problem. Congratulations to schools that build programs to the point that schools of similar size can’t compete. That’s not their fault. It’s the Mount Union model. Sure, the system needs some tweaking to make sure Glenville and other magnet schools are treated the same as private schools. That’s an easy fix. But the idea that schools should be grouped by success rather than size is so dumb.
 
I wouldn’t mind if they found a way for a team to move up or move down but only 1 division would be the max for me. A team like Glenville slaughtering D4 2 years straight I don’t think they would care much about going to D3, and on the flip side a team like Minerva who hasn’t been able to compete going from D4 to D5. I only used those 2 as examples so glenville posters no need to cry
 
This topic is hysterical. We just saw the most chalk heavy favorites win every game in OHSAA history and the same 4-6 teams in each division win or finish 2nd every year, but lets just tinker with a CB formula. Joke. Try real change. Put all cheaters in same two divisions.
 
Mikefln said:
1st of all, it is stupid that the OSHAA does not allow teams to voluntarily move up on their own. If for example, a D4 school wants to move up to D3 or D2 for whatever reason, why is the OSHAA stopping them? I cannot even begin to talk about how stupid that is. No team is going to move up if they do not believe they can compete at that level for the 2-year cycle.
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Back when there were 6 divisions, there were a few years when D3 was stronger then D2. Should schools have been given the option to move up to D2 in this case ?
 
Impalaman said:
Back when there were 6 divisions, there were a few years when D3 was stronger then D2. Should schools have been given the option to move up to D2 in this case ?
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Force them to move up and if they get blasted.....they would drop down using a 4 year average. We cannot control recruiting with open enrollment so put all cheaters in same 2 divisions.
 
invader03 said:
This topic is hysterical. We just saw the most chalk heavy favorites win every game in OHSAA history and the same 4-6 teams in each division win or finish 2nd every year, but lets just tinker with a CB formula. Joke. Try real change. Put all cheaters in same two divisions.
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There isn’t anything inherently wrong with the same 4-6 teams winning championships in their respective divisions every year.

This is a solution in search of a problem.
 
dhsdog06 said:
As for competitive balance, I like Indiana's system. 4 points for a state title, 3 for runner up, 2 for regional title, 1 for regional runner up. 6 points in a 2 year span, you move up. 2 points in that higher division, you stay there. 1 or 0 you get moved back down.

This would mean the perennial powers like Hoban, TCC, Glenville would likely all get bumped up, but could also eventually lead to Marion Local (who breaks zero rules but has basically made D7 totally unwatchable. I'm serious when I say Good job Flyers though) could end up as high as D5 likely.

It's not perfect of course, as one good class could push a public into a division they can't compete in for 2 years once that class graduates. But it keeps the elite moving up while not punishing those that really haven't won anyway.
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I like this type of idea over the 'competitive balance' crap.
 
People don't understand what competitive balance really is, that's all. It's mis-labeled.

From my understanding, it has nothing to do with how well you perform at all. It only has to do with how many kids come from outside of the district, and how far they travel to get there.

While formed to even the playing field for those that 'recruit', it has way too many loopholes and is basically useless, IMO. If a school wants to skew their CB number, just have the family 'live' in an apartment near the school.

I agree with the Indiana way of doing things. It's definitely not perfect (nothing is), but does address true competition.

What I don't understand is why so many people are good with blowout championship games? I would've attended and loved to have seen TCC vs Glenville or Marion Local vs Kirtland. We need more championship games like the D5 game. There are too many blowouts.

Again, just my opinions!
 
Over Simplified Flow Chart

I included a link to the flow chart to determine what a student costs a school in competitive balance numbers. Part of the problem with it is the numbers game for schools who accept open enrollments. Lets say a kid gets kicked out of school and is "forced" to open enroll to a different district. If that district accepts that student, they count against the competitive balance, even if they have never played a sport. Extreme case, but I'm sure it happens. What if you have a district with an amazing special ed program or an amazing gifted program or ag, or band, or etc etc etc... and students in those demographics/with those interests want to open enroll there? We aren't competitively balancing their academic test scores or band and ag competitions (not sure ag competitions are a thing???), they count against sports, again, even if they don't play a sport at that school. Make it roster dependent. If they try out, they count. To be fair, I'm not sure how much of a problem this is, but could explain some school's competitive balance numbers being high despite not having great sports programs.
 
Squintz said:
What I don't understand is why so many people are good with blowout championship games?
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You will never legislate your way to consistently “better” championship games. Too many variables that are impossible to predict year to year.

And we’re setting aside the fact you’re essentially punishing schools that do it to it the “right” way (Kirtland and Marion Local, for example) in the name of “fairness.” Not every team will/should have a chance at the title. Hell, regardless of how you structure it, 75% of schools each year will have zero chance at winning a title. If winning a championship is the only goal we’re focusing on for high school sports, we’ve really lost our way.
 
lc5397 said:
You will never legislate your way to consistently “better” championship games. Too many variables that are impossible to predict year to year.

And we’re setting aside the fact you’re essentially punishing schools that do it to it the “right” way (Kirtland and Marion Local, for example) in the name of “fairness.” Not every team will/should have a chance at the title. Hell, regardless of how you structure it, 75% of schools each year will have zero chance at winning a title. If winning a championship is the only goal we’re focusing on for high school sports, we’ve really lost our way.
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you are way too low with schools that don't have a chance to win a state title. The per centage of schools who have zero shot to win state is around 94%. Might be lower. It seems the same 4 teams in each division are the only ones who have a shot now. A few teams do it the right way but why not change the rules to force the cheating schools to play each other instead of crushing non cheating teams.
 
invader03 said:
you are way too low with schools that don't have a chance to win a state title. The per centage of schools who have zero shot to win state is around 94%. Might be lower. It seems the same 4 teams in each division are the only ones who have a shot now. A few teams do it the right way but why not change the rules to force the cheating schools to play each other instead of crushing non cheating teams.
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Yes, I was low with my estimate so as not to offend folks. But the point is the same: you will not legislate your way to “fairness.”

The same teams winning in no way indicates a problem that needs to be “fixed.”
 
lc5397 said:
Yes, I was low with my estimate so as not to offend folks. But the point is the same: you will not legislate your way to “fairness.”

The same teams winning in no way indicates a problem that needs to be “fixed.”
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I feel like this goes back to the private vs public debate when talking about what is considered cheating. It's only cheating if it isn't legislated against. Do I feel a team like Toledo Central Catholic should be playing in DIII? No way. Do I think they're "cheating"? Also no, at least not based on the way the rules are spelled out.
 
lc5397 said:
Does anyone actually think schools would voluntarily elect to move up a division?
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I can see some D4 schools wanting to move to D3 because of glenville factor. But then you have the TCC squad. I think you’re right. Why would anyone want to move up. A state title is a state title no matter what division. A D1 title is no better or more important than a D7 title.
 
lc5397 said:
Does anyone actually think schools would voluntarily elect to move up a division?
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They do in PA for a variety of reason. The most notable is Aliquippa who is 1A and they played up to 3A. After winning the PIAA moved them up to 4A. They were threatened by the PIAA to be moved to 5A, thankfully the PIAA backdown, but now they are threating it again since Quips played in the past 4 state title games.
 
Mikefln said:
They do in PA for a variety of reason. The most notable is Aliquippa who is 1A and they played up to 3A. After winning the PIAA moved them up to 4A. They were threatened by the PIAA to be moved to 5A, thankfully the PIAA backdown, but now they are threating it again since Quips played in the past 4 state title games.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't division/region assignment also impact your regular season scheduling in PA?
 
Crimson and Black said:
I can see some D4 schools wanting to move to D3 because of glenville factor. But then you have the TCC squad.
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It just seems like over thinking it when you try to forecast whether moving up a division is competitively to your advantage as schools shift every year.
 
underthelights said:
I feel like this goes back to the private vs public debate when talking about what is considered cheating. It's only cheating if it isn't legislated against. Do I feel a team like Toledo Central Catholic should be playing in DIII? No way. Do I think they're "cheating"? Also no, at least not based on the way the rules are spelled out.
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We're not really talking about "cheating." We're talking about what people think is "fair." And, yes, you can legislate that. Whether it's open enrollment, private schools, etc. The real secret sauce in terms of school success (whether it's academic or athletic), frankly, correlates most closely with socio-economic indicators (household income, two-parent household, highest educational level attained by the heads of household, etc.). So, if we're really trying to be "fair," you'd have to account for that as well.
 
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