A Simple Solution To The Competitive Balance Issue

Force them to move up and if they get blasted.....they would drop down using a 4 year average. We cannot control recruiting with open enrollment so put all cheaters in same 2 divisions.
Over 70% of schools have open enrollment. You think they should all be in 2 divisions? That's a brilliant idea. Or how about just get better and quit whining about "cheaters".
 
If your CB number is 100 or above, you play in D1. If your number is 50-99, you cannot play in any division lower than D2. If your number is 25-49, you cannot play in any division lower than D3. If your number is less than 25, you play in what would be your normally assigned division under the current rules. By the way, I'm not sure how Glenville's CB number is 0. I have great respect for Coach Ginn and his staff. We played them in 2021 and our JV has played them each of the last three years. D4 is definitely not a level playing field with Glenville in it. No matter what anyone says, when a school has a CB number in football of 144 and a band consisting of 8 students, something is out of whack.
From a Georgia perspective. How bout making EVERY open enrollment/private school in the state, play in DI? It would probably discourage MANY schools from getting transfers, thus staying in a lower classification. It would have been interesting to see how Massillon would have fared, having to play a DI schedule, rather than the DIV. II slap pies.

We have a private school in Savannah named Benedictine. Who plays in Class 4A of seven. But can draw its enrollment from FIVE neighboring COUNTIES, in both Georgia AND South Carolina's low country. And Savannah metro alone, has approx. 250,000 people. And they USE to play in the 7A classification in the 1990's. WHAT'S changed, other than they CHOSE to limit enrollment, NOT the size of the talent pool. I would imagine that it works similarly in Ohio.
 
Over 70% of schools have open enrollment. You think they should all be in 2 divisions? That's a brilliant idea. Or how about just get better and quit whining about "cheaters".
SOUNDS like they reward MEDIOCRITY. Meadowcreek High School in Gwinnett Co., Ga., has 3,000 students, but is REQUIRED to play in the GHSA's highest classification. After having won only a dozen games the last five seasons, total. Because RATIONALLY, FOOTBALL is not ALL they play. They have eighteen sports, and they don't suck at all of them. If they were to move DOWN because of crappy football like some fifty schools in Georgia. They would no doubt dominate smaller schools, in other sports.
 
Ed's was without their QB and several kids were ill. So penalize Massillon ? Ed's lost to Massillon, should they drol to D2 ?
SOOO, you are saying what other folks are no doubt thinking. That Massillon AIN'T REALLY all that? Kinda like when UGA lost to the Gumps last week? Does ANYBODY think that a healthy Brock Bowers and Ladd McConkey would have been targeted only SIX times in the game? Not to mention that a one legged Bowers actually MISSED a block that got my guy Daijun Edwards eaten alive on a running play.
 
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I already said the list of recruiters....football powerhouse catholic schools such as Toledo central, St. Eds., St. Iggy, Hoban, St. V, Walsh Jesuit, Mentor lake Catholic, St joes, Ursuline, Mooney, St X, Moeler,....need I go on for you.
Open enrollment publics such as Glenville, Massillon , Fitch, Columbus publics like Oletangy and Hillard and so on.

These schools have a substantial advantage to other teams in same divisions. If they dominate their division...move up. If they struggle , they get to go back down. If you think current set up is fine with same 4 schools winning each division, then might as well scrap CB all together because its not working. I just gave a easier way to group teams who have similar resources and competitiveness because the state does not want to stop recruiting or separate privates from public or treat open enrollment powers from taking players, so this plan solves the issue without doing anything except put the teams with advantages like recruiting and cheating in same category.

Again, Marion Local proves that "competitive balance" is crap. Six divisions equal divisions w/ no CB would be just fine.

The "advantage" that the dominant private & OE public schools have is being located in/around large cities with certain issues/stereotypes being held against their public schools. Living in Warren, I know great athletes that played for Howland, but wanted to play for Harding. It's not hard to figure out why athletes in Cleveland would want to play for Iggy, Eds, Glenville, etc.

Tradition shouldn't be penalized, especially when the most dominant program in Ohio is among the smallest in the entire state.
 
There is no way they are reducing the number of football divisions. Heck, they are talking about adding two more basketball divisions.
 
People don't understand what competitive balance really is, that's all. It's mis-labeled.

From my understanding, it has nothing to do with how well you perform at all. It only has to do with how many kids come from outside of the district, and how far they travel to get there.

While formed to even the playing field for those that 'recruit', it has way too many loopholes and is basically useless, IMO. If a school wants to skew their CB number, just have the family 'live' in an apartment near the school.

I agree with the Indiana way of doing things. It's definitely not perfect (nothing is), but does address true competition.

What I don't understand is why so many people are good with blowout championship games? I would've attended and loved to have seen TCC vs Glenville or Marion Local vs Kirtland. We need more championship games like the D5 game. There are too many blowouts.

Again, just my opinions!
You make some really good points bro. I don't think people are okay with blowout championship games I just truthfully feel like in some years a team is that good in my personal opinion I don't think competitive balance is to blame for championship games being so lopsided. I think from the public school point of view you have them Public schools that just know how to build a program and everybody else is just behind and in a sense you can't punish them for being better than everybody else and I think in order to be able to establish a strong high school program you have to be solid from the youth program up. I don't want to ruffle any feathers but I am a current youth coach right now in Massillon and I can speak for some of the youth teams around here and the ones that complain are the same ones that do not care about their youth program and then blame everybody else for their High School not having success or they blame other schools for stealing their talent when in reality is their fault if you have a solid program kids are not going to want to leave now you might get the case where a kid might leave because he might not get no playing time and that's okay but some of the programs that I can speak for in Stark County is terrible and it's becoming a pattern in the high school. I personally think competitive balance is fine if they're not going to ever separate the public schools and the private schools then there's no point of complaining at all in my personal opinion you going to have some great years you going to have some bad years but I definitely feel like Ohio High School football took a great step this past year especially on the national level.
 
Perfect Marion Local can get slaughtered and shut all those idiots up that are delusional and think Marion Local and the MAC teams would be a state title contender in D-I, D-II or D-III or even D-IV as long as Glenville is there.
Yeah bro these MAC poster are wild thinking they can compete in D1
 
There is no way they are reducing the number of football divisions. Heck, they are talking about adding two more basketball divisions.

Of course they're not as the OHSAA has proven to be more interested in watering down football to make more money. I'm just saying from a "competitive" standpoint, the most dominant program in Ohio's divisional placement is based off of how many smaller schools can jump them as they have a CB # of 0. Divisions have always been based on enrollment. Not tradition, which is one of the main factors that attracts certain athletes to certain schools.
 
Didnt Massillon beat ed's this year. They should be in d-1
You might be the biggest clown on this site like seriously. Have you ever thought about the fact that we actually have a program like a legit program that produces D1 talent it didn't come overnight just because we beat St Ed's don't mean we're cheaters or we belong in division 1 so you pretty much want to get rid of all the threats just to make it easier on the other teams? What sense does that make? Like I stated before it all starts with your youth program your middle school programs if your programs at the lower levels are not good you are not going to magically be good when it comes to high school you have to open yourself up to a different level of competition when you are younger so when you become Juniors or seniors in high school it becomes easy you done seen some of the best athletes that the state has to offer. Your logic makes absolutely zero sense so get rid of all the teams that are competitive just bump them to D1 and give everybody else a free ride to a championship that they did not earn? Yeah alright bruh..... So punish the teams that have established their selves as great programs so with your logic that means ML should be division 1? Kirtland D1 as well right?
 
From a Georgia perspective. How bout making EVERY open enrollment/private school in the state, play in DI? It would probably discourage MANY schools from getting transfers, thus staying in a lower classification. It would have been interesting to see how Massillon would have fared, having to play a DI schedule, rather than the DIV. II slap pies.

We have a private school in Savannah named Benedictine. Who plays in Class 4A of seven. But can draw its enrollment from FIVE neighboring COUNTIES, in both Georgia AND South Carolina's low country. And Savannah metro alone, has approx. 250,000 people. And they USE to play in the 7A classification in the 1990's. WHAT'S changed, other than they CHOSE to limit enrollment, NOT the size of the talent pool. I would imagine that it works similarly in Ohio.
Everybody on our schedule that we played was D2 or D1 nice try. You know your life is a piece of 💩 when you don't even know how to troll correctly 😂😂😂😂😂😂
 
SOUNDS like they reward MEDIOCRITY. Meadowcreek High School in Gwinnett Co., Ga., has 3,000 students, but is REQUIRED to play in the GHSA's highest classification. After having won only a dozen games the last five seasons, total. Because RATIONALLY, FOOTBALL is not ALL they play. They have eighteen sports, and they don't suck at all of them. If they were to move DOWN because of crappy football like some fifty schools in Georgia. They would no doubt dominate smaller schools, in other sports.
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Whether a school is open enrollment or not has nothing to do with their football roster. With a couple of exceptions, most open enrollment public schools are not bringing in football players. Those that do have a bigger competitive balance number. The competitive balance number is the one to look at. Take the CB number and divide it by 3 and that is roughly the number of kids who have been brought in who play football - give or take a few who may only count as 1 under the CB formula. This CB number does not count those who transfer by actually moving into the district - like the kid from Michigan for Toledo Central Catholic or the QB from Copley for Massillon (both of whom I assume moved into the district or they wouldn't have been able to play the second half of the season). Those players are a 0 for CB purposes. I found it interesting that the guy Spectrum chose to interview on the sideline before the Hoban-Massillon game was Justin Zwick - Orville state championship quarterback who transferred to Massillon after his sophomore season. I'm not knocking any of these schools or especially the parents who want what is best for their kids. I'm just pointing out facts. They are all operating legally within the system as it currently exists. At least I think that they are.

Frankly, I'd be happy if the privates that recruit and the open enrollments that recruit, or move in transfers to play football, would just say: "We won because we have much better talent - not because we have a better "culture" or coaching staff or because we work harder than everybody else." The real on the field measure of any high school athletic program or coaching staff is "Do you do less with more or more with less?" Do you beat teams that are more talented than you; that have more college recruits than you have? If so, you probably have a pretty good program, culture, and coaching staff.

I saw what I thought were some pretty poorly coached games with tremendous talent in the state finals. When all you do is line up and run inside zone, outside zone, bubble screen and go routes, it ain't rocket science. When you line up and play a base defense with 7 or 8 in coverage because you can get great pressure with a 3-4 man rush, it ain't rocket science. You win with those schemes when you have more talent. When you have D1 bodies all over the field, it ain't rocket science. When you have a ton of pre-snap penalties and have to use all of your timeouts trying to get the right personnel in or because the play clock is running down, well.......... That's my last word on the topic. Just admit the truth. It's not a level playing field. Then we can all go about our merry ways and compete as best we can within the system as it is because, as someone said earlier in this thread, there really isn't a simple solution.
But that also makes no sense not trying to start no BS but in my personal opinion speaking from a Massillon perspective we do have a great program and a good culture it's not just because kids transfer in to our program. You can't diminish a program because kids transfer into the school obviously you have to have a good culture and a good program in order for kids to want to come to your school in the first place. In today's society kids want to play where the media is at where the big games are being played they're not just going to go play Just anywhere if there is no immediate coverage or anything that's not going to benefit them getting a college scholarship. Again bro like I said I'm not trying to start no pissing match match with you or nothing like that but that don't make sense you obviously have to have a great culture and an established program in order to be able to compete on the field I know as well as you know a lot of people do not like Massillon and that's okay but we have a great program that yes we get transfers but what a lot of people don't realize is the majority of the kids that are getting the big time scholarships are Massillon born kids same with Canton Mckinley those two programs for instance was not built overnight we've been playing football since 1894.
 
Whether a school is open enrollment or not has nothing to do with their football roster. With a couple of exceptions, most open enrollment public schools are not bringing in football players. Those that do have a bigger competitive balance number. The competitive balance number is the one to look at. Take the CB number and divide it by 3 and that is roughly the number of kids who have been brought in who play football - give or take a few who may only count as 1 under the CB formula. This CB number does not count those who transfer by actually moving into the district - like the kid from Michigan for Toledo Central Catholic or the QB from Copley for Massillon (both of whom I assume moved into the district or they wouldn't have been able to play the second half of the season). Those players are a 0 for CB purposes. I found it interesting that the guy Spectrum chose to interview on the sideline before the Hoban-Massillon game was Justin Zwick - Orville state championship quarterback who transferred to Massillon after his sophomore season. I'm not knocking any of these schools or especially the parents who want what is best for their kids. I'm just pointing out facts. They are all operating legally within the system as it currently exists. At least I think that they are.

Frankly, I'd be happy if the privates that recruit and the open enrollments that recruit, or move in transfers to play football, would just say: "We won because we have much better talent - not because we have a better "culture" or coaching staff or because we work harder than everybody else." The real on the field measure of any high school athletic program or coaching staff is "Do you do less with more or more with less?" Do you beat teams that are more talented than you; that have more college recruits than you have? If so, you probably have a pretty good program, culture, and coaching staff.

I saw what I thought were some pretty poorly coached games with tremendous talent in the state finals. When all you do is line up and run inside zone, outside zone, bubble screen and go routes, it ain't rocket science. When you line up and play a base defense with 7 or 8 in coverage because you can get great pressure with a 3-4 man rush, it ain't rocket science. You win with those schemes when you have more talent. When you have D1 bodies all over the field, it ain't rocket science. When you have a ton of pre-snap penalties and have to use all of your timeouts trying to get the right personnel in or because the play clock is running down, well.......... That's my last word on the topic. Just admit the truth. It's not a level playing field. Then we can all go about our merry ways and compete as best we can within the system as it is because, as someone said earlier in this thread, there really isn't a simple solution.
Also I don't know what game you're referring to but the smaller division games there was nothing spectacular with them neither. They played vanilla coverage basic 4-4,4,3 defenses then on offense I seen singleback ,I formation Wing T with some basic 2×2 spread offenses so your whole argument is kind of invalid because everybody is running the exact same thing just in different forms.
 
You might be the biggest clown on this site like seriously. Have you ever thought about the fact that we actually have a program like a legit program that produces D1 talent it didn't come overnight just because we beat St Ed's don't mean we're cheaters or we belong in division 1 so you pretty much want to get rid of all the threats just to make it easier on the other teams? What sense does that make? Like I stated before it all starts with your youth program your middle school programs if your programs at the lower levels are not good you are not going to magically be good when it comes to high school you have to open yourself up to a different level of competition when you are younger so when you become Juniors or seniors in high school it becomes easy you done seen some of the best athletes that the state has to offer. Your logic makes absolutely zero sense so get rid of all the teams that are competitive just bump them to D1 and give everybody else a free ride to a championship that they did not earn? Yeah alright bruh..... So punish the teams that have established their selves as great programs so with your logic that means ML should be division 1? Kirtland D1 as well right?
Hey all recruiting schools would love to keep beating up on non cheating schools. I admire your program but you have been linked to recruiting violations and on probation numerous times. You should be in d-1 period and everyone knows it. All the teams who are football factories should be in same 2 classes , simple as that. It will never happen so enjoy beating up on the creampuffs and enjoy your first real championship.
 
State championships dont even matter to 99.9% of high school athletes so who are we even obsessing over CB for? Adults in towns that dont have state championship caliber football programs? Funny how nobody can respond to Massillon DK point he keeps making about youth football. Is it because thats an actual call to action that anybody who really cared could get involved in and yall just like to bitch on the internet? Im guessing the vast majority dont even know the current state of their youth programs.
 
Again, Marion Local proves that "competitive balance" is crap. Six divisions equal divisions w/ no CB would be just fine.

The "advantage" that the dominant private & OE public schools have is being located in/around large cities with certain issues/stereotypes being held against their public schools. Living in Warren, I know great athletes that played for Howland, but wanted to play for Harding. It's not hard to figure out why athletes in Cleveland would want to play for Iggy, Eds, Glenville, etc.

Tradition shouldn't be penalized, especially when the most dominant program in Ohio is among the smallest in the entire state.
i respect your opinion Worm as a high school football guru. I have watched my entire life the same teams dominate the football state championships and it happens for two reasons. One is the old hard work ways like some of the small teams who win all the time like Kirtland and Marion and that awesome and should be admired. The other way is the recruiting way which is to raid nearby schools and become a superpower. I don't admire this way at all and it is a form of cheating. I really hated it when privates would be in smaller classes and destroy the publics who had zero chance to compete with the football factory. Mooney and Ursuline fall under this category. I think promotion and demotion is a better way than the current CB. If wont happen because cheaters love imbalance they get. Perkins would have won state this year if not for the Glenville scam going on. Glenville and Toledo CC and Massillon and Hoban should all be d-1. Since it will never happen, just enjoy seeing same 4 teams in each division play in the state games and attendance and interest in state football playoffs will continue to decline. I would be in favor of reducing the classifications to 4 and it would solve the problem and get better competition at the top.
 
i respect your opinion Worm as a high school football guru. I have watched my entire life the same teams dominate the football state championships and it happens for two reasons. One is the old hard work ways like some of the small teams who win all the time like Kirtland and Marion and that awesome and should be admired. The other way is the recruiting way which is to raid nearby schools and become a superpower. I don't admire this way at all and it is a form of cheating. I really hated it when privates would be in smaller classes and destroy the publics who had zero chance to compete with the football factory. Mooney and Ursuline fall under this category. I think promotion and demotion is a better way than the current CB. If wont happen because cheaters love imbalance they get. Perkins would have won state this year if not for the Glenville scam going on. Glenville and Toledo CC and Massillon and Hoban should all be d-1. Since it will never happen, just enjoy seeing same 4 teams in each division play in the state games and attendance and interest in state football playoffs will continue to decline. I would be in favor of reducing the classifications to 4 and it would solve the problem and get better competition at the top.
For me, CB should be about "leveling the playing field" before the players take the field. I cannot speak for how the elite programs become elite. For those doing with hard work, tradition, good coaching, district support, there's no reason to punish them for being better provided some biased competitive advantage. Don't penalize organic success as appears to occur at Kirtland and Marion Local.

the rest of the elites who DO have some form of competitive advantage before the players take the field, push the ones currently in D2-D3 into D1 and push the ones currently in D4-D7 into D4. This is NOT calling schools like Massillon or Glenville cheaters. To the contrary, their tradition is a draw that should not penalize them. I'm merely talking about the ability to draw from multiple ZIP Codes, counties, or states.

Anyone that thinks Hoban doesn't have a structural competitive advantage over other D2s like Nordonia or North Royalton is blind.
 
For me, CB should be about "leveling the playing field" before the players take the field. I cannot speak for how the elite programs become elite. For those doing with hard work, tradition, good coaching, district support, there's no reason to punish them for being better provided some biased competitive advantage. Don't penalize organic success as appears to occur at Kirtland and Marion Local.

the rest of the elites who DO have some form of competitive advantage before the players take the field, push the ones currently in D2-D3 into D1 and push the ones currently in D4-D7 into D4. This is NOT calling schools like Massillon or Glenville cheaters. To the contrary, their tradition is a draw that should not penalize them. I'm merely talking about the ability to draw from multiple ZIP Codes, counties, or states.

Anyone that thinks Hoban doesn't have a structural competitive advantage over other D2s like Nordonia or North Royalton is blind.
You last phrase says it all. "Anyone that thinks Hoban doesn't have a structural competitive advantage over other D2s like Nordonia or North Royalton is blind." Just like those who don't think Massillon and Toledo CC and Ursuline don't have a structural advantage over their divisions as well. " But those supporters go ballistic when you say they should bump up a division like crybabies. They like to punch down and bully lower programs and hate idea of playing someone with same advantages...Hint recruiters and cheaters.
 
You last phrase says it all. "Anyone that thinks Hoban doesn't have a structural competitive advantage over other D2s like Nordonia or North Royalton is blind." Just like those who don't think Massillon and Toledo CC and Ursuline don't have a structural advantage over their divisions as well. " But those supporters go ballistic when you say they should bump up a division like crybabies. They like to punch down and bully lower programs and hate idea of playing someone with same advantages...Hint recruiters and cheaters.
Your the one crying
 
That a really well thought out response to the issue. I am better off reading it. How many time have you been on probation for cheating or had investigations? Cheater got to cheat
 
That a really well thought out response to the issue. I am better off reading it. How many time have you been on probation for cheating or had investigations? Cheater got to cheat
 
Frankly, Kirtland playing in DVI or DVII is the equivalent of Glenville or TCC paying in DIII or DIV. Top to bottom, their roster just isn't comparable to the teams in their division.
Oh really? let's compare Kirtland's record and titles to ML. Almost forgot, difficulty in schedule .
 
For me, CB should be about "leveling the playing field" before the players take the field. I cannot speak for how the elite programs become elite. For those doing with hard work, tradition, good coaching, district support, there's no reason to punish them for being better provided some biased competitive advantage. Don't penalize organic success as appears to occur at Kirtland and Marion Local.

the rest of the elites who DO have some form of competitive advantage before the players take the field, push the ones currently in D2-D3 into D1 and push the ones currently in D4-D7 into D4. This is NOT calling schools like Massillon or Glenville cheaters. To the contrary, their tradition is a draw that should not penalize them. I'm merely talking about the ability to draw from multiple ZIP Codes, counties, or states.

Anyone that thinks Hoban doesn't have a structural competitive advantage over other D2s like Nordonia or North Royalton is blind.
A school like Avon also has a structural competitive advantage over the vast majority of schools in D2.
 
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