Ask The Ump?

thavoice

Well-known member
I saw this very situation years ago during a State Semi-Final. (in another state) Everyone in the park saw that the 3rd Base Umpire kicked a call and the Plate Umpire went to him to tell him just that. A long discussion was held and the 3rd Base Umpire changed his call....... television replay the next day indicated without a doubt that the only person to get the call right was the 3rd Base Umpire.

When we take a game that is played by people who make mistakes and is officiated by people who make mistakes and only try to "correct' the mistakes of only a segment of that game..... we create unintended consequences.

Life's not fair.........



Again... when you demand as a coach, player, or fan that a call be changed that went in your favor. Then and only then can you truly bring forth the argument that it's about getting the call right.

No official likes it when the kick a call..... believe me, I've lost many a week's worth of sleep over the years. However it is part of the game. It's never going to be perfect. (the silly attempt by the Atlantic League with their computer strike zone proves that even with technology, mistakes are made)

Quit trying to make it so.
I have to agree with your assessment. As we both stated, the only time an umpire should do this if they are incorrect on an interpretation of said rule.
With that said, I believe umps shouldn't be too into themselves to ask for help in certain situations. I saw a call a couple of weeks ago at the State ACME tournament. It was a call at second base, a very questionable one, where the umpire (3 man crew) literally was falling to the ground on his arse when the play was being actioned and made the call from his backside laying on the ground and wouldn't ask for any assistance. 50/50 on if the call was right or not but I don't think any team would have had an issue with him at least asking. It did possibly derail a last inning rally, but that is how it goes.


With that said, and I learned this the hard way, is from the coaching side that if you want an appeal to be made, do so in a calm, collective and pleasant demeanor as they are more likely to grant it. I successfully had two calls changed at first base by appealing to the HP umpire on the 1B pulling his foot. The first time I tried I was too rambunctious in wanting an appeal and they never granted it. (afterwards the umpire talked to me about my demeanor and that likely caused him to not ask). Other times I calmly asked the base ump if he could as the HP ump, and calmly stated that because the position he was in with a guy on first base doesn't allow him to see if he pulled his foot.

Worked twice (which I think was the right call).

With that said, I don't really want umps trumping one another on calls, just not good for the game. How many times do we watch games in live action, thinking it was wrong, only to find that the umpire right there was right? I am not talking about replay, as that goes frame by frame on a close up view, but an umpire from across the diamond who also has his own responsibility to take care of.
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
Runner at 2nd base. Grounder to the hole between shortstop and 3rd base. Shortstop charging, 3rd baseman cutting over and runner from 2nd sprinting to 3rd.

3rd baseman comes up with the ball and makes a throw to first base. Shortstop and runner collide just a couple feet behind the 3rd baseman. If the 3rd baseman hadn't made the play, the shortstop would have.

So with the collision, is this interference? Obstruction? Nothing?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Runner at 2nd base. Grounder to the hole between shortstop and 3rd base. Shortstop charging, 3rd baseman cutting over and runner from 2nd sprinting to 3rd.

3rd baseman comes up with the ball and makes a throw to first base. Shortstop and runner collide just a couple feet behind the 3rd baseman. If the 3rd baseman hadn't made the play, the shortstop would have.

So with the collision, is this interference? Obstruction? Nothing?
In this play only one fielder may be protected from interference by the runner. Since F5 fielded the ball, he is the protected fielder and F6 has the responsibility to not obstruct the runner.

F6 is guilty of obstruction involving the collision between him and the runner. Award the runner third base.

(could be a different base award depending on what happened to the ball after it was thrown towards first and how severe the contact was with the runner)
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
This is a tough one to describe and is mostly about younger players.

For a play at home, a runner is coming home. The pitcher is running to cover. Ball arrives before the runner but at a close time. The pitcher fears getting trucked so avoids the collision, which causes them to miss the throw. Can a runner be called out that does not slide because of almost creating a collision or do they actually have to make contact with the defender?

I know this might be one of those you have to see it plays...
 

AllSports12

Moderator
This is a tough one to describe and is mostly about younger players.

For a play at home, a runner is coming home. The pitcher is running to cover. Ball arrives before the runner but at a close time. The pitcher fears getting trucked so avoids the collision, which causes them to miss the throw. Can a runner be called out that does not slide because of almost creating a collision or do they actually have to make contact with the defender?

I know this might be one of those you have to see it plays...
Under NFHS rules, a runner is never required to slide, but if he does, he must execute the slide legally.

Unless there are special rules that require a runner to slide, (many youth leagues have a special rule) what you describe is nothing illegal.
 

fortfan

Well-known member
Under NFHS rules, a runner is never required to slide, but if he does, he must execute the slide legally.

Unless there are special rules that require a runner to slide, (many youth leagues have a special rule) what you describe is nothing illegal.
Annoys the heck out of me when people complain that a kid has to slide.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
Hasn't been a post on this thread in almost a year, so not sure if anyone still checks this, but I will throw a question out there anyways. I am an umpire, and in the Summers I mostly work high-level HS kids games (17U and 18U being scouted), and my partners are all college umpires.

Had a situation this past weekend that left me thinking "hmm", my college umpire partner was more definitive, but I will ask anyways....

Situation: Bases loaded, 3 - 2 count, 2 outs, so runners will be off on the pitch, pitcher is in the windup set-up. I was working the bases in C position. (and I knew this was coming, I could see they were up to something before the pitch)

What Happened: Pitcher (right-handed) steps back with his right foot and simulates a windup, meaning he took his right foot and placed it parallel to (but behind) the rubber, turned, and lifted his left leg like he was pitching. Then stopped and checked if any runners took the bait and started to move on the "pitch"...none had. Third base coach argued that it was a balk, neither of us called it as such.

Thinking/Logic: I didn't call it a balk because truthfully, I had never seen that attempted before and I just got caught in-between, replaying it in my mind, and didn't call anything, and also because no runners were deceived and no advantage was gained (no outs were made), I let it go. Upon conferring with my partner, he said since he stepped off the pitcher's plate legally, he became a fielder and "he could do jumping jacks up there if he wanted to". The argument by the 3B coach was that he simulated a pitch, and as such, should be a balk.


Balk or no?
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Hasn't been a post on this thread in almost a year, so not sure if anyone still checks this, but I will throw a question out there anyways. I am an umpire, and in the Summers I mostly work high-level HS kids games (17U and 18U being scouted), and my partners are all college umpires.

Had a situation this past weekend that left me thinking "hmm", my college umpire partner was more definitive, but I will ask anyways....

Situation: Bases loaded, 3 - 2 count, 2 outs, so runners will be off on the pitch, pitcher is in the windup set-up. I was working the bases in C position. (and I knew this was coming, I could see they were up to something before the pitch)

What Happened: Pitcher (right-handed) steps back with his right foot and simulates a windup, meaning he took his right foot and placed it parallel to (but behind) the rubber, turned, and lifted his left leg like he was pitching. Then stopped and checked if any runners took the bait and started to move on the "pitch"...none had. Third base coach argued that it was a balk, neither of us called it as such.

Thinking/Logic: I didn't call it a balk because truthfully, I had never seen that attempted before and I just got caught in-between, replaying it in my mind, and didn't call anything, and also because no runners were deceived and no advantage was gained (no outs were made), I let it go. Upon conferring with my partner, he said since he stepped off the pitcher's plate legally, he became a fielder and "he could do jumping jacks up there if he wanted to". The argument by the 3B coach was that he simulated a pitch, and as such, should be a balk.


Balk or no?
I'm extremely disappointed that a college umpire doesn't know this rule. This is day one new umpire class stuff as 99% of every new action in a baseball game starts with the pitcher on the mound and he cannot cannot legally do.

That said.....This is a balk under every rule code.

Official Baseball Rules 6.02 Pitcher Illegal Action
(a) Balks

If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when:
(7) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate;

NCAA Baseball Rules Rule 9 Pitching

SECTION 3 - If there is a runner or runners, a balk shall be called for the following action by a pitcher:

(m) - When the pitcher makes a natural pitching motion while not touching the pitcher’s rubber

NFHS Baseball Rules Rule 6 Pitching

Section 2 - Infractions by pitcher

ART. 5 . . . It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher's plate, makes any movement naturally associated with his pitch, or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher's plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher's plate without having the ball
 
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CoachHoversten

Active member
Good to know...thank you, I was on the field second-guessing myself, and my partner was crew chief and my "superior" since he is college, so I didn't question it, but then as you said, the simulating of the pitch was what ate at me later, so I asked. It was my first game since last year, so guess I was rusty too, like the players.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Best thread on yappi!

Read this last night, and didnt respond because I thought I was missing something because, sorry Mr H, but that is balk all day long.


With that said, what levels are supposed to do the silliness of having the umps behind the pitcher? First game last night, and AS I EXPECTED/PREDICTED when the stupid rules came out, that it was pretty much business as usual. ONLY thing that was diff was one team did sit in the bleachers but other than that there was no difference.

Looking forward to another summer of learning, and some times educating, the ins and outs of umpiring. One day I may get into it. Last eye appt i was 20/30 vision. When I get to 20/40 or worse I am eligible for the classes!
 

Bugsy8875

Member
Best thread on yappi!

Read this last night, and didnt respond because I thought I was missing something because, sorry Mr H, but that is balk all day long.


With that said, what levels are supposed to do the silliness of having the umps behind the pitcher? First game last night, and AS I EXPECTED/PREDICTED when the stupid rules came out, that it was pretty much business as usual. ONLY thing that was diff was one team did sit in the bleachers but other than that there was no difference.

Looking forward to another summer of learning, and some times educating, the ins and outs of umpiring. One day I may get into it. Last eye appt i was 20/30 vision. When I get to 20/40 or worse I am eligible for the classes!
I have 6 games this weekend for the Diamond League (NE Ohio) Tournament. It's pretty good Summer ball for 15-18u. They have us behind the pitcher as of now. We shall see how it goes. I will try to report back Friday night or sometime this weekend to give my two cents on how it went.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Yeah it will be interesting how long that charade will last.

Keep us posted.
If calling pitches from behind the mound was a good idea, it would have been implemented by long before the virus arrived.

A friend of mine has a son who played in a 14u game (tourney) on Saturday. Two ejections, physical threats, and a group of umpires threatening to walk after an argument over a fair/foul call. The tourney had umpires behind the mound.

The umpire group said "we either do it right or you do it yourself"......(they should have said that the morning of the tourney) The tourney organizers relented.

Bugsy, you guys have the leverage here.
 
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thavoice

Well-known member
If calling pitches from behind the mound was a good idea, it would have been implemented by long before the virus arrived.

A friend of mine has a son who played in a 14u game (tourney) on Saturday. Two ejections, physical threats, and a group of umpires threatening to walk after an argument over a fair/foul call. The tourney had umpires behind the mound.

The umpire group said "we either do it right or you do it yourself"......(they should have said that the morning of the tourney) The tourney organizers relented.

Bugsy, you guys have the leverage here.
Parent suck.

It makes absolutely ZERO cents to act like J/O.

When I was coaching at the HS level in the summer, a couple of times one umpire didnt show up so the HP had to do it all. Being a coach, you knew any sort of questing a call at second base on a steal was just plain a waste of time so you just didnt do it.


I really, really dont know why people get so fired up, especially in these run of the mill tournaments.
 

Bugsy8875

Member
If calling pitches from behind the mound was a good idea, it would have been implemented by long before the virus arrived.

A friend of mine has a son who played in a 14u game (tourney) on Saturday. Two ejections, physical threats, and a group of umpires threatening to walk after an argument over a fair/foul call. The tourney had umpires behind the mound.

The umpire group said "we either do it right or you do it yourself"......(they should have said that the morning of the tourney) The tourney organizers relented.

Bugsy, you guys have the leverage here.
I agree. I know pregame conversations with my partner about the plate meeting will be about letting these coaches know, we will do our best under the circumstances. They need to understand the issues that are now created (3B line especially). Been very fortunate in my umpire career not to have too many issues. I try to set a very respectful tone at the plate meeting. Two phrases I always wrap up my plate meeting with are, "Let's make sure all four of us are leaders of great sportsmanship", and "Let's enjoy the great game of baseball." Coaches seem to agree with me and we seem to have discussions if needed during a game rather than arguments.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I agree. I know pregame conversations with my partner about the plate meeting will be about letting these coaches know, we will do our best under the circumstances. They need to understand the issues that are now created (3B line especially). Been very fortunate in my umpire career not to have too many issues. I try to set a very respectful tone at the plate meeting. Two phrases I always wrap up my plate meeting with are, "Let's make sure all four of us are leaders of great sportsmanship", and "Let's enjoy the great game of baseball." Coaches seem to agree with me and we seem to have discussions if needed during a game rather than arguments.
The plate conference should be for lineups and ground rules. The TD should have laid down the law prior to the first game of the tourney. You should not have to apologize for, explain, or justify any rules that are outside the realm of the rule book.

Typical of how TD's hang umpires out to dry....
 

Bugsy8875

Member
The plate conference should be for lineups and ground rules. The TD should have laid down the law prior to the first game of the tourney. You should not have to apologize for, explain, or justify any rules that are outside the realm of the rule book.

Typical of how TD's hang umpires out to dry....
Not saying the TD hasn't laid down the law. I'm just stating that I am overall respectful at the plate meeting. This is a very unique situation for all of us and conversations on those topics will come up.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Think the least arguing I have seen was at a tourny where it was written in stone any argue jg by the coach was a100 fine.


Glad to see the tourney this weekend is not doing the stupid behind the pitcher placement of ump.
 

Bugsy8875

Member
Yeah it will be interesting how long that charade will last.

Keep us posted.

Finished 4 of 6 of my games this weekend having modified mechanics with one umpire behind the pitcher calling balls and strikes. I went in with an open mind. These are just my experiences, nothing more, nothing less.

- All coaches and players I were around were great.
- Calling pitches behind the pitcher was pretty easy. Velocity was good enough to get good looks. Hardly any complaints. I found myself enjoying this view at times.
- The integrity of the game was still in check with the modified mechanics. Plays at all bases were covered with hustle to get good angles. No complaints from coaches or players. We had one question on a call, but it would of been a question in traditional mechanics as well.
- Biggest issue were hard shots down the LF line. If the line is not marked well or grass is tall, that call can be difficult.
- Left handed pitchers had no advantage with runner on first with an umpire always in the A position.

In summary, initially I was very skeptical when presented this. Went in with an open mind and came away feeling like things went really well. Having the PU behind the catcher is preferred, but by no means doing what some are doing , the game is not being ruined or losing much at all.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Only difference in this tourny from other years is there was.no post game hand shake and you couldn't play with the opponents balls.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
I have umpired 13 games in the last 3 days, all 18U for tourney in Akron/canton area. All umps were behind the dish, had option to wear a mask, I know of one who did for their own very good reason.

In 13 games, have had very few issues, most are just happy to be playing again. But I did have a couple questions and comments, would like to hear from All Sports.

1) What is the “best” mechanic for BU to get help on a “banger” at first base as to whether the 1B held the bag? Obviously is the batter-runner beat the throw, the foot is irrelevant. So if I’ve got a banger-out that requires a hard call (selling it) but want help making sure the foot held, do I emphasize out and then point and say “did he hold”? Or do I immediately ask for help and then signal out if he held? I thought I knew and my partner said to do other so I’ll wait and see.

2) I’m on bases in A position, the infield dirt goes to about 50 feet behind the 1B bag. The 1B lines up every time with his heels on the grass, sometimes even 2 steps into the grass. Even if I don’t get behind him and am beside him, I’m 50-60 ft from first base. Is there a “cutoff”distance where the umpire just lines up in front of the 1B? When I was 5-10 ft behind him, I was 70 ft from the bag and was a struggle to get into position and set in time to read the throw and adjust as needed.

3) had a kid this wknd do the set position arm dangle and I balked him. Wouldn’t have known without re-reading this entire thread just before tourney , and my partner didn’t know, and all but one coach didn’t know, so got a call right bc of this thread!
 

bucksman

Moderator
From what I was taught, in scenario #1, there should be a call made on the field (out/safe) then you can ask/look for help using whatever mechanic you decided on prior the the game to verify the first baseman's foot. I have what I do in the scenario, but I'll defer to AS12 for a/the more proper protocol.

With respect to #2, seems surprising that in a 60/90 game the infield dirt would go that deep. If 1B is super deep, I'll go even/maybe a step behind. I can't think off the top of my head of a scenario where I've said "f--- it", I'm going in front but I might have in the past (probably younger age game on a field set for older age play).
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Saw a first.
First baseman called for a fielders balk for having a foot in fouk territory.

Knew it was a rule , but never seen it called or even warned before.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
From what I was taught, in scenario #1, there should be a call made on the field (out/safe) then you can ask/look for help using whatever mechanic you decided on prior the the game to verify the first baseman's foot. I have what I do in the scenario, but I'll defer to AS12 for a/the more proper protocol.

With respect to #2, seems surprising that in a 60/90 game the infield dirt would go that deep. If 1B is super deep, I'll go even/maybe a step behind. I can't think off the top of my head of a scenario where I've said "f--- it", I'm going in front but I might have in the past (probably younger age game on a field set for older age play).
1) that’s what I thought and do, but was told “if you sell an out call, you don’t want to have to then overturn it bc of foot pull, now you look the fool”, since the point of selling the call is to show confidence in your call.

2) the dirt was indeed that far back, I paced it off, it took me 18 steps to get from the bag to the beginning of the grass. When I played college baseball, 24 paces was 60.5 feet. And like I said, sometimes the 1B was playing a couple steps into the grass, so I was a long ways from 1B
 

AllSports12

Moderator
1) What is the “best” mechanic for BU to get help on a “banger” at first base as to whether the 1B held the bag? Obviously is the batter-runner beat the throw, the foot is irrelevant. So if I’ve got a banger-out that requires a hard call (selling it) but want help making sure the foot held, do I emphasize out and then point and say “did he hold”? Or do I immediately ask for help and then signal out if he held? I thought I knew and my partner said to do other so I’ll wait and see.

2) I’m on bases in A position, the infield dirt goes to about 50 feet behind the 1B bag. The 1B lines up every time with his heels on the grass, sometimes even 2 steps into the grass. Even if I don’t get behind him and am beside him, I’m 50-60 ft from first base. Is there a “cutoff”distance where the umpire just lines up in front of the 1B? When I was 5-10 ft behind him, I was 70 ft from the bag and was a struggle to get into position and set in time to read the throw and adjust as needed.

3) had a kid this wknd do the set position arm dangle and I balked him. Wouldn’t have known without re-reading this entire thread just before tourney , and my partner didn’t know, and all but one coach didn’t know, so got a call right bc of this thread!
1) The official NFHS and OHSAA mechanic for plays such as this (pulled foot or swipe tag) is for the Base Umpire to make the call. That call is yours, so own it. Two man games present situations that can cause us not to have the best angle in the world to make the call. We have to work hard to minimize those situations. It is our job to get into position to get the best look.

Once you make the call, that call stands unless you seek help from your partner. That should only happen if a coach requests that you seek help. If you choose to do so (should be rare), it is done with time called and no coach around. (requesting coach returns to dugout) If your partner offers you information that convinces you that the call is incorrect, then you have the option to change the call. If not, the call stands and no further discussion is warranted.

Never see the play happen and ask your partner for help. Never make the call and then immediately ask your partner for help.

2) You describe a strange infield set up here. If the grass is 60 feet past the bag and F3 plays at the edge of the grass...... you have a long day in store for you. Outs will be few and far between at the bag and you'll be potentially crossing the basepath fairly close to the batter-runner on balls hit to the outfield. That said, we should be 12-15ft past the bag in foul territory while in the A position. If F3 plays deeper than that, we should always start a step or two behind him.

3) The gorilla arm is illegal under NFHS rules. That does not mean the pitcher can't have the arm hanging down, he just cannot move it back and forth. (slight movement is a judgment call..... don't let the pitcher illegally deceive the runners, but don't get too picky either)
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Saw a first.
First baseman called for a fielders balk for having a foot in fouk territory.

Knew it was a rule , but never seen it called or even warned before.
There is no such thing as a fielder's balk. And what you describe is legal.

If at the time of the pitch (defined as when the pitcher has committed himself to delivering the pitch to the batter) a fielder (other than the catcher) does not have at least one foot in fair territory, then the pitch becomes illegal. An illegal pitch with runners on base is a balk.

NFHS Rule 1-1-4

At the time of the pitch, all fielders shall be on fair ground except the catcher who shall be in the catcher's box. A fielder is in fair ground when at least one foot is touching fair ground.

The only way this actually can be detected is when an umpire is in the A position (first base line) the umpire is looking at the pitcher and can see the fielder and the pitcher. In a two man game this is impossible to see. Umpires that call this are referred to as OOU's (overly officious umpires)

In all other levels, this is nothing more than a "don't do that". It's illegal, but carries no penalty
 

thavoice

Well-known member
There is no such thing as a fielder's balk. And what you describe is legal.

If at the time of the pitch (defined as when the pitcher has committed himself to delivering the pitch to the batter) a fielder (other than the catcher) does not have at least one foot in fair territory, then the pitch becomes illegal. An illegal pitch with runners on base is a balk.

NFHS Rule 1-1-4

At the time of the pitch, all fielders shall be on fair ground except the catcher who shall be in the catcher's box. A fielder is in fair ground when at least one foot is touching fair ground.

The only way this actually can be detected is when an umpire is in the A position (first base line) the umpire is looking at the pitcher and can see the fielder and the pitcher. In a two man game this is impossible to see. Umpires that call this are referred to as OOU's (overly officious umpires)

In all other levels, this is nothing more than a "don't do that". It's illegal, but carries no penalty
And to boot....the HP uno called it......


So when do say pitcher is committed to delivery, would say that starts when the pitcher begins his motion to pitch or just getting a signal?

This was called very early, when the pitcher was getting the sign.
 

Bugsy8875

Member
Saw a first.
First baseman called for a fielders balk for having a foot in fouk territory.

Knew it was a rule , but never seen it called or even warned before.
With rules like that, I always think of why they exist (Not saying they should't, I just try to understand why). Why would at least one foot have to be in fair territory? If that rule didn't exist, you could put an extra defender behind the catcher I suppose if there was some benefit in a certain situation.

Rules like the foul tip caught for strike three being an out but not on strike one or two. I understand why as I have gotten older and became an umpire, but there was a time when I really didn't think about why it was. Great conversations to have with baseball buddies.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
Thanks for the
1) The official NFHS and OHSAA mechanic for plays such as this (pulled foot or swipe tag) is for the Base Umpire to make the call. That call is yours, so own it. Two man games present situations that can cause us not to have the best angle in the world to make the call. We have to work hard to minimize those situations. It is our job to get into position to get the best look.

Once you make the call, that call stands unless you seek help from your partner. That should only happen if a coach requests that you seek help. If you choose to do so (should be rare), it is done with time called and no coach around. (requesting coach returns to dugout) If your partner offers you information that convinces you that the call is incorrect, then you have the option to change the call. If not, the call stands and no further discussion is warranted.

Never see the play happen and ask your partner for help. Never make the call and then immediately ask your partner for help.

2) You describe a strange infield set up here. If the grass is 60 feet past the bag and F3 plays at the edge of the grass...... you have a long day in store for you. Outs will be few and far between at the bag and you'll be potentially crossing the basepath fairly close to the batter-runner on balls hit to the outfield. That said, we should be 12-15ft past the bag in foul territory while in the A position. If F3 plays deeper than that, we should always start a step or two behind him.

3) The gorilla arm is illegal under NFHS rules. That does not mean the pitcher can't have the arm hanging down, he just cannot move it back and forth. (slight movement is a judgment call..... don't let the pitcher illegally deceive the runners, but don't get too picky either)
Thanks for the info. regarding the responses:

1) good information, so I was mostly correct in that I made the call. But I asked for help on my own bc I got straight-lined. The head coach came to argue and before he could say one thing I said “coach, I’ve got an out on the timing and I’m getting help on the foot” and he never complained. But it’s worth mentioning that this happened in a very competitive game (ended up 3-2 after 9 innings) AND was the game where the F3 who played 60 ft behind the bag was in the field, so being in position to not need help and take that read step bc of the throw just wasn’t really possible. I was unsure of foot and wanted to get the right call but I was sure that if he did hold it, the timing of the play was an out.

2) cloverleaf HS is the field if anyone has ever played or umpired there is where the grass is recessed so far back. So again, we are “supposed to be” 12-15 ft back, and “supposed to be” a step or two behind F3, so I was 55-60 ft from bag instead of 12-15.
 

GCPRO

Well-known member
A question to all umpires-I umpired for a decade or so, mostly travel ball as I was coaching HS ball, but my question was in regard to the framing of pitches that's discussed in recent times. As an umpire I called the pitch as it crossed the plate/batter, the framing of how it was caught never entered into the situation. I never took an umpiring instruction class and actually as I recall wasn't even sanctioned as this was in the 80's to early 90's and just knew the assigners. How does one call the correct ball/strike?
 
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