Ask the ref?

bucksman

Moderator
AR waves flag for a foul he believes was committed, center ref allows play to continue/does not see. "Foul" occurred 25 yards out from goal, player continues breakaway and just misses the shot. Center ref discusses with AR and gives the offensive team free kick from original foul location....thus allowing second opportunity to score.

Thoughts?
That would seem to be imprudent.
 

EastYoungstown

Active member
Per NFHS rules this year, the clock MUST stop inside the last five minutes of regulation when the leading team is substituting, unless they are up by six or more (i.e. running clock is in effect) -- as per NFHS rule 7-4-3. There has been no change to the rule that the referee has the right to stop the clock at his discretion for other types of time wasting -- as per NFHS rule 7-4-1
Thanks for clarifying. I've actually seen 2 refs do this over the last week and wondered whether this was a new thing or not.

Once a ball was kicked out by the LOSING team a fair distance and as the WINNING TEAM'S player went to retrieve it for a throw in, the ref stopped the clock.

The other time the ball was again kicked out a far way, this time into the stands. The ball girl, extra ball in hand, quickly got the losing teams player the ball and as she was ready to throw it in the ref was signalling to the press box to stop the clock. Seemed he was more worried about stopping the clock than paying attention to the fact that the player was already throwing the ball in.

I didn't think either case justified a stoppage but I'm glad you clarified that.
 

EastYoungstown

Active member
Question for fellow refs....

Now that HS has the rule where any number of players can be present for a drop ball, has anyone had any trouble with this?

I still see every team still sending 1 player for them.
 

shoprat2

Member
Saw a tough one tonight. Shot taken on a ck and it goes in. Ref on that side at mid field says no goal hole in the side net. Unfortunately he was the ref that did not do Pre-game inspection and after looking at the net could not find a hole. Ruling was goal kick. Players and coaches both agreed after match it was good and video seemed to agree. Tough break in a game that ended 2-1.
 
Saw a weird one today in a boys' high school game. Player gets fouled in the box, AR calls for a penalty kick. Over the course of 60-90 seconds the keeper and kicker line up, the rest of the players line up. The AR blows his whistle, the kicker advances on the ball, kicks it past the outstretched arms of the keeper for a goal, the refs signal the goal as good. But wait a second ... the keeper tells the AR he wasn't ready (even though he was horizontal in his effort to stop the PK). The AR consults with the center ref, and the call for a re-kick, which is blocked. How can this be?
 

EastYoungstown

Active member
Saw a weird one today in a boys' high school game. Player gets fouled in the box, AR calls for a penalty kick. Over the course of 60-90 seconds the keeper and kicker line up, the rest of the players line up. The AR blows his whistle, the kicker advances on the ball, kicks it past the outstretched arms of the keeper for a goal, the refs signal the goal as good. But wait a second ... the keeper tells the AR he wasn't ready (even though he was horizontal in his effort to stop the PK). The AR consults with the center ref, and the call for a re-kick, which is blocked. How can this be?
Once the ref blows the whistle and the kick is taken I don't see how you do it over.
 

hammer89

Active member
Are you sure that the kick was retaken because he "wasn't ready?" How do you know? What if it was retaken because of encroachment or some other foul by the kicking team?
 
Saw a weird one today in a boys' high school game. Player gets fouled in the box, AR calls for a penalty kick. Over the course of 60-90 seconds the keeper and kicker line up, the rest of the players line up. The AR blows his whistle, the kicker advances on the ball, kicks it past the outstretched arms of the keeper for a goal, the refs signal the goal as good. But wait a second ... the keeper tells the AR he wasn't ready (even though he was horizontal in his effort to stop the PK). The AR consults with the center ref, and the call for a re-kick, which is blocked. How can this be?
None of what you said makes any sense, including why the AR was involved (or even had a whistle) aside from making the initial foul call.
 
Are you sure that the kick was retaken because he "wasn't ready?" How do you know? What if it was retaken because of encroachment or some other foul by the kicking team?
The AR talked to the coach of the player attempting the PK, the coach relayed the conversation to the people in the stands. The officials initially started walking the ball to midfield, then reversed course and talked to the keeper for 30-45 seconds. The two refs then huddled and waived off the goal. So there was no encroachment called. Like I say, it was a weird one.
 
None of what you said makes any sense, including why the AR was involved (or even had a whistle) aside from making the initial foul call.
There were only two refs, but the ref making the call was technically the AR, as the other ref was conveying info to the coaches and handling all other Center Ref duties.
 

OhioBobcatFan06

Well-known member
AR waves flag for a foul he believes was committed, center ref allows play to continue/does not see. "Foul" occurred 25 yards out from goal, player continues breakaway and just misses the shot. Center ref discusses with AR and gives the offensive team free kick from original foul location....thus allowing second opportunity to score.

Thoughts?
Goal kick. Card someone if you need to. Still goal kick.
 

bucksman

Moderator
In high school, if there are two officials, they are in a "two-man" or a "dual" system. There is a head referee and a referee. Both officials have whistles.
 
The AR talked to the coach of the player attempting the PK, the coach relayed the conversation to the people in the stands. The officials initially started walking the ball to midfield, then reversed course and talked to the keeper for 30-45 seconds. The two refs then huddled and waived off the goal. So there was no encroachment called. Like I say, it was a weird one.
Are you sure the "encroachment" wasn't by the Shooter, in which case a scored PK "would" / should (by Rule) be retaken. In your original statement, you said "the kicker advances the ball".......are you saying he 'dribbled' the ball from the PK spot BEFORE shooting it? If that was the case, the 'Retake' was the proper decision......
 

shoprat2

Member
Saw this one today. Under new timing rules clock stops for subs in last 5 minutes. Officials did not motion for clock stoppage but clock operator stopped it any way. Who was right?
 
Saw this one today. Under new timing rules clock stops for subs in last 5 minutes. Officials did not motion for clock stoppage but clock operator stopped it any way. Who was right?
I think that the clock operator must follow the instructions of the referee, who ultimately is in charge of the clock. Not soccer, but I officiated football for 15 years and now I do the clock for my son's high school team (he's in the marching band). It's tough for me when I know the clock should be started/stopped based on the game conditions, but I always follow the officials signals.
 
I think that the clock operator must follow the instructions of the referee, who ultimately is in charge of the clock. Not soccer, but I officiated football for 15 years and now I do the clock for my son's high school team (he's in the marching band). It's tough for me when I know the clock should be started/stopped based on the game conditions, but I always follow the officials signals.
It's also possible that the particular Center or Referee 1 (in a Dual System) instructed the clock operator in Pre-Game and then either forgot or didn't bother to signal to stop the clock (if they were certain the Operator would accomplish the task, IOW). For me, even though I instruct the C.O. in PreGame, and am ensured they 'know what they're doing', I still give the signal, for several reasons......
 

rossford_resident

Active member
Suspension length for fighting? I was at a game yesterday where:

Defender on Team A clears the ball. Forward on Team B attempting to pressure Team A arrives late and runs into the defender. It was a hard foul and, IMO, worthy of a yellow card. Both players go to the ground. Defender from Team A stands up and shoves Team B forward back to the ground, which I assume would be a straight red card. A second player from Team B then comes in and starts swinging wildly at the player from Team A, who catches a punch in the and immediately starts swinging in retaliation.

Referees, other players, and coaches separate them without much more transpiring.

Both players who fought were given straight reds. The Team B player who committed the initial foul, from what I could tell, was not penalized.

Just wondering what the implications are for the two players who were ejected.
 
Offside question from game I was at last night. Offensive player in a clear offside position scores on a play. When asked, AR says that the player was put onside by a deliberate play on the ball by the defender. In this particular case, the defender stretched out his leg in attempt to stop the pass and it hit off his foot. In your opinions, how deliberate of a play needs to occur in order for the offensive player to be deemed onside.

Spirit of full disclosure - my son was the center back on this play (although not the player who had the ball hit his foot). He was the one asking for clarification of the ruling.
 

rossford_resident

Active member
Offside question from game I was at last night. Offensive player in a clear offside position scores on a play. When asked, AR says that the player was put onside by a deliberate play on the ball by the defender. In this particular case, the defender stretched out his leg in attempt to stop the pass and it hit off his foot. In your opinions, how deliberate of a play needs to occur in order for the offensive player to be deemed onside.

Spirit of full disclosure - my son was the center back on this play (although not the player who had the ball hit his foot). He was the one asking for clarification of the ruling.
Same exact play happened in the game I was at - ruled offside. Three players offside after a corner was cleared. Offensive player attempts a square ball to a midfielder at the top of the 18. Deflected by defender straight to one of the offensive players just above the top of the 6.

Same game with the fight, and an own goal when the keeper caught a free kick with both hands extended above his head and then took three steps backwards across the line...
 
Same exact play happened in the game I was at - ruled offside. Three players offside after a corner was cleared. Offensive player attempts a square ball to a midfielder at the top of the 18. Deflected by defender straight to one of the offensive players just above the top of the 6.

Same game with the fight, and an own goal when the keeper caught a free kick with both hands extended above his head and then took three steps backwards across the line...
Sounds like an interesting game, on all fronts.

Unfortunately, the red card info is something we needed to look up earlier this season after a bench clearing brawl that resulted in three red cards and a suspended game with 14:40 left in the second half. Our coaching staff added three one game suspensions after watching the tape of the game and seeing three players leave the bench to get involved in the fight.
 

rossford_resident

Active member
Sounds like an interesting game, on all fronts.

Unfortunately, the red card info is something we needed to look up earlier this season after a bench clearing brawl that resulted in three red cards and a suspended game with 14:40 left in the second half. Our coaching staff added three one game suspensions after watching the tape of the game and seeing three players leave the bench to get involved in the fight.
Yeah. It was a strange one. My son plays FB and had a sure goal kept out by a handball after a corner. He's a senior and it would have been the first HS goal of his career. The defender literally reached out and knocked it out of the air ala Luis Suarez. We scored what was ultimately the deciding goal on the resulting penalty, although the coach didn't let him take it.

The crazy thing is that my other son was kicking in a HS football game 45 minutes away and I'd planned on leaving at halftime. We'd beaten this team 4-0 last time after scoring 4 goals in the first 15 minutes and then playing the reserves for most of the game. All of the action happened in the second half.

In the football game, my son has been out for 4 weeks with a hip flexor and wasn't even sure the trainer would allow him to dress. The other kicker got hurt in the 1st quarter and he ended up having to kick the rest of the game.
 

coolguy

Well-known member
Offside question from game I was at last night. Offensive player in a clear offside position scores on a play. When asked, AR says that the player was put onside by a deliberate play on the ball by the defender. In this particular case, the defender stretched out his leg in attempt to stop the pass and it hit off his foot. In your opinions, how deliberate of a play needs to occur in order for the offensive player to be deemed onside.

Spirit of full disclosure - my son was the center back on this play (although not the player who had the ball hit his foot). He was the one asking for clarification of the ruling.

Officials will make these decisions based on if the individual's contact with the ball is deliberate or not. The amount of space and time to react to the ball as well as the position in which the individual is in are factors to think about before blowing the whistle. I bolded the line "stretched out his leg in attempt" because the center referee will see this and decide to blow the whistle for offside if he/she judges that it was a deliberate play on the ball with adequate time/space to negate the argument for it being a deflection.

Stretching out the leg is the natural reaction for the defender, but it all likelihood negated any offside whistle. Another good example is when a defender jumps and the ball barely skims the head and to an offensive player who was standing in the offside position. The act of jumping in all likelihood will negate an offside whistle.

These are good things to know because you will see instances where the AR will put up the flag, but no whistle will follow. Play goes on, and if a conversation occurs between the two officials to discuss and confirm one way or the other.
 
Offside question from game I was at last night. Offensive player in a clear offside position scores on a play. When asked, AR says that the player was put onside by a deliberate play on the ball by the defender. In this particular case, the defender stretched out his leg in attempt to stop the pass and it hit off his foot. In your opinions, how deliberate of a play needs to occur in order for the offensive player to be deemed onside.

Spirit of full disclosure - my son was the center back on this play (although not the player who had the ball hit his foot). He was the one asking for clarification of the ruling.
Should have been offside.

The whole "deliberate play on the ball" is supposed to be in reference to a player actually trying to possess or control the ball in a specific direction (to one's self, teammate, etc.). The "deliberate play" is not a defending slide or tackle.

In the circumstance that @coolguy was mentioning about a headed attempt, this same example was used by a referee assignor/coordinator/educator to a group of coaches I was with. A headed ball should be a controllable ball, especially one that allows for a defender to be stationary and jump for a challenge. An attacking team is not supposed to be punished because a defending team is poor at controlling a ball. An attacker can still gain an unfair advantage by being in an offside position with the "new" offside application.
 
Thanks for the thoughts - @coolguy as well. :)

An attacker can still gain an unfair advantage by being in an offside position with the "new" offside application.
Our assistant coach made a heavily sarcastic comment to the ref last night after he explained their ruling on the play. He asked if this means we can just have our forward cherry pick and hope to rip a pass off one of the defenders to put him onside.
 

bucksman

Moderator
Coolguy laid out the consideration/mechanic perfectly for the deliberate play scenario.

My two cents from a REF and AR perspective on this:
-As an AR, my job is to identify the offside offense if I have reasonable belief that it was not a deliberate play by the defender. The REF will make the necessary assessment to wave down or not based on having a better holistic view of the play. If I have determined deliberate play, and don't flag for offside, but the ball goes in the net, I'm standing at attention and informing the ref of what I have.
-As a REF, if there is a deliberate play, I am being vocal and verbal with my "wave down" of an offside flag or potential offside flag.

In terms of game flow, I would rather have the AR identify the offside infraction unless it's blatantly obvious in terms of deliberate play. To me, it's easier for a REF to wave down the AR for offside. The alternative scenario just sucks: the ball to go in the net, the AR stand at attention because they are concerned that there was a potential offside during the phase of play leading to the goal that was not called; now the REF and AR will need to have conversation to assess if there was/not deliberate play, and if there was no deliberate play, the goal needs to be pulled out.
 

coolguy

Well-known member
Should have been offside.

The whole "deliberate play on the ball" is supposed to be in reference to a player actually trying to possess or control the ball in a specific direction (to one's self, teammate, etc.). The "deliberate play" is not a defending slide or tackle.

In the circumstance that @coolguy was mentioning about a headed attempt, this same example was used by a referee assignor/coordinator/educator to a group of coaches I was with. A headed ball should be a controllable ball, especially one that allows for a defender to be stationary and jump for a challenge. An attacking team is not supposed to be punished because a defending team is poor at controlling a ball. An attacker can still gain an unfair advantage by being in an offside position with the "new" offside application.
It is considered "deliberate" (by the LOTG) if the player is judged by the referee to have enough time, enough space, and control of their body.

Not trying to instigate an argument, but I would be very curious of the "assignor/coordinator/educator" that is informing coaches of what you describe regarding a head ball. If they (player) leave their feet in the attempt to head a ball and make contact with the ball, it will negate an offside infraction because the act of jumping for the ball is a deliberate play on the ball. I can assure you this was drilled in our classroom sessions during the R6 (regional referee) certification coursework.
 
It is considered "deliberate" (by the LOTG) if the player is judged by the referee to have enough time, enough space, and control of their body.

Not trying to instigate an argument, but I would be very curious of the "assignor/coordinator/educator" that is informing coaches of what you describe regarding a head ball. If they (player) leave their feet in the attempt to head a ball and make contact with the ball, it will negate an offside infraction because the act of jumping for the ball is a deliberate play on the ball. I can assure you this was drilled in our classroom sessions during the R6 (regional referee) certification coursework.
This was a college official, who has also done pro games, I would gather he knows what he's talking about. Especially since it impacted the college game before it impacted club and/or HS in the US.

One can still jump (leave their feet) but not have enough time, space, and control, and still not truly "deliberately play the ball." If it is a 50/50 ball off a punt or long aerial pass (where the challenging player isn't the one in the offside position), then odds are there is enough time, space, etc. But, if it is a shot and someone puts their head in the way last minute, that isn't enough time, space, etc.

The whole point of "deliberately playing the ball" isn't a case of just trying to disrupt a pass or shot. A deliberate play of the ball is trying to control the ball to oneself, one's teammate, or a clearance (just a few examples).

Straight from IFAB:
A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who
deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered
to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.
If it was a deliberate save, which can include a slide or challenge on a shot, then an attacker can be offside.
 
.
Top