Ask the Ref?

zebrastripes

Active member
Thanks for the replies......I'm not a conspiracy theory fan, but this official seemed to be out to get us from the tip (as we play a conference championship game tomorrow, it would have been a huge loss were one of our players ejected). I think he spent more time watching our bench in the second half than actually following the game.
I'm sure if your coach or AD thinks there is an issue with that official, they will address it with whomever assigned the game.
 

frenchy7705

New member
Player 1 on team A is fouled. 1A steps to the line to try a free throw. The ref passes 1A the ball. 1A goes through his pre-shot routine, dribbles, ball spin, etc. 1A places the ball in his left hand and does a practice follow through with the right. 1A then places the ball in his right hand and shoots the ball.

Is it legal to practice the follow through while holding the ball? All I could find is it is illegal to "fake a try".

Thanks for your help.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Player 1 on team A is fouled. 1A steps to the line to try a free throw. The ref passes 1A the ball. 1A goes through his pre-shot routine, dribbles, ball spin, etc. 1A places the ball in his left hand and does a practice follow through with the right. 1A then places the ball in his right hand and shoots the ball.

Is it legal to practice the follow through while holding the ball? All I could find is it is illegal to "fake a try".

Thanks for your help.
It is illegal for a a free thrower to intentionally fake a try. The thrower forfeits that awarded throw. All remaining throws will be attempted as merited. If this violation occurred during the final free throw following the foul, then Team B will be awarded a designated spot throw-in along the end line near the free throw lane.

The action you describe is perfectly legal as the the ball is in the left hand while he "practices" with his right.
 
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frenchy7705

New member
It is illegal for a a free thrower to intentionally fake a try. The thrower forfeits that awarded throw. All remaining throws will be attempted as merited. If this violation occurred during the final free throw following the foul, then Team B will be awarded a designated spot throw-in along the end line near the free throw lane.

The action you describe is perfectly legal as the the ball is in the left hand while he "practices" with his right.
Perfect. Thank you for the quick response. You confirmed my thinking.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Perfect. Thank you for the quick response. You confirmed my thinking.
It's also illegal for players along the free throw lane to fake stepping into the lane in order to draw a violation from their opponent. (This action, if by a player from Team B, would also be a disconcerting action for the free thrower. A substitute throw would be awarded of the attempt was unsuccessful)
 

Bertha

Member
at a game today ...

Foul shot ... defensive team entered lane early ... offensive player shoots foul shot .. he airballs it..

the ref called a double violation... both on defense for entering early and on offense for no rim contact

He then went to the alternate possession arrow

was that correct ??

I thought the offense should have got another free throw attempt because defensive violation took place first...
 

zebrastripes

Active member
at a game today ...

Foul shot ... defensive team entered lane early ... offensive player shoots foul shot .. he airballs it..

the ref called a double violation... both on defense for entering early and on offense for no rim contact

He then went to the alternate possession arrow

was that correct ??

I thought the offense should have got another free throw attempt because defensive violation took place first...
The official was correct. When the second violation is by the shooter or a player behind the three-point line, that is the correct adjudication.

If the second violation had been by an opponent in a marked lane space, you would penalize only the first violation.
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
Upper Sandusky - Mansfield Senior game last night. Buzzer clearly went off before the player let go of the ball (though it was close). Video shows that maybe the buzzer went off before the clock hit 0:00. Is the buzzer the end of the game or the clock? How could an official watch a play and the clock.....seems like that's why the buzzer is there.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Upper Sandusky - Mansfield Senior game last night. Buzzer clearly went off before the player let go of the ball (though it was close). Video shows that maybe the buzzer went off before the clock hit 0:00. Is the buzzer the end of the game or the clock? How could an official watch a play and the clock.....seems like that's why the buzzer is there.
The period ends when either a light illuminates or the signal (horn or buzzer sounds). If both are present, the light is the official determination. (see D1 Girls State Final 2008)

With regards to video, many times the audio and video are not synced up exactly which distort what happened.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
It's also illegal for players along the free throw lane to fake stepping into the lane in order to draw a violation from their opponent. (This action, if by a player from Team B, would also be a disconcerting action for the free thrower. A substitute throw would be awarded of the attempt was unsuccessful)
How about an opposing player, on the lane or just outside the area above the key starting to aggressive clap as the shooter is beginning his motion?
 

zebrastripes

Active member
How about an opposing player, on the lane or just outside the area above the key starting to aggressive clap as the shooter is beginning his motion?
Disconcertion, which is a violation.

We generally warn first for something like that unless it’s just too egregious. Same thing with defenders yelling “I got shooter” right at the last second.
 

D1nwobb

Active member
Upper Sandusky - Mansfield Senior game last night. Buzzer clearly went off before the player let go of the ball (though it was close). Video shows that maybe the buzzer went off before the clock hit 0:00. Is the buzzer the end of the game or the clock? How could an official watch a play and the clock.....seems like that's why the buzzer is there.
Unfortunately, no lights on the backboard. Watching the video several times, it sure looked/sounded like the buzzer went off early.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Unfortunately, no lights on the backboard. Watching the video several times, it sure looked/sounded like the buzzer went off early.
Absent the light, you go to the audible signal. Not much else you can do unless the officials have definite knowledge that the clock/horn malfunctioned.

And again, video and audio aren't always synced up properly. Maybe something went wrong and maybe everything was fine.
 
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JackEd

Member
The official was correct. When the second violation is by the shooter or a player behind the three-point line, that is the correct adjudication.

If the second violation had been by an opponent in a marked lane space, you would penalize only the first violation.
What is he reasoning behind this rule? I’ve never seen it that I recall. I’ve always felt knowing the history lesson behind the rule and why it’s enforced are an easy way to remember said rule.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
What is he reasoning behind this rule? I’ve never seen it that I recall. I’ve always felt knowing the history lesson behind the rule and why it’s enforced are an easy way to remember said rule.
Are you asking why the second violation committed by the shooter or one of his teammates who is situated off the free throw lane is enforced along with the first one?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I am just curious I guess as to the whole thing.
Below are the penalties and penalty administration for violations during free-throws......

Parts 1, 2, and 3 are self explanatory.....Part 4 applies to this original situation....

PENALTIES: (Section 1)

1. If the first or only violation is by the free thrower or a teammate, the ball becomes dead when the violation occurs and no point can be scored by that throw. The following out-of-bounds provisions apply if no further free throws are to be administered:

a. If the violation occurs during a free throw for a personal foul, other than intentional or flagrant, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.
b. If the violation occurs during a free throw for a technical foul, the ball is awarded to the thrower's team for a throw-in at the division line on the side of the court opposite the scorer's and timer's table.
c. If the violation occurs during a free throw for a flagrant personal foul or an intentional personal foul, the ball is awarded to the thrower's team for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the foul.

2. If the violation is by the free-thrower's opponent only:
a. If the try is successful, the goal counts and the violation is disregarded.
b. If the try is not successful, the ball becomes dead when the free throw ends, and a substitute throw must be attempted by the same free thrower under conditions the same as for the free throw for which it is substituted.

3. If there is a simultaneous violation by each team, the ball becomes dead and no point can be scored. Remaining free throws are administered or play is resumed by the team entitled to the alternating-possession throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the simultaneous violation occurred.

4. If there is a violation first by the free-thrower's opponent followed by the free thrower or a teammate:
a. If both offenders are in a marked lane-space, the second violation is ignored, as in penalty item (2).
b. If the second violation is by the free thrower or a teammate behind the free-throw line extended and/or the three-point line, both violations are penalized, as in penalty item (3).
c. If a violation by the free thrower follows distraction by an opponent, a substitute free throw must be awarded.
d. If a fake by an opponent causes the free thrower or a teammate of the free thrower to violate, only the fake is penalized.

In 4a, since both are in marked lane spaces, they are in immediate proximity to each other. Ignoring the second violation prevents the opponent from "intentionally" violating to gain an advantage.

In 4b, since the second violation is not in the immediate proximity, those along the lane line aren't likely to react to the violation. Also, the perimeters that are associated with FT violations are different. (they cannot enter on the release)

4c speaks for itself as the action by the opponent cannot hinder the thrower. (consistency with the rules regarding disconcerting acts)

4d is common sense.
 

USA70PP

Well-known member
A player is set to take a charge but ducks just before contact. The oncoming player goes over the player, lands awkwardly and is injured. Does the player ducking make the call blocking on him?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
A player is set to take a charge but ducks just before contact. The oncoming player goes over the player, lands awkwardly and is injured. Does the player ducking make the call blocking on him?
No (Rule 4-23-3e)

After legal guarding position is obtained, the guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.
 

serpico

Well-known member
1.6 seconds remaining in a game with the score tied. Team A inbounds from midcourt to a player behind the three-point line. Player turns completely around and hoists a normal-arcing shot. It’s an air ball, but his teammate gathers it and attempts a bunny that misses. The horn doesn’t sound until after the second miss hits the ground.

Lots of probably unnecessary detail there, but clearly the clock didn’t start on time. Could/would officials disallow the second shot attempt had it gone in if they determine 1.6 seconds had elapsed before it was attempted?
 

zebrastripes

Active member
1.6 seconds remaining in a game with the score tied. Team A inbounds from midcourt to a player behind the three-point line. Player turns completely around and hoists a normal-arcing shot. It’s an air ball, but his teammate gathers it and attempts a bunny that misses. The horn doesn’t sound until after the second miss hits the ground.

Lots of probably unnecessary detail there, but clearly the clock didn’t start on time. Could/would officials disallow the second shot attempt had it gone in if they determine 1.6 seconds had elapsed before it was attempted?
We are allowed to correct timing mistakes when we have “definite knowledge.”

In a situation like that all three officials, but especially the covering official opposite the table, should be keeping a mental count in their head. When it’s obvious that more than 1.6 has elapsed since the throw-in was touched, they should kill the play.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
How do three playoff referees miss this call?????
This is a reminder that this thread is for the purpose of discussing rules and mechanics.

if you want to discuss a specific play or criticize officials..... I encourage you to open a thread in the main basketball forum.
 

Dragon72

Member
A fellow official told me that AAU is requiring the use of an electronic whistle for their events later in the summer. Has anybody had any experience with them? I know the price is around $15/16.
 

zebrastripes

Active member
A fellow official told me that AAU is requiring the use of an electronic whistle for their events later in the summer. Has anybody had any experience with them? I know the price is around $15/16.
AAU is having events later this summer? That would surprise me given that EYBL canceled everything.

I have never used one and don't have a desire to. I know of an official in another state I formerly lived in who used one (he had an ailment that prevented him from using a traditional Fox 40).

If electronic whistles become the norm in basketball/football, one thing is for sure - expect to see many more inadvertent whistles.
 

Dragon72

Member
I think that most of those tournaments is to the south of us (Tennessee, etc). I live on the Kentucky/WV border of Ohio. Going to Tennessee is not much different then going to Cleveland/Toledo for us.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
We not only use a whistle to signify that a foul or violation has occurred, we use our whistles as a communication tool as well.....

I hope this thing goes by the way of the pet rock.
 

Dragon72

Member
I agree with you but as you know, we aren't exactly in control of what NFHS and OHSAA decide (and in this age - The Governor and Health Dept.) If scrimmages are allowed later in the summer, we may have to use these.
 

oxat622

Well-known member
A1 passes to A2. A2 catches the pass while airborne and throws it to the floor inbounds before landing out of bounds. A2 then comes back inbounds and is the first to touch the ball.

1) Is this an out of bounds violation? Does A2 need to establish two feet inbounds to be considered inbounds?
2) If not, did A2's throwing the ball to the floor count as beginning a dribble?
3) If it does count as beginning a dribble, if A2 touches the ball with two hands, dribble's over, right? Else if A2 bats the ball to the floor with one hand, he may continue dribbling, right?
 
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