Ask the Ref?

AllSports12

Moderator
What is the ruling if upon shooting free throws, the ball becomes wedged between the backboard and rim in the following situations?

1) shooter shoots the first of multiple free throws on a common foul

2) shooter shoots the final free throw on a common foul

3) shooter shoots any free throws on a technical, intentional, or flagrant foul
#1 -- It's simply a missed shot. Shoot the remaining Free Throws as merited
#2 -- Ball is put into play for a Designated Spot Throw-In along the end line by using the Alternating Possession Arrow
#3 -- If the first of the Free Throws, it's a missed shot and the following Free Throws are attempted. If the last of the Free Throws, it's a missed shot and the ball is put back into play at the appropriate designated spot for a Throw-In by the offended team. (division line opposite the scorer's table for a technical foul or the spot nearest to where the Intentional or Flagrant Foul occurred
 

Talk some sense

Active member
What is the ruling if upon shooting free throws, the ball becomes wedged between the backboard and rim in the following situations?

1) shooter shoots the first of multiple free throws on a common foul

2) shooter shoots the final free throw on a common foul

3) shooter shoots any free throws on a technical, intentional, or flagrant foul
Is this even physically possible, especially with a properly inflated ball from the free throw line?
 

Indian1961

New member
Player on Team A is awarded two fouls shots. After the first shot the referee signals one shot remaining and as the ball is bounced passed to the shooter two player on Team B cross the lane to switch spots. The shooter has the ball before the switch is completed. The referee asked for the ball back and allowed the reset. Should the shot of taken place and if missed awarded a repeat shot for the violation?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Player on Team A is awarded two fouls shots. After the first shot the referee signals one shot remaining and as the ball is bounced passed to the shooter two player on Team B cross the lane to switch spots. The shooter has the ball before the switch is completed. The referee asked for the ball back and allowed the reset. Should the shot of taken place and if missed awarded a repeat shot for the violation?
There are times when the official is a bit premature in making the ball available to the thrower. In instances such as those, it is proper for the official to ask for the ball and allow the teams to re-set.
 

CasualFan24

Active member
Just looking for an officials perspective on traveling in a game, and what should or should not be called. Anyone who has watched an ounce of girls basketball knows that a lot of girls do the 1-2 step into outside shots. More times than not, this is not called for traveling. Now in the boys game we are seeing the step back or even side step shot. As a fan when I see this, I don't think it should be called traveling because its an acceptable basketball move (can't watch a game on tv without seeing these types of moves). But by rule, are not all of these situations traveling? I think a quick talking referee would say that the first step on all of these situations was the ending of the dibble, and the 2nd step is establishing of the pivot foot. But what if they weren't dribbling to begin with? And why are any of these 2 step jumps shots any different than a layup where a player takes 2 steps down the lane prior to a shot?
 

zebrastripes

Active member
Just looking for an officials perspective on traveling in a game, and what should or should not be called. Anyone who has watched an ounce of girls basketball knows that a lot of girls do the 1-2 step into outside shots. More times than not, this is not called for traveling. Now in the boys game we are seeing the step back or even side step shot. As a fan when I see this, I don't think it should be called traveling because its an acceptable basketball move (can't watch a game on tv without seeing these types of moves). But by rule, are not all of these situations traveling? I think a quick talking referee would say that the first step on all of these situations was the ending of the dibble, and the 2nd step is establishing of the pivot foot. But what if they weren't dribbling to begin with? And why are any of these 2 step jumps shots any different than a layup where a player takes 2 steps down the lane prior to a shot?
Traveling is a call you don't want to make unless you are 100 percent sure.

Collectively as officials we miss a lot of "technical" travels because in many situations we would simply be guessing - something you don't want to get in the habit of as an official.

Did the dribble end?
Did the player catch the pass while airborne or with a foot on the ground?
Which foot is the pivot?
Did the player's feet hit simultaneously on the jump stop?
Is the player actually in control of and holding the ball?

All of this has to be determined on top of watching for illegal contact and other violations. Players today are quicker and more skilled and the benefit of the doubt is going to rest with them regarding their footwork.

Contrary to popular belief, we can't call something a travel "because it looked funny."
 

AllSports12

Moderator
As Zebra indicated in his post, to correctly judge that traveling has or has not occurred we first have to determine whether or not a pivot foot has been established, to do that first have to determine...

- Did the player catch the ball with both feet on the floor? If so, a player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.

- Did the player catch the ball while moving or dribbling? If so, he may establish the pivot foot by determining....
If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

After making one of the prior determinations, which establishes a pivot foot, we now have to apply the following....

- After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.

- After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.


- A player holding the ball:
a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.
b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

Many times this has to be determnined in a split second, with a defender or multiple defenders involved, which requires us to judge if legal guarding position has been established (which includes a additional myriad of factors)...... "easy" to call from the stands (not really) because if you are wrong, so what?


As a fan when I see this, I don't think it should be called traveling because its an acceptable basketball move (can't watch a game on tv without seeing these types of moves).
Welcome to our world...... People watch TV and see something or hear an announcer (worse than believing a rumor posted on the internet) describe something that happens and believe it to be legal. They then direct their expertise learned from what they heard towards us and everyone around believes it.

And again, it's the reason why we discuss rules and mechanics, rather than (typically) specific plays on here.
 

PAC_Champ

New member
One that I've seen refs miss 3 or 4 times this year- Kids catch, then realize they're not behind the three point line, and take two steps back, no dribble and after the catch. The refs just continue to freeze and don't call the travel
 

AllSports12

Moderator
One that I've seen refs miss 3 or 4 times this year- Kids catch, then realize they're not behind the three point line, and take two steps back, no dribble and after the catch. The refs just continue to freeze and don't call the travel
There has never been a game when an official has not made a mistake in judgment......

That goes for the fans as well.
 
I was at a game recently and the school had adjustable backboards to adjust the heights to use for youth leagues. For the varsity boys game one of the rims has about 3 inches below the normal height of 10 feet. The school said the adjustment mechanism wasn't working right and they couldn't get the hoop up to ten feet. As a referee, what do you do in this case? Play the game as is or do you postpone game until the correct height can be maintained?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I was at a game recently and the school had adjustable backboards to adjust the heights to use for youth leagues. For the varsity boys game one of the rims has about 3 inches below the normal height of 10 feet. The school said the adjustment mechanism wasn't working right and they couldn't get the hoop up to ten feet. As a referee, what do you do in this case? Play the game as is or do you postpone game until the correct height can be maintained?
Game doesn't start until the matter is resolved.
 

Red14

Well-known member
Game doesn't start until the matter is resolved.
on that same vein, what about rims that are unusually flimsy due to dunking. Is there any regulations on how poor of condition the baskets may be in? Can an official delay or cancel a game for something like this?
 

CasualFan24

Active member
One that I've seen refs miss 3 or 4 times this year- Kids catch, then realize they're not behind the three point line, and take two steps back, no dribble and after the catch. The refs just continue to freeze and don't call the travel
This is the kind of James Harden-like step back I was referring to earlier - I don't know for sure that this even is traveling though? Why are the two steps in this scenario different from the player who catches a pass on a cut into the lane and take 2 steps on a layup without dribbling? Neither are dribbling, thus the first step taken would be establishing a pivot foot, then when the 2nd step comes down it SHOULD be traveling - but you would NEVER see that called on the cut/lay up situation...so I don't think it should be called on the step back shot either...?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
on that same vein, what about rims that are unusually flimsy due to dunking. Is there any regulations on how poor of condition the baskets may be in? Can an official delay or cancel a game for something like this?
Anytime the equipment is judged to be substandard, the officials should delay/suspend the game until the matter is resolved. A break away rim that is "unusually flimsy" is an indication of further issues with the device...... and now safety becomes an issue.

The rule book specifies the requirements for the tension setting of the rims and as well as the maximum rotation of the breakaway rim when released (no more than 30 degrees).

The schools are strongly advised to routinely test and adjust their equipment to ensure safety of the kids and compliance with the rules.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
This is the kind of James Harden-like step back I was referring to earlier - I don't know for sure that this even is traveling though? Why are the two steps in this scenario different from the player who catches a pass on a cut into the lane and take 2 steps on a layup without dribbling? Neither are dribbling, thus the first step taken would be establishing a pivot foot, then when the 2nd step comes down it SHOULD be traveling - but you would NEVER see that called on the cut/lay up situation...so I don't think it should be called on the step back shot either...?

Harden's move is easy to detect as the action leading up to the establishment of the pivot foot is much slower than what occurs during a bust-out at the rim.

When you slow the video of that action at the rim, the vast majority of the time the move is not a traveling violation, as you will then clearly see when the player ends his dribble and establishes his pivot foot.
 

CasualFan24

Active member
Harden's move is easy to detect as the action leading up to the establishment of the pivot foot is much slower than what occurs during a bust-out at the rim.

When you slow the video of that action at the rim, the vast majority of the time the move is not a traveling violation, as you will then clearly see when the player ends his dribble and establishes his pivot foot.
I was referring to a player on a cut, usually off a screen, that catches the pass coming down the lane and does not dribble before releasing for a shot
 

PAC_Champ

New member
I was referring to a player on a cut, usually off a screen, that catches the pass coming down the lane and does not dribble before releasing for a shot
True, never though of it like that. I would like to know if a part of that is whether they're advancing to the hoop or not. I doubt it, but I have no idea.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I was referring to a player on a cut, usually off a screen, that catches the pass coming down the lane and does not dribble before releasing for a shot
And we have to determine where his/her feet are when he catches the ball...... we do that by applying the following rule....

If the ball is caught with one foot on the floor, that foot is the pivot foot. The play may then lift the pivot foot and step with the other. The player then must pass or shoot before the pivot foot returns to the floor.

If the ball is caught with both feet off the floor, the first foot returning to the floor is the pivot foot and the player may proceed as noted above.

We get less than 1/2 of a second to see that, process that, and rule on it.


Typically what gets people here is the speed and distance gained of the action creates the illusion that the player traveled. In officiating circles we call that a "looks funny" situation. When something looks funny, 95% of the time it's benign.
 

Malabar10

Member
Last night in the Shelby/Mansfield Senior game, the second OT started with the possession arrow instead of a jump ball. I thought all OT periods start with a jump ball. The referee stated that only the first OT is a jump ball. Who's correct??
 

zebrastripes

Active member
Last night in the Shelby/Mansfield Senior game, the second OT started with the possession arrow instead of a jump ball. I thought all OT periods start with a jump ball. The referee stated that only the first OT is a jump ball. Who's correct??
Not the referee.
 
Is it common for a referee to threaten a team with a technical foul for having a player with an untucked shirt while on the bench?
 
It’s not common because it’s not a rule
Really!!? happened last night to our team on the road in a non-conference game. Same ref also called a 2 other technicals on our team, one for hanging on the rim to avoid injury, one for expressing frustration after being fouled (no call), player said "wow". Coach had taken both of these players out later in game(up by 25, their night was done) and were on bench and ref then came over to our coach and told them if those players didn't tuck their jerseys back in he would call technical
 

CedarBuck92

Active member
Is it common for a referee to threaten a team with a technical foul for having a player with an untucked shirt while on the bench?
I remember going to a tournament game where the ref was very very concerned with shirts being tucked in, shorts not being rolled, and other things. A kid got a technical for untucking his shirt as he went to sit on the bench.
 

zebrastripes

Active member
I remember going to a tournament game where the ref was very very concerned with shirts being tucked in, shorts not being rolled, and other things. A kid got a technical for untucking his shirt as he went to sit on the bench.
“Removing the jersey and/or pants/skirt within the visual confines of the playing area” is a technical foul. Simply untucking a jersey is a big fat nothing unless you rule it unsporting in some way.

Unfortunately there are a select few officials that seem to strive to be OOOs (overly officious officials)–not a desirable reputation and not the type of official coaches want to see and other officials want as their partner.
 
Thanks for the replies......I'm not a conspiracy theory fan, but this official seemed to be out to get us from the tip (as we play a conference championship game tomorrow, it would have been a huge loss were one of our players ejected). I think he spent more time watching our bench in the second half than actually following the game.
 
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