Ask the Ref?

zebrastripes

Active member
If the head coach gets T'd up, do all of the coaches have to stay seated?
The head coach is the only one who ever has coaching box privileges. Once any technical foul is assessed to the head coach or bench personnel, the box is lost for the entirety of the game, even if the head coach is ejected and an assistant who hasn’t gotten a T has to take over.
 

coltfan76

Active member
The head coach is the only one who ever has coaching box privileges. Once any technical foul is assessed to the head coach or bench personnel, the box is lost for the entirety of the game, even if the head coach is ejected and an assistant who hasn’t gotten a T has to take over.
Thanks.
 

mcm.1019

Active member
Boxing out on a FT shot...is there any rule prohibiting the bottom guy in the lane from checking his guy out in a face-to-face manner? So rather than stepping up into the lane and getting your butt into the opponent's thigh and riding him out, is it ok to kind of face the opponent and "block" him?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Boxing out on a FT shot...is there any rule prohibiting the bottom guy in the lane from checking his guy out in a face-to-face manner? So rather than stepping up into the lane and getting your butt into the opponent's thigh and riding him out, is it ok to kind of face the opponent and "block" him?
This isn’t illegal......

However, it is illogical. ;)
 

mcm.1019

Active member
Well, I didn't say it was logical, lol. I coach a MS team that doesn't have much size and we sometimes struggle boxing out bigger kids on FTs. So the 8th grade coach suggested this method (he said girls teams sometimes go that route). He's a varsity official and said he would never call a foul for using this method. But at our game last night the official pulled me aside afterwards and said it's not allowed, and would have to call it in the future. I asked if it was specifically in the rule book and he said yes, which I kind of doubted when I asked him. So I told him our reason, explained that my fellow coach is also an official and that he was the one who actually suggested it. He again told me that it's not allowed.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Well, I didn't say it was logical, lol. I coach a MS team that doesn't have much size and we sometimes struggle boxing out bigger kids on FTs. So the 8th grade coach suggested this method (he said girls teams sometimes go that route). He's a varsity official and said he would never call a foul for using this method. But at our game last night the official pulled me aside afterwards and said it's not allowed, and would have to call it in the future. I asked if it was specifically in the rule book and he said yes, which I kind of doubted when I asked him. So I told him our reason, explained that my fellow coach is also an official and that he was the one who actually suggested it. He again told me that it's not allowed.
Ask him to cite the exact rule that prohibits this. ( rule number, section, and article)

(Impossible for him to do)

and BTW, size has nothing to do with boxing out. While it does not guarantee a rebound will be secured, it does put the opponent in a position to displace her/his opponent, which is a foul....

( and remember, “taller”, is not a foul. :) )
 
Last edited:

frenchy7705

New member
Quick question...

Player A is on defense and is in a legal guarding position. Player B is on offense and driving down the lane at Player A. Player A NEVER moves his feet or leans side to side. However, Player A slightly leans backwards before Player B initiates contact.

Referee rules a blocking foul on Player A because he began to lean backward before contact occurred. The explanation was once Player A leaned back he was no longer in legal guarding position. Is that the correct interpretation of the rule?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Quick question...

Player A is on defense and is in a legal guarding position. Player B is on offense and driving down the lane at Player A. Player A NEVER moves his feet or leans side to side. However, Player A slightly leans backwards before Player B initiates contact.

Referee rules a blocking foul on Player A because he began to lean backward before contact occurred. The explanation was once Player A leaned back he was no longer in legal guarding position. Is that the correct interpretation of the rule?
No

In fact, the rules and interpretations specifically allow this movement to occur.
 

D4fan

Well-known member
A player with 4 fouls picks up his fifth foul. Upon leaving the court he demonstrates unsportsmanlike conduct to the level that an additional technical foul is assessed. Since the player has already been disqualified, who is credited with the technical?

Is a player who is disqualified from a game capable of having a technical called on them?
 

zebrastripes

Active member
A player with 4 fouls picks up his fifth foul. Upon leaving the court he demonstrates unsportsmanlike conduct to the level that an additional technical foul is assessed. Since the player has already been disqualified, who is credited with the technical?

Is a player who is disqualified from a game capable of having a technical called on them?
Note that a team member is not officially disqualified until the head coach is notified by an official. This is important because the timing of when the technical foul occurs in relation to that notification determines whether the coach is indirectly charged with that technical foul.

The team member is still “credited” with the technical foul, regardless of whether it’s his sixth foul or not (but if it’s his second technical, he’ll be reported to the OHSAA).

If the technical foul occurs before the coach is notified of the disqualification, it’s simply treated like any other technical foul on a player. However if the technical foul occurs after the coach is notified, that team member is now bench personnel and thus the coach would be indirectly charged with a technical foul and would lose coaching box privileges.
 

Zunardo

Well-known member
If the technical foul occurs before the coach is notified of the disqualification, it’s simply treated like any other technical foul on a player. However if the technical foul occurs after the coach is notified, that team member is now bench personnel and thus the coach would be indirectly charged with a technical foul and would lose coaching box privileges.
Ah, THAT explains a similar (and confusing) situation I saw recently. A player whistled for a 4th foul while defending a shot, then said something in frustration, and got T'd up. Watched ref glance at the table, then went to the bench and say, "that's five, Coach. Need a sub." And then the same player (still on the court) loses it and says a few more choice words. Bam! Another technical.

I heard the official say "indirect technical on the bench", and I thought, "Well, the second one must have been for an assistant coach, and he didn't hear the player - but he called it when the player mouthed off the second time??"

All this transpired pretty quickly. Now it makes sense.
 

usfldan

Member
Any player that has been substituted for cannot re-enter the game until the clock has properly started. The term we use is "must sit a tick". In this situation A6 could come in for A5 and shoot the first FT and then A7 then could come in and shoot the second FT for A6..... and THEN A8 could come in and handle the throw in for A7.... A's 5, 6 & 7 now cannot return until the clock has properly started.
This was my understanding of the rule ("must sit a tick"), but I’m 0-for-2 in seeing it happen that way this year:

Scenario 1: Player A1 commits a foul, his third and the team's eighth, resulting in a one-and-one. There is a player already at the table (A6) who goes in for the guy who just got his third foul (A1). As Team B is making the first free throw, the coach says he wanted A1 to stay in the game and a different player (A2) to come out, so he sends A1 back to the table. Before the second free throw, the officials have a discussion and allow A1 to come back in for A2.

Scenario 2: Player A1 has two fouls at the end of the first half, so his team is doing offense/defense substitutions. Team A throws the ball out of bounds with 9.8 seconds remaining in the half, and Player A6 comes in for Player A1. Team B attempts to inbound the ball, but it goes out of bounds without touching anyone. Player A1 comes back to the table to check in with 9.8 seconds still remaining, and Team A inbounding the ball at the same spot Team B just had it. Again there is a discussion and they let A1 back in the game.


My understanding is that Player A1 should not have been allowed back into the game in either scenario because no time ran off in either one, but in both cases the player was allowed back in. Is there something I am missing in either scenario?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
This was my understanding of the rule ("must sit a tick"), but I’m 0-for-2 in seeing it happen that way this year:

Scenario 1: Player A1 commits a foul, his third and the team's eighth, resulting in a one-and-one. There is a player already at the table (A6) who goes in for the guy who just got his third foul (A1). As Team B is making the first free throw, the coach says he wanted A1 to stay in the game and a different player (A2) to come out, so he sends A1 back to the table. Before the second free throw, the officials have a discussion and allow A1 to come back in for A2.

Scenario 2: Player A1 has two fouls at the end of the first half, so his team is doing offense/defense substitutions. Team A throws the ball out of bounds with 9.8 seconds remaining in the half, and Player A6 comes in for Player A1. Team B attempts to inbound the ball, but it goes out of bounds without touching anyone. Player A1 comes back to the table to check in with 9.8 seconds still remaining, and Team A inbounding the ball at the same spot Team B just had it. Again there is a discussion and they let A1 back in the game.


My understanding is that Player A1 should not have been allowed back into the game in either scenario because no time ran off in either one, but in both cases the player was allowed back in. Is there something I am missing in either scenario?
Your assessment is spot on.

The officials incorrectly allowed A1 back in the game on both situations.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Can/Should an official tell the other: "No, that is my call" and overturn the call?

Official on outside called a player out of bounds (it was quite clear, player body language even told you as much) but the official down on the baseline stated "No, that is my call" and overturn it?

I know his next statement is not anywhere in the rule book as he told the kid with the ball to "Play on, keep playing" and once everyone objected he stopped play and had them inbounds the ball. It was like a scene from a pickup game, but i digress!
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Can/Should an official tell the other: "No, that is my call" and overturn the call?

Official on outside called a player out of bounds (it was quite clear, player body language even told you as much) but the official down on the baseline stated "No, that is my call" and overturn it?

I know his next statement is not anywhere in the rule book as he told the kid with the ball to "Play on, keep playing" and once everyone objected he stopped play and had them inbounds the ball. It was like a scene from a pickup game, but i digress!
Whoa..... Not good....

No official has the authority to overrule another official's decision. however, officials can provide information to a partner(s) that may cause that official to change their call....... For example, during a rebound of an unsuccessful field goal attempt, the ball is batted multiple times and ends up going out of bounds underneath the basket. The Lead Official (standing along the end line) has the responsibility for makings calls along that line. He sees 52 White bat the ball towards and out of bounds, however he does not see 42 Blue touch the ball before it touches out of bounds. The Center Official sees this touch and immediately goes to the Lead Official to inform in that 42 Blue last touched the ball. It is now up to that Lead Official to either change the call or stay with his original call.... The Center Official should never come in and "change the call" him/herself....

In your situation, the Trail Official has no business declaring the player out of bounds along the end line. The Lead Official is within his responsibility to advise not only the Trail Official, but both coaches that the player was clearly in bounds and award the ball to the team in possession. The Lead Official is not within his responsibility to tell the players to "keep playing".

This sounds like we have an opportunity for a couple of officials to review their mechanics training.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Whoa..... Not good....

No official has the authority to overrule another official's decision. however, officials can provide information to a partner(s) that may cause that official to change their call....... For example, during a rebound of an unsuccessful field goal attempt, the ball is batted multiple times and ends up going out of bounds underneath the basket. The Lead Official (standing along the end line) has the responsibility for makings calls along that line. He sees 52 White bat the ball towards and out of bounds, however he does not see 42 Blue touch the ball before it touches out of bounds. The Center Official sees this touch and immediately goes to the Lead Official to inform in that 42 Blue last touched the ball. It is now up to that Lead Official to either change the call or stay with his original call.... The Center Official should never come in and "change the call" him/herself....

In your situation, the Trail Official has no business declaring the player out of bounds along the end line. The Lead Official is within his responsibility to advise not only the Trail Official, but both coaches that the player was clearly in bounds and award the ball to the team in possession. The Lead Official is not within his responsibility to tell the players to "keep playing".

This sounds like we have an opportunity for a couple of officials to review their mechanics training.
My apologies as I was unclear. The out of bounds was not on the end line, it was on the sideline right in front of the bench near the scorers table. The trail official (young guy) easily saw it and blew the whistle, then the old crusty lead official (on the baseline, closer to the lane than the sideline )declared what I said the original post. I knew the "keep playing" (hell, the wife even knew that was janky) was wrong and just threw that gem in to possibly give a little fabric on the professionalism of the officials.

I have seen officials gather and change calls, and I have no problems with that if they discuss something and one believes he saw it more clearly, but I had never seen one yell across the court that it was his call and was overruled it (and keep playing ha ha ha)
 

rossford_resident

Active member
No, because he is not by definition bench personnel.

But he also can't stand in the corner and berate officials.
More curious about the rules re: who's regarded as bench personnel than anything. The varsity coaches sit on the bench, wander around the gym, head to the concession stand, etc. during the freshmen and JV games.

I didn't hear what was said, but it must have been one of the magic words/phrases. The officials were administering free throws on the opposite end of the floor when one of them stopped play, called a technical on the varsity coach who was standing several feet behind the baseline near the locker room door, and then made a thumb motion as if to say "any more and you'll be leaving the gym early tonight." The same crew worked the JV game without issue, so they must have gotten the point across.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
More curious about the rules re: who's regarded as bench personnel than anything. The varsity coaches sit on the bench, wander around the gym, head to the concession stand, etc. during the freshmen and JV games.

I didn't hear what was said, but it must have been one of the magic words/phrases. The officials were administering free throws on the opposite end of the floor when one of them stopped play, called a technical on the varsity coach who was standing several feet behind the baseline near the locker room door, and then made a thumb motion as if to say "any more and you'll be leaving the gym early tonight." The same crew worked the JV game without issue, so they must have gotten the point across.
Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s) ... this pertains to the game at hand and they are not permitted to leave the bench area for an unauthorized reason......

Now with regards to the Varsity Coach.... yes, they at times start on the bench and wonder around or they wonder around and then sit on the bench..... they get, by the nature of their position, a whole bunch of leeway (we permit them to leave the bench area) ...... they cannot, regardless of their location in the gym, berate officials.

Let's give the Varsity Coach three options here...... 1) Go back to the bench area and sit down and be quiet 2) Stand there and be quiet 3) Be directed to leave the gym for the evening
 

zebrastripes

Active member
Some varsity coaches are known to try and circumvent bench personnel rules during subvarsity games by participating in coaching the team and berating the officials but not actually sitting on the bench. They think they are smart and if the officials get involved they'll try the "I'm not on the bench, you can't do anything" line.

I would inform the subvarsity head coach that "If he's an assistant coach for you, he needs to be on the bench and behave. If he's not, he is not to participate in coaching your team at all." They don't get to help coach the subvarsity team while also circumventing the rules for conduct.

And if I'm one of the varsity officials and I see the varsity coach acting like a clown during a subvarsity game, he is getting ZERO leeway during the varsity game.

(By the way, if a varsity head coach is an assistant for lower levels and he is ejected from the subvarsity game, he isn't allowed to coach the varsity game that night.)
 

Blue Jay Fan

Well-known member
Question: at Friday's JV game the officials had the team inbound the ball on the baseline to START the second quarter. Isn't it supposed to be at halfcourt?
Also, on a foul on the baseline, almost under the basket, they inbounded the ball at halfcourt. Was that correct?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Question: at Friday's JV game the officials had the team inbound the ball on the baseline to START the second quarter. Isn't it supposed to be at halfcourt?
The start of the second, third, and fourth periods are always executed with a throw-in at the division line opposite the scorer's table.

Also, on a foul on the baseline, almost under the basket, they inbounded the ball at halfcourt. Was that correct?
The throw-in spot after any foul, other than a technical foul, is located at the spot out of bounds nearest to where the foul was located.
 

Blue Jay Fan

Well-known member
The start of the second, third, and fourth periods are always executed with a throw-in at the division line opposite the scorer's table.

The throw-in spot after any foul, other than a technical foul, is located at the spot out of bounds nearest to where the foul was located.
Thanks. That's what I thought.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Was this a two person crew?
Was the boundary line that was violated on the same side as the Trail Official ?
Two man crew.
Lead official on the baseline was positioned at the edge of the lane closer to the sideline in question.
Trail official was around 25 feel from the hooop positioned on the edge of the other side of the lane. Out of bounds was near scorers table. Trail official clearly had the better angle/view and was closer (and correct in the call) but the lead official reversed the call, stating what I said earlier, and told them to 'play on'!!!!!
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Two man crew.
Lead official on the baseline was positioned at the edge of the lane closer to the sideline in question.
Trail official was around 25 feel from the hooop positioned on the edge of the other side of the lane. Out of bounds was near scorers table. Trail official clearly had the better angle/view and was closer (and correct in the call) but the lead official reversed the call, stating what I said earlier, and told them to 'play on'!!!!!
That line is the Lead's responsibility. He has end line and the sideline on the side of the floor he's on.
The Trail has the division line and the sideline he's positioned next to.

The whistle belongs to the Lead, even if the ball is OOB at the division line. He should be moving laterally along the end line as the ball moves to the sideline so he can get this when it happens........ many times because of the location 40 feet from him he will look briefly at the Trail for a signal or ask "Help"... then the trail will provide input and the Lead will still make the call


That said, even with the Trail stepping outside is primary responsibility for the call, the Lead Official was unprofessional in his actions. He should have calmly got together with his partner, reminded him of who has that boundary line, ask him what he saw, tell him what he saw, and then either affirm the call, or change the call.
 

rossford_resident

Active member
Some varsity coaches are known to try and circumvent bench personnel rules during subvarsity games by participating in coaching the team and berating the officials but not actually sitting on the bench. They think they are smart and if the officials get involved they'll try the "I'm not on the bench, you can't do anything" line.

I would inform the subvarsity head coach that "If he's an assistant coach for you, he needs to be on the bench and behave. If he's not, he is not to participate in coaching your team at all." They don't get to help coach the subvarsity team while also circumventing the rules for conduct.

And if I'm one of the varsity officials and I see the varsity coach acting like a clown during a subvarsity game, he is getting ZERO leeway during the varsity game.

(By the way, if a varsity head coach is an assistant for lower levels and he is ejected from the subvarsity game, he isn't allowed to coach the varsity game that night.)
Yeah. That makes sense.

No "berating" in this instance - one call that the home fans were up in arms about. Varsity coach was 20-30 feet from the baseline and absolutely not involved in coaching the team. The call was on the opposite baseline, so however he felt about the official's view - his was 80 feet worse.

Same crew had the JV and Freshmen games the night before where the opposing coach was doing exactly what you describe: standing behind the bench and heavily involved. Maybe they'd had enough on Friday night that they decided to nip it in the bud on Saturday. Maybe he said something off George Carlin's list. Who knows.
 
.
Top