Ask the Ref?

Indian1961

New member
No, because he is not by definition bench personnel.

But he also can't stand in the corner and berate officials.
If he stood in the corner he might of been okay. He walk over to stand near the basket because he knew the official would be working the baseline. I saw that technical coming a mile away.
 

oxat622

Well-known member
A player is on the floor clearly injured while the ball is in play. In what situations do you play on and at what point do you stop the game to tend to the player, other than a dead ball?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
A player is on the floor clearly injured while the ball is in play. In what situations do you play on and at what point do you stop the game to tend to the player, other than a dead ball?
Rule 5-8-2 addresses this specifically....

"NOTE: When a player is injured as in Art. 2(a), the official may suspend play after the ball is dead or is in control of the injured player’s team or when the opponents complete a play. A play is completed when a team loses control (including throwing for goal) or withholds the ball from play by ceasing to attempt to score or advance the ball to a scoring position. When necessary to protect an injured player, the official may immediately stop play."

In short, if the player's well being is immediately in peril, we are going to kill the play regardless of where the ball is and what is about to happen. If not (official's judgment) then as the rule dictates, we allow the immediate play to be completed and then will stop the play when that action ceases.....

Examples..... (not limited to)

Player is knocked unconscious. Play will be blown dead
Player suffers an obvious fracture/dislocation of an arm, leg..... Play will be blown dead

Player rolls his ankle and is rolling on the floor in pain, poked in the eye, or just comes up limping... and the ball is going the other way on a fast break..... Play continues
During the fast break opportunity noted above, the point guard pulls the ball out and no longer seeks to have his team attack the basket.... Play will be blown dead as that immediate play (the fast break) has ended..

Hope that helps....
 

oxat622

Well-known member
Thanks. Not totally the same but I was working a girls rec game this year when a player, not paying attention, took a high speed pass to the face. She stopped playing ans started crying but stayed on her feet. The coach went wild when we didn't stop play, and I had to explain that standing and crying is not an injury.
 

thePITman

Well-known member
When inbounding the ball after a made shot (and thus you have the whole baseline), you can pass to a teammate out of bounds who can then pass it in.

When inbounding with a "spot" and you have that 4-foot window (or whatever it is), if a teammate comes into that window (as long as 1 foot is in or over the imaginary window), can you hand the ball to him, and then have him pass it in? In other words, is it legal to change the inbounder for a spot-inbound?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
When inbounding the ball after a made shot (and thus you have the whole baseline), you can pass to a teammate out of bounds who can then pass it in.

When inbounding with a "spot" and you have that 4-foot window (or whatever it is), if a teammate comes into that window (as long as 1 foot is in or over the imaginary window), can you hand the ball to him, and then have him pass it in? In other words, is it legal to change the inbounder for a spot-inbound?
The Designated Spot is 3-feet wide and the thrower must have one foot over that spot. (effectively giving that thrower a couple more feet to either side of that spot)

There is only one thrower on a Designated Spot throw-in. A throw-in violation has occurred in the situation you present above.
 
A foul occurs on B during a shot - two team A players #20 and #31 are both in the vicinity of the foul. Official signals that the foul is on A #31. Teams proceed to line up for free throws. Before the free throws the official was asked again by the table and another official who the foul was on. He indicates A #31. Free throws are shot, play continues. Several minutes run off the clock and there is a time out. During the time out the officials come over to tell team A that the previous foul has now been charged to A#20. What rules exist in regards to changing who a foul was called on?
Obviously #20 played several minutes thinking he had one less foul and #31 played several minutes thinking he had one additional foul.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
A foul occurs on B during a shot - two team A players #20 and #31 are both in the vicinity of the foul. Official signals that the foul is on A #31. Teams proceed to line up for free throws. Before the free throws the official was asked again by the table and another official who the foul was on. He indicates A #31. Free throws are shot, play continues. Several minutes run off the clock and there is a time out. During the time out the officials come over to tell team A that the previous foul has now been charged to A#20. What rules exist in regards to changing who a foul was called on?
Obviously #20 played several minutes thinking he had one less foul and #31 played several minutes thinking he had one additional foul.
There is no specific rule to cite, however, as long as the officials are 100% sure that they reported the foul incorrectly, they can fix that mistake at any time until their jurisdiction ends.

This is similar to a situation when a scorer fails to credit points to a team or credits points to the wrong team. That mistake can be corrected at any time until the game ends and the officials approve the final score. (covered under Rule 2-11
 

zebrastripes

Active member
On 2nd free throw, shooter air balls it and opposing team has a lane violation. Is this a jump ball?
It is considered a simultaneous violation which results in an alternating-possession throw-in, yes, and the free throw does not count.

This applies when the second violation is by the shooter or a player outside the three-point line. If both violators are in marked lane spaces, only the first team to violate is penalized.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
On 2nd free throw, shooter air balls it and opposing team has a lane violation. Is this a jump ball?
It is considered a simultaneous violation which results in an alternating-possession throw-in, yes, and the free throw does not count.

This applies when the second violation is by the shooter or a player outside the three-point line. If both violators are in marked lane spaces, only the first team to violate is penalized.
To clarify....

If the official deems the first violation by the opponent to be distracting...... (causes the violation by the thrower) then the violation by the thrower is ignored and a substitute must be awarded.

If the original violation had no bearing (in the judgment of the official) on the free throw, then we would proceed as Zebra indicated prior.
 
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FFMbuck

New member
What are the rules in regard to when an official stops play for an injured player?
Team A is ahead by 2 points and is shooting 1 foul shot with 10 seconds left in the game. Shot is missed. Team B rebounds, outlets, and is pushing the ball up the court for a potential game tying or winning shot. Just before crossing half court, the ref blows his whistle and stops play for a player from Team A who is sitting in the backcourt holding his ankle. The "injured" player limps off the floor and Team A puts in a substitute for him.
So instead of Team B running a last second 5 on 4 fast break, they now have to inbound the ball with about 8 seconds left near half court against a full defense.
Was this the correct call to stop play in that situation?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
What are the rules in regard to when an official stops play for an injured player?
Team A is ahead by 2 points and is shooting 1 foul shot with 10 seconds left in the game. Shot is missed. Team B rebounds, outlets, and is pushing the ball up the court for a potential game tying or winning shot. Just before crossing half court, the ref blows his whistle and stops play for a player from Team A who is sitting in the backcourt holding his ankle. The "injured" player limps off the floor and Team A puts in a substitute for him.
So instead of Team B running a last second 5 on 4 fast break, they now have to inbound the ball with about 8 seconds left near half court against a full defense.
Was this the correct call to stop play in that situation?
see post #723 above for the answer
 

JackEd

Member
I love that their is an Ask the Ref for basketball. I’m learning a ton, that I never claimed I even knew. I’m usually a football only person when it comes to reading scenarios on rulings/situations. Went to a game this past Tuesday as a nuetral observer(my alma Mater vs my sons future school): game tied 68-68, both teams in the double bonus. Team A with the ball and 10 seconds to go. A1 drives to the hoop, pushes off and is correctly called for the Offensive foul. Team B is going nuts. I assumed it would be two shots for Team B because of the double bonus. My buddy informed me you don’t shoot FTs on offensive fouls. I look around and everyone their, including the officials and coaches were non-chalantly setting up for a length of the court last second possession.
I’ve never paid attention obviously. Is this a rule at all levels or just NFHS? Thanks keep up the great work.
 

zebrastripes

Active member
I love that their is an Ask the Ref for basketball. I’m learning a ton, that I never claimed I even knew. I’m usually a football only person when it comes to reading scenarios on rulings/situations. Went to a game this past Tuesday as a nuetral observer(my alma Mater vs my sons future school): game tied 68-68, both teams in the double bonus. Team A with the ball and 10 seconds to go. A1 drives to the hoop, pushes off and is correctly called for the Offensive foul. Team B is going nuts. I assumed it would be two shots for Team B because of the double bonus. My buddy informed me you don’t shoot FTs on offensive fouls. I look around and everyone their, including the officials and coaches were non-chalantly setting up for a length of the court last second possession.
I’ve never paid attention obviously. Is this a rule at all levels or just NFHS? Thanks keep up the great work.
You don’t shoot FTs on offensive fouls at any level of basketball. There are some differences between the levels regarding how fouls by the offensive team during a loose ball are handled–in NFHS we would not shoot FTs for that kind of foul.

In NFHS offensive fouls are referred to as “team control fouls” and “player control fouls” We don’t shoot FTs for those fouls under any circumstances.
 

coltfan76

Active member
You don’t shoot FTs on offensive fouls at any level of basketball. There are some differences between the levels regarding how fouls by the offensive team during a loose ball are handled–in NFHS we would not shoot FTs for that kind of foul.

In NFHS offensive fouls are referred to as “team control fouls” and “player control fouls” We don’t shoot FTs for those fouls under any circumstances.
I've always wondered the reasoning behind this
 

AllSports12

Moderator
You don’t shoot FTs on offensive fouls at any level of basketball. There are some differences between the levels regarding how fouls by the offensive team during a loose ball are handled–in NFHS we would not shoot FTs for that kind of foul.

In NFHS offensive fouls are referred to as “team control fouls” and “player control fouls” We don’t shoot FTs for those fouls under any circumstances.
I've always wondered the reasoning behind this
The NFHS changed to the rule for two reasons...

1) It now created the same penalty for player control fouls (no free throws)
2) Free throws after fouls in team, but not player control were slowing down the game

Both reasons valid and the end result was a game with a better flow....
 

coltfan76

Active member
The NFHS changed to the rule for two reasons...

1) It now created the same penalty for player control fouls (no free throws)
2) Free throws after fouls in team, but not player control were slowing down the game

Both reasons valid and the end result was a game with a better flow....
But why don't they shoot free throws after a player control foul? What is the reasoning?
 

a_td

Member
Team A makes a basket and calls time out. Player #10 checks in and enters the game for #11. Team A fouls Team B player before inbounding the ball, so no time runs off the clock. Team B player to shoot Bonus. Can #11 re-enter the game right away or does he need to wait until time has come off the clock?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Team A makes a basket and calls time out. Player #10 checks in and enters the game for #11. Team A fouls Team B player before inbounding the ball, so no time runs off the clock. Team B player to shoot Bonus. Can #11 re-enter the game right away or does he need to wait until time has come off the clock?
Anytime a player leaves the game due to a substitution, he may not return until the clock has properly started.

The jargon used by officials is "must sit a tick".
 

AllSports12

Moderator
But why don't they shoot free throws after a player control foul? What is the reasoning?
Years..... many, many years ago (1961) we did.

Coaches and the Rule Committee felt that not only was the game getting bogged down with a parade to the free throw line, the loss of the ball was penalty enough.
 
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rmr1119

New member
frenchy7705 said:
Quick question...

Player A is on defense and is in a legal guarding position. Player B is on offense and driving down the lane at Player A. Player A NEVER moves his feet or leans side to side. However, Player A slightly leans backwards before Player B initiates contact.

Referee rules a blocking foul on Player A because he began to lean backward before contact occurred. The explanation was once Player A leaned back he was no longer in legal guarding position. Is that the correct interpretation of the rule?


No

In fact, the rules and interpretations specifically allow this movement to occur.
Hey AllSports, can you cite me the rule book or case book page that mentions a defender in LGP can lean backward before contact arrives and is still considered legal in terms of trying to take a charge? I took a quick look for anything and must be missing it.

Thank you.
 

zebrastripes

Active member
Hey AllSports, can you cite me the rule book or case book page that mentions a defender in LGP can lean backward before contact arrives and is still considered legal in terms of trying to take a charge? I took a quick look for anything and must be missing it.

Thank you.
I don’t have my paper books in front of me, but the rule he is referring to is Rule 4-23-3-f in the 2019-20 rules.

“After the initial legal guarding position is obtained, (f) the guard may turn or tuck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.”
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Hey AllSports, can you cite me the rule book or case book page that mentions a defender in LGP can lean backward before contact arrives and is still considered legal in terms of trying to take a charge? I took a quick look for anything and must be missing it.

Thank you.
You won't find it because it's not specifically in there. As Zebra noted 4-23-3 covers it.....

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

The rule prohibits the player from moving towards, therefore moving backwards is legal.
 

rmr1119

New member
You won't find it because it's not specifically in there. As Zebra noted 4-23-3 covers it.....

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

The rule prohibits the player from moving towards, therefore moving backwards is legal.
Turning or ducking to absorb contact and "moving" backward (or as I say retreating), I agree are all legal. However in this case the defender is stationary and leaning backward (or starting to fall) before offensive initiated contact happens. The philosophy I tend to follow here is if you want to take a charge, take it. One can't start falling before the contact arrives. Some of this "faking being fouled" is why we have the lovely "flop" signal at the NCAA level now. There are several other reasons too of course.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Turning or ducking to absorb contact and "moving" backward (or as I say retreating), I agree are all legal. However in this case the defender is stationary and leaning backward (or starting to fall) before offensive initiated contact happens. The philosophy I tend to follow here is if you want to take a charge, take it. One can't start falling before the contact arrives. Some of this "faking being fouled" is why we have the lovely "flop" signal at the NCAA level now. There are several other reasons too of course.
First, it is not illegal to "flop". Unlike the NCAA, nowhere in the NFHS Rule book is this addressed.
Next, the action of falling backwards is not in and of itself faking being fouled. In fact, in this situation the defender was indeed fouled by the player with the ball.

Finally, when officials employ their own philosophies when officiating, they end up making things up that are in direct contradiction to the written Rules, Official Interpretations and Points of Emphasis.....

Your philosophy does just that.

I already provided the written rule above, so I'll add not only the Official Interpretation but the Point of Emphasis related to guarding, both from the 2017-2018 season....

Official Interpretation

Play:
A1 begins a drive to the basket. B2 steps into A1's path, has two feet on the court while facing A1, and just before A1 reaches B2, B2 starts to fall backward. As B2 is falling backward but has not yet fallen all the way to the court, A1 dribbles through B2's torso, which knocks B2 the rest of the way to the court. Since B2 was not completely upright when the contact occurred, who shall be assessed with the foul?

Ruling: When B2 had two feet on the court and was facing A1, B2 established legal guarding position on A1. After establishing legal guarding position, there is no provision that requires a defender to remain completely upright when the offensive player initiates the contact with the defender. Although it may be easier and would be more convincing to rule a player-control foul on Al had B2 remained completely upright when the contact occurred, a player-control foul shall still be assessed to A1 for charging into legal defender B2. Rule: 4-23-2,4-23-3,10-7-7, & 10-7-9

2017-2018 Point of Emphasis

Once a defensive player obtains legal guarding position by facing an opponent with both feet of the floor inbounds, he/she may move to maintain that position in any direction except toward the offensive player being guarded when contact occurs.

Please don't tell a coach that his/her player "can't start falling before the contact arrives". It's contrary to the rule and very likely contrary to what a good coach will teach their player to do.

You can have your opinion of the rule and you can certainly disagree with how it's written and interpreted, however you cannot have your own interpretation and application of the rule.

MSU ;) officiating is bad for the game.
 
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madworld

Member
First, it is not illegal to "flop". Unlike the NCAA, nowhere in the NFHS Rule book is this addressed.
Next, the action of falling backwards is not in and of itself faking being fouled. In fact, in this situation the defender was indeed fouled by the player with the ball.

Finally, when officials employ their own philosophies when officiating, they end up making things up that are in direct contradiction to the written Rules, Official Interpretations and Points of Emphasis.....

Your philosophy does just that.

I already provided the written rule above, so I'll add not only the Official Interpretation but the Point of Emphasis related to guarding, both from the 2017-2018 season....

Official Interpretation

Play:
A1 begins a drive to the basket. B2 steps into A1's path, has two feet on the court while facing A1, and just before A1 reaches B2, B2 starts to fall backward. As B2 is falling backward but has not yet fallen all the way to the court, A1 dribbles through B2's torso, which knocks B2 the rest of the way to the court. Since B2 was not completely upright when the contact occurred, who shall be assessed with the foul?

Ruling: When B2 had two feet on the court and was facing A1, B2 established legal guarding position on A1. After establishing legal guarding position, there is no provision that requires a defender to remain completely upright when the offensive player initiates the contact with the defender. Although it may be easier and would be more convincing to rule a player-control foul on Al had B2 remained completely upright when the contact occurred, a player-control foul shall still be assessed to A1 for charging into legal defender B2. Rule: 4-23-2,4-23-3,10-7-7, & 10-7-9

2017-2018 Point of Emphasis

Once a defensive player obtains legal guarding position by facing an opponent with both feet of the floor inbounds, he/she may move to maintain that position in any direction except toward the offensive player being guarded when contact occurs.

Please don't tell a coach that his/her player "can't start falling before the contact arrives". It's contrary to the rule and very likely contrary to what a good coach will teach their player to do.

You can have your opinion of the rule and you can certainly disagree with how it's written and interpreted, however you cannot have your own interpretation and application of the rule.

MSU ;) officiating is bad for the game.
If the offensive player is airborne and in the act of shooting and the defensive player receives no contact but falls to the floor taking away a safe landing area; is there a foul or is it simply a no call and hope the players don’t get hurt?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
If the offensive player is airborne and in the act of shooting and the defensive player receives no contact but falls to the floor taking away a safe landing area; is there a foul or is it simply a no call and hope the players don’t get hurt?
If the defender established legal guarding position before the shooter left the floor, then the shooter is responsible for any contact. You could have a foul or you could have incidental contact.
 

oxat622

Well-known member
What is the ruling if upon shooting free throws, the ball becomes wedged between the backboard and rim in the following situations?

1) shooter shoots the first of multiple free throws on a common foul

2) shooter shoots the final free throw on a common foul

3) shooter shoots any free throws on a technical, intentional, or flagrant foul
 
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