Ask the Ref?

MiamiValleyFan

New member
Nope.

Did they lose the number or did they have a disagreement about which player should have been charged with the foul? Regardless, assessing a team foul with no corresponding personal foul is not remotely correct.
There was a lengthy discussion between the refs before a decision was made so not sure if they disagreed or just lost track of number. They just said they didn't know who the foul was on so they charged no one but just the team. Thanks for your insight.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Question: Team A is shooting two free throws. After the first shot Team A gets the rebound, kicks it out to a teammate for a three and makes it.
Time runs off the clock.

Do we count the bucket even though the ref said we were shooting two or stop play reset the clock and shoot the next free throw?
We need more information here....

Specifically, what action occurred after A missed the first shot?

- What did the officials do?
- What did the other A players do?
- What did the B players do?

The ruling could be very simple or it could be (to those who don't know Rule 2-10) "convoluted" or nonsensical.
Officials called the 3 good. A Team players started down the court to transition into defense.
Most of B players were still on the line while one or two jumped out to contest the 3.

In the game the officials awarded team A the 3 points because time ran off the clock and said they couldn't take off points when time ran off the clock and then allowed Team A to shoot their 2nd free throw.
Ok... one more question....

How did the officials address the players on the free throw lane before the first free throw? Did they announce "two shots" or "one and one"?
"two shots"
Wow.... what a mess......

There is a Case Book play that addresses a play similar, but not exact....

2.10.1 SITUATION G: A1 has been awarded two free throws. Erroneously, the ball is allowed to remain in play after A1 misses on the first attempt. A2 rebounds the miss and tosses the ball through the basket. B1 secures the ball and inbounds it. Play continues until a foul is ruled on A2 as B is passing the ball in B’s frontcourt.
RULING: The goal by A2 counts, but the error of not awarding A1 a second free throw is no longer correctable. Since the ball remained in play on the missed free throw, the clock started and the ball became dead when the goal was scored. When the ball became live on the subsequent throw-in, the time period for correction had expired.

In the Case Book play, Team B fully participated in the action that took place after the first shot was unsuccessful. The rule provides that we can correct an error of not awarding a merited free throw if the error is discovered before the ball becomes live after the first dead ball that occurs after the error.

In your play it seems that only "one or two" B players reacted with the others remaining along the lane.

Based on what you submitted, I'm assuming that the officials realized their mistake after the 3point basket was successful. It seems that they also determined that B fully participated in the action after that first Free Throw.... If that's what happened.... they ruled correctly.

There is a Case Book play that addresses officials giving erroneous information that puts one team at a distinct disadvantage. This didn't happen here as the officials correctly announced two shots.

Errors such as these are rare and the solutions to the lay person don't seem "fair". However, the remedies are in place for a reason and we must follow them as officials. In even more rare circumstances some officials may choose to invoke Rule 2-3, which gives the Referee the ability to rule on situations that aren't specifically covered by the rules. Some may choose to do so in this play, some may not.

Hope that helps....
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
There was a lengthy discussion between the refs before a decision was made so not sure if they disagreed or just lost track of number. They just said they didn't know who the foul was on so they charged no one but just the team. Thanks for your insight.
In the officiating world we call that someone breaking out the MSU book. (Make Stuff ;) Up)
 
Without sounding a bit strange....have noticed that whenever we travel to a certain gym the rims just seem off, super-stiff. the ball acts in some pretty strange ways when it hits. Without doing extensive research, have noticed that scores seem low there. Obviously this is not an advantage for one team over the other......is there some way to manipulate a rim to make it act this way?

and then I thought perhaps it had to do with ball inflation....prior to a game, how extensive is the process of checking the balls to ensure that they are properly inflated....is it a precise thing or is it something that depends strictly on one ref's opinion?
 

zebrastripes

Active member
Without sounding a bit strange....have noticed that whenever we travel to a certain gym the rims just seem off, super-stiff. the ball acts in some pretty strange ways when it hits. Without doing extensive research, have noticed that scores seem low there. Obviously this is not an advantage for one team over the other......is there some way to manipulate a rim to make it act this way?

and then I thought perhaps it had to do with ball inflation....prior to a game, how extensive is the process of checking the balls to ensure that they are properly inflated....is it a precise thing or is it something that depends strictly on one ref's opinion?
I am sure schools are capable of adjusting the rims to their preference, but I am not an expert on the manufacturing or installation of rims. Someone else may need to chime in.


As for proper ball inflation, the rule is...


The ball shall be inflated to an air pressure such that when it is dropped to the playing surface from a height of 6 feet, measured to the bottom of the ball, it shall rebound to a height, measured to the top of the ball, of not less than 49 inches when it strikes on its least resilient spot, nor more than 54 inches when it strikes on its most resilient spot. (NFHS 1-12-2)

This is where the “drop test” that the referee does before the game comes from.

I don’t carry a pump with me so I don’t add air to balls. If it’s clearly too flat I’ll ask the home team to get me another one. If it’s too bouncy I’ll take out a little bit of air with my needle.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
The tension on basketball rings varies from place to place. In the pre breakaway ring era, how tight the ring flange was secured to the backboard determined how tight or loose a ring was. Breakaway rings these days have an adjusting mechanism to tighten or loosen the ring.

The rules (Rule 1-11) provide for guidelines with regards to breakaway rings having the same rebound characteristics as fixed rings.
While's it's recommended that the schools have the rings tested for compliance, I highly doubt many schools have done so.

The NBA and NCAA have strict guidelines with regards to rebound elasticity, with the NCAA having very tight rings particularly during the tournament. Specific testing equipment is used to insure compliance with the guidelines.
 
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zebrastripes

Active member
I don't recall if this is in your "most understood/myths" thread. If not, it should be added.
It wasn't. I guess I assumed that since most courts where only high school basketball is played don't have an arc painted, that most people understood that there is no RA. However, that was a misplaced assumption by me. ;)

I have since edited.
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
As a fan in the stands, that is one of the frequent things that people yell about that I just shake my head. The lack of the arc should be a strong signal that it's not a rule but that doesn't stop people from yelling.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Are they any rules concerning a head coach being on the court while game is in play?
Yes

Now.... there are a ton of factors to consider before penalizing a coach for being on the court.....

- How far out?
- What's the bench set up?
- Is he/she complaining
- Is she/he asking a question?
- Is he/she requesting a time out?
- Is she/he notifying you of an injured player?

Lots to consider here.....
 
Thanks for the reply.....

8 feet or more at times ...

sometimes complaining,,, usually berating and yelling at his own players

happens quite frequently and I would think there would at least be a warning issued under these circumstances, but I think there is a bit of an intimidation factor that is created and when you get away with it for so long
 

Zunardo

Well-known member
Had a situation I've never seen before. Refs whistle ball dead on a missed shooting foul. They can't decide who the foul is on so they instruct scorekeeper to assess a team foul but do not charge an individual player with a foul .... Player was given 2 free throws for the shooting foul.
Did they lose the number or did they have a disagreement about which player should have been charged with the foul? Regardless, assessing a team foul with no corresponding personal foul is not remotely correct.
Anecdote alert - we had that situation at a juco game a few years back. Official who blew the whistle goes to the table and says, "Would you believe me if I said that foul was on Green 20?" We all shook our heads "no". He says, "Well?" Everyone holds fingers up for "11". He nodded, stepped back, then yells, "I've got 11 Green, on the wrist - we're shooting two!"

Never saw that at a high school game, but it's pretty much the same concept. It may not have been a textbook example of proper mechanics and game management, but it was just one of those moments we all took our game faces off for a minute and had a laugh. Even both coaches agreed with the final call.
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Thanks for the reply.....

8 feet or more at times ...

sometimes complaining,,, usually berating and yelling at his own players

happens quite frequently and I would think there would at least be a warning issued under these circumstances, but I think there is a bit of an intimidation factor that is created and when you get away with it for so long
If the Head Coach is 8' on the floor complaining, the Head Coach is getting whacked by me.
If the Head Coach is 8' on the floor berating his kids, the Head Coach is getting warned by me. (next time...whack)
 

JElder

Well-known member
Anecdote alert - we had that situation at a juco game a few years back. Official who blew the whistle goes to the table and says, "Would you believe me if I said that foul was on Green 20?" We all shook our heads "no". He says, "Well?" Everyone holds fingers up for "11". He nodded, stepped back, then yells, "I've got 11 Green, on the wrist - we're shooting two!"

Never saw that at a high school game, but it's pretty much the same concept. It may not have been a textbook example of proper mechanics and game management, but it was just one of those moments we all took our game faces off for a minute and had a laugh. Even both coaches agreed with the final call.
A good table is there to help in those situations. Sounds like you do your job well. Thanks!
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
Done a few scorebooks in my past and got a variety of different rulings/interpretations from different officials when they came over to sign the scorebook before the game. 2 main questions come to mind:

1. One official said just get the numbers entered correctly. He wasn't concerned about the names. Another official at another game wanted numbers AND names entered before he'd sign for that particular number of spots in the book. I had all the numbers entered but was missing 3 names b/c the head coach liked to rotate a new trio of JV players through the varsity lineup each game. The head coach hadn't emerged from the locker room at the time the official came over to sign the scorebook in order to tell me which JVs were dressing that night, but I knew which jersey numbers would be worn and had them entered. The official signed for the 11 players whose names were entered. I had to call him back over to correct it, but he scolded me for not having the names entered before he signed for the 3 additional players. My argument to the official would be that he calls fouls based on number, not name. In a nutshell, my question would be: Are the numbers alone enough to constitute a correct scorebook?

2. I used to cross out players who I may have entered beforehand who were definitely not going to play that night (ex. varsity regular who was injured or out of town). Some officials would demand that the number of players I had entered matched the number of players warming up. Other officials would say that having more players entered than are on the floor before the game is no problem. One official went as far to say that as long as I could fit the players into the book, then that was OK. Yet another official advised me to never cross a player's name out until after the game is over just in case the game is not completed that day and must be finished at a later date. Upon receiving that advice, I no longer crossed out any names until either the official demanded it or until after the game was over. My question here is: How many players should be entered in the scorebook?

3. Are there any other common errors that are made in filling out the scorebook before the game? For example, I notice some schools do not indicate which players either wear corrective lenses or require inhalers.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Done a few scorebooks in my past and got a variety of different rulings/interpretations from different officials when they came over to sign the scorebook before the game. 2 main questions come to mind:

1. One official said just get the numbers entered correctly. He wasn't concerned about the names. Another official at another game wanted numbers AND names entered before he'd sign for that particular number of spots in the book. I had all the numbers entered but was missing 3 names b/c the head coach liked to rotate a new trio of JV players through the varsity lineup each game. The head coach hadn't emerged from the locker room at the time the official came over to sign the scorebook in order to tell me which JVs were dressing that night, but I knew which jersey numbers would be worn and had them entered. The official signed for the 11 players whose names were entered. I had to call him back over to correct it, but he scolded me for not having the names entered before he signed for the 3 additional players. My argument to the official would be that he calls fouls based on number, not name. In a nutshell, my question would be: Are the numbers alone enough to constitute a correct scorebook?
Rule 10-1-1

A team must not:

Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.


PENALTY: (Art. 1) One foul for both requirements. Penalized when it occurs.


2. I used to cross out players who I may have entered beforehand who were definitely not going to play that night (ex. varsity regular who was injured or out of town). Some officials would demand that the number of players I had entered matched the number of players warming up. Other officials would say that having more players entered than are on the floor before the game is no problem. One official went as far to say that as long as I could fit the players into the book, then that was OK. Yet another official advised me to never cross a player's name out until after the game is over just in case the game is not completed that day and must be finished at a later date. Upon receiving that advice, I no longer crossed out any names until either the official demanded it or until after the game was over. My question here is: How many players should be entered in the scorebook?
See above (10-1-1)

As a preventative officiating method, you never want to have more warming up than listed in the book. That said, a player can always be added to the book, but not without penalty.

3. Are there any other common errors that are made in filling out the scorebook before the game? For example, I notice some schools do not indicate which players either wear corrective lenses or require inhalers.
Not required to list contact or inhalers.... The contact lens angle is an old school mind set that a team will delay a game because "someone lost a contact".... those days are long gone and any official who requires that or asks for that is referred to as an "OOO" (overly officius official).... not a tag that most officials strive for.

As far as pregame errors.... they are rare, but many times they result from a scorer entering names and numbers from the game program instead of from a list provided directly from the coach....
 

thavoice

Well-known member
When does it become a violation of too many players on the court for a team?

When the ball is inbounded for play, or when the ball is given to the player TO BE inbounded for play?

SCENARIO:
Referee gave ball to inbound player on Team A.
During the 5 count the other official blew the whistle and instructed a player on Team A to leave the court because they had 6.

Team B coach asked why this was not a Technical and the official told him it was because the ball had not been inbounded yet.

Seemed......odd.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
When does it become a violation of too many players on the court for a team?

When the ball is inbounded for play, or when the ball is given to the player TO BE inbounded for play?

SCENARIO:
Referee gave ball to inbound player on Team A.
During the 5 count the other official blew the whistle and instructed a player on Team A to leave the court because they had 6.

Team B coach asked why this was not a Technical and the official told him it was because the ball had not been inbounded yet.

Seemed......odd.
It seemed odd because it's wrong....

The ball became live once the ball was placed at the disposal of the thrower, therefore that's when the violation occurs and the resulting penalty is an Administrative Technical Foul charged to the offending team. Two free throws are awarded to the offended team and play will resume with that team being awarded a designated spot throw-in at the division line opposite the scorer's table.

A foul is also added to the team foul count of the offending team.
 
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thavoice

Well-known member
It seemed odd because it's wrong....

The ball became live once the ball was placed at the disposal of the thrower, therefore that's when the violation occurs and the resulting penalty is an Administrative Technical Foul charged to the offending team. Two free throws are awarded to the offended team and play will resume with that team being awarded a designated spot throw-in at the division line opposite the scorer's table.

A foul is also added to the team foul count of the offending team.
Much obliged. Even when I am fairly certain of something like this I want to ask because I have been wrong before.
Didn't matter in the game, and if the referee had stated something that it was a teaching moment (like ive seen an ump do on balks at times) I could understand it but the explanation he gave I knew was wrong. It was in a JH game and I think you don't warn teams about it at that level, you call the T.
 

zebrastripes

Active member
Not required to list contact or inhalers.... The contact lens angle is an old school mind set that a team will delay a game because "someone lost a contact".... those days are long gone and any official who requires that or asks for that is referred to as an "OOO" (overly officius official).... not a tag that most officials strive for.
These OOOs are generally the ones that have captains' meetings that last longer than 20 seconds and include stupid reminders like
"Black line all the way around."
"We're your officials tonight."
 

zebrastripes

Active member
Rule 10-1-1

A team must not:

Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.


PENALTY: (Art. 1) One foul for both requirements. Penalized when it occurs.
It's important to note that, contrary to the myth perpetrated by many officials, the book is not required to be ready at the 10-minute mark. The only requirement is that both teams have supplied their lineups to the scorer.
 
Late game situation: Team A inbounds and A34 is immediately fouled by B4. Ref calls a foul. Team B was not over the limit so ball set for throw in. While the refs are making their signals to the table the crowd yells that it should be an intentional foul. Team B inbounds again. Ball is thrown high and A34 and B4 jump up for the ball. There is contact, though nothing excessive, and both players are going for the ball. B4 is called for an intentional foul.

My question is what is classified as an intentional foul?
 

D4fan

Well-known member
Question concerning an eligible sub being called off the bench to shoot technical free throws.

First, does the sub have to report to scorers table and officially enter the game?
Second, once free throws are completed, and shooter returns to bench, can the offended team have the same lineup on the floor that they had prior to the sub shooting the technical throws?

As shooter returns to bench should not the offended team have to sub for him and it could not be the same player that left the floor when he entered as a sub to shoot?

Real case scenario- offended team selects eligible bench sub to shoot technical. Shooting sub did not report to scorers table but instead went strait to free throw line. After completion of throws sub walked strait back to bench but no one else reported to table, leaving original 5 players on floor of offending team. My assumption is the sub would have to be entered into the game prior to taking the throws, so if no one checks out there are now 6 players in the game for the offending team. Should the sub selected to shoot not be required to report to the table and the player he subs in for not be permitted to return to the floor until after a tick of the clock has occured?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Late game situation: Team A inbounds and A34 is immediately fouled by B4. Ref calls a foul. Team B was not over the limit so ball set for throw in. While the refs are making their signals to the table the crowd yells that it should be an intentional foul. Team B inbounds again. Ball is thrown high and A34 and B4 jump up for the ball. There is contact, though nothing excessive, and both players are going for the ball. B4 is called for an intentional foul.

My question is what is classified as an intentional foul?
It's impossible to address what happened in the situation you describe..... Have To Be There (HTBT)

However, by definition, Intentional Fouls ......

A personal or technical foul that may or may not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Some examples of Intentional Fouls are as follows (not limited to...)

- Contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position.
- Contact away from the ball with an opponent who is clearly not involved with a play.
- Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball/player and is specifically designed to stop the clock or keep it from starting.
- Excessive contact with an opponent while the ball is live or until an airborne shooter returns to the floor.
- Contact with a thrower(s) during a throw-in. (defender reaches through the throw-in plane and contacts the thrower)
- Contact with an opponent above the shoulders by a moving elbow, whether accidental or intentional. (could be flagrant)

Those are the standards that we must judge the actions by.......

And before the "late game intentional fouls never called" talk starts..... Fouling late int he game is an acceptable way of stopping the clock. Whether or not the foul is deemed intentional is solely up to the officials making said judgments.....
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Question concerning an eligible sub being called off the bench to shoot technical free throws.

First, does the sub have to report to scorers table and officially enter the game?
Any substitute entering the game must first report to the official scorer and then wait until he is beckoned into the game by an official.


Second, once free throws are completed, and shooter returns to bench, can the offended team have the same lineup on the floor that they had prior to the sub shooting the technical throws?

As shooter returns to bench should not the offended team have to sub for him and it could not be the same player that left the floor when he entered as a sub to shoot?
Any player that has been substituted for cannot re-enter the game until the clock has properly started. The term we use is "must sit a tick". In this situation A6 could come in for A5 and shoot the first FT and then A7 then could come in and shoot the second FT for A6..... and THEN A8 could come in and handle the throw in for A7.... A's 5, 6 & 7 now cannot return until the clock has properly started.

Real case scenario- offended team selects eligible bench sub to shoot technical. Shooting sub did not report to scorers table but instead went strait to free throw line. After completion of throws sub walked strait back to bench but no one else reported to table, leaving original 5 players on floor of offending team. My assumption is the sub would have to be entered into the game prior to taking the throws, so if no one checks out there are now 6 players in the game for the offending team. Should the sub selected to shoot not be required to report to the table and the player he subs in for not be permitted to return to the floor until after a tick of the clock has occured?
Once the ball became live when A6 entered the game to shoot the FT's, his/her entry became legal. In this case the ball becomes live when the official gives A6 the ball to shoot the first FT.

Once the ball became live after A5 returned (A6 went back to the bench) A5's return became legal as well. in this case the ball would become live again once the ball was placed at the disposal of a thrower at the division line opposite the scorer's table.

In situations like these....

- a good scorer/timer will help immensely
- any official worth their salt will see the error of the substitute and direct him to the table

Absent any of the above and if the official is notified of the illegal substitution before the ball becomes live, then a Technical Foul is charged directly to the offending player.

Note ..... you will not have a "6 on the floor situation" as there were not actually 6 players participating when the ball became live)

Hope that helps.......
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Thanks for the reply.....

8 feet or more at times ...

sometimes complaining,,, usually berating and yelling at his own players

happens quite frequently and I would think there would at least be a warning issued under these circumstances, but I think there is a bit of an intimidation factor that is created and when you get away with it for so long
Imagine said coach would only do what the officiating crew permits.

Put the clamps down right away and I bet he complies.
 
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