Any chance for a shot-clock yet?

Might as well call these two Extreme.

Because every argument is to the extreme edges and they can't comprehend anything in between. Also very strange.
 
Extreme? Ok but I get to be Gary. He got a cup of coffee with van Halen after all.
nancy wilson GIF
 
Yappi said:
Limited possessions make the game more interesting. What football does so well is that every possession matters. Each team might get 6-10 possessions in a reasonably close HS football game and a turnover or missed scoring opportunity can change the outcome.

In NBA basketball, the first three quarters are mostly boring. Just a 3-point shooting contest with mild defense. It reminds me of ping-pong, same thing over and over. The fourth quarter could be interesting depending on the score at the time.

High school basketball is closer to football. Limited possessions make the game more interesting. I could maybe accept a 1:00 shot clock as it wouldn't interfere with 99% of games being played. That would prevent the stalling where neither team attempts to make a play. But that is less than 1% of HS basketball games.

I would much rather see a 50-45 HS basketball game than a 90-70 game. Taking away the slow, deliberate style of basketball means less creativity. Now everyone has to play the same exact style...run the court and hoist up a shot.
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Or 90-40
 
Also, will they change to a running clock in 2nd quarter. Being a little sarcastic. Shot clock : average team with a couple solid guards have NO chance against a really good team ! Without a shot clock, they can hang around for 3+ quarters some nights !
 
1 time said:
Shot clock : average team with a couple solid guards have NO chance against a really good team
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An average team rarely has a chance to beat a really good team, shot clock or no shot clock. It's not the sports responsibility to make it easier for weaker teams. That makes no sense. Not how sports work.
 
Doublehelix said:
An average team rarely has a chance to beat a really good team, shot clock or no shot clock. It's not the sports responsibility to make it easier for weaker teams. That makes no sense. Not how sports work.
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It’s HS sports. It’s not Big time college or the Pros. I’ve seen MANY teams with solid guards upset or take the better team down to the last 2 minutes. Ain’t happening with a shot clock !
 
Doublehelix said:
Yeah...and?

The point is a whole bunch of those players with already developed skills don't get to use them in an ultra coach controlled environment, which imo, is making the sport terrible to watch, and is a large part of my argument for the shot clock. Contrary to belief, it has NOTHING to do with scoring or entertainment. Even though you can say that 1 million times and the opponents will still say "you just prefer a more entertaining style". Which has happened in this thread 25 million times and continues to be super super odd.
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No. You actually said: "But as others have mentioned, it will require a coach to be more lenient with shot selection, because they cannot control a dwindling shot clock, which is good for allowing more kids to develop some of those offensive skills."
 
Talk some sense said:
No. You actually said: "But as others have mentioned, it will require a coach to be more lenient with shot selection, because they cannot control a dwindling shot clock, which is good for allowing more kids to develop some of those offensive skills."
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He gets confused as to what he has said previously frequently.
 
Talk some sense said:
No. You actually said: "But as others have mentioned, it will require a coach to be more lenient with shot selection, because they cannot control a dwindling shot clock, which is good for allowing more kids to develop some of those offensive skills."
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And?

Where did I contradict myself?

In one post, I said coaches will have to become more lenient on who shoots, meaning it will be less controlled with a shot clock.

And in the other, I said currently kids with offensive skills aren't allowed to shoot because of over-bearing coach control, in an environment without a shot clock.

As usual, you 3 are the confused ones.

More completely bizarre statements. Y'all are weird.
 
Doublehelix said:
And?

Where did I contradict myself?

In one post, I said coaches will have to become more lenient on who shoots, meaning it will be less controlled with a shot clock.

And in the other, I said currently kids with offensive skills aren't allowed to shoot because of over-bearing coach control, in an environment without a shot clock.

As usual, you 3 are the confused ones.

More completely bizarre statements. Y'all are weird.
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Looks like you said the players are already developed but over controlled in one post. And then you said the players will need to be developed in another post.
 
With the exception of a few teams and players, the skill level in HS basketball is bad. It’s not gonna matter if there’s a 10 second or 40 second shot clock. Until most of today’s players put maximum time and effort into the off season, it isn’t going to matter much. There’s reasons the running clock was put in for basketball and football.
 
Doublehelix said:
An average team rarely has a chance to beat a really good team, shot clock or no shot clock. It's not the sports responsibility to make it easier for weaker teams. That makes no sense. Not how sports work.
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Also, HS basketball is maybe the only sport, where if you control tempo you have a puncher’s chance, sometimes. With a shot clock, there’s little chance. If they go to a 45 second shot clock, I could live with that , maybe 😊
 
1 time said:
With the exception of a few teams and players, the skill level in HS basketball is bad.
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I disagree, but will say I'm typically watching D1 games the vast majority of the time. If you're in D1 on a varsity roster, you can play. Yes, even the kids that don't get in much. The difference of the kids that play and those that don't typically comes down to size and strength, not basketball skill.

And there are often times when those bigger and stronger kids don't have the same level of skill, but need to play because they're big and strong. That's one of the major reasons it looks ugly. Coaches have to fill their rosters with jacked up strong men because the game has gotten so physical, which is a completely separate problem from the shot clock.
 
Doublehelix said:
I disagree, but will say I'm typically watching D1 games the vast majority of the time. If you're in D1 on a varsity roster, you can play. Yes, even the kids that don't get in much. The difference of the kids that play and those that don't typically comes down to size and strength, not basketball skill.

And there are often times when those bigger and stronger kids don't have the same level of skill, but need to play because they're big and strong. That's one of the major reasons it looks ugly. Coaches have to fill their rosters with jacked up strong men because the game has gotten so physical, which is a completely separate problem from the shot clock.
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Really ? We’re talking about the many average and below average teams and players that are numerous across Ohio. It’s bad basketball and low skill level at Many schools. Until work ethic changes, basketball at many schools will Never be the same. Shot clock or NO shot clock.
 
1 time said:
Really ? We’re talking about the many average and below average teams and players that are numerous across Ohio. It’s bad basketball and low skill level at Many schools. Until work ethic changes, basketball at many schools will Never be the same. Shot clock or NO shot clock.
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Yes, I don't agree with this.

Kids are training, playing and working on skills more than ever before. These kids work very hard. In fact, at most schools, you're not on the team if you're not participating in off-season stuff and giving your best effort.

As I mentioned, I rarely watch lower division games, so maybe your statement is accurate there, but there is talent and skill on most D1 rosters.

Coaches would rather roll out kids to enforce than play-make, especially in certain conferences.

LaSalle is a great example. They had one kid that could shoot, and the rest of the team honestly just came out and knocked people around. It's terrible basketball, and they are allowed to get away with it. They won games because of this strategy, not basketball skills.
 
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A discussion about the merits of a shot clock has moved into the state of the game. I'll say this, I think the top level, elite players are better than ever because of training, competition, rules changes (specifically dribbling). But I would say in general, and this is overall, top to bottom, big schools and small, the product is worse. Let's look at the last major rule change, the 3 point shot. While it accomplished the goal of spreading the floor, it's also created a couple of generations of terrible shooters and to the same extent, poorer shot selection.
But my biggest reason to not have the shot clock is you'll need yet more staff at the game, another person at the scorer's table and they WILL need to know what's going on.
 
14Red said:
A discussion about the merits of a shot clock has moved into the state of the game. I'll say this, I think the top level, elite players are better than ever because of training, competition, rules changes (specifically dribbling). But I would say in general, and this is overall, top to bottom, big schools and small, the product is worse. Let's look at the last major rule change, the 3 point shot. While it accomplished the goal of spreading the floor, it's also created a couple of generations of terrible shooters and to the same extent, poorer shot selection.
But my biggest reason to not have the shot clock is you'll need yet more staff at the game, another person at the scorer's table and they WILL need to know what's going on.
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A team with a bunch of bad shooters that shoot alot of 3s is squarely a coaching issue.
 
winbypin said:
The coach should probably control them more then, right?
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If they can't shoot, and they keep missing, yes. That has nothing to do with the shot clock. Again, just more common sense.

You think this is a player issue. That they suck and they don't work hard and they just want to run and gun and chuck shots. It's not even close to what's inside these kids. They want to win, they want to show what they can do, and they are willing to put in the work. I find it sickening that people just say "man, kids suck these days, they don't work at all". It's a slap in the face to the kids and their coaches.

And if a player is acting that way, and a coach gives them a roster spot and plays them, then the coach has no right to whine.

I think it's more caused by the coaches, through fear of losing jobs and running controlled possessions to make them feel safe.

We're never going to agree, but imo, the ugliness of the game is 90% coach driven.
 
Doublehelix said:
If they can't shoot, and they keep missing, yes. That has nothing to do with the shot clock. Again, just more common sense.

You think this is a player issue. That they suck and they don't work hard and they just want to run and gun and chuck shots. It's not even close to what's inside these kids. They want to win, they want to show what they can do, and they are willing to put in the work. I find it sickening that people just say "man, kids suck these days, they don't work at all". It's a slap in the face to the kids and their coaches.

And if a player is acting that way, and a coach gives them a roster spot and plays them, then the coach has no right to whine.

I think it's more caused by the coaches, through fear of losing jobs and running controlled possessions to make them feel safe.

We're never going to agree, but imo, the ugliness of the game is 90% coach driven.
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I never said any of those things about the kids or players.
 
Doublehelix said:
A team with a bunch of bad shooters that shoot alot of 3s is squarely a coaching issue.
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Maybe, but it’s a generation that’s grown up shooting 3’s while their Daddy’s coached them. It’s born n bred in them. Get to HS, most can’t shoot or pas. Some coaches are stuck with this at the HS level.
 
1 time said:
Maybe, but it’s a generation that’s grown up shooting 3’s while their Daddy’s coached them. It’s born n bred in them. Get to HS, most can’t shoot or pas. Some coaches are stuck with this at the HS level.
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Which is exactly why they should ignore the three point line beow the freshman level. How about we get back to teaching the younger players the fundamentals of basketball..... starting with receiving a pass and becoming a triple threat?
 
Since I haven't been around travel basketball for a few years, how often do these travel tournaments use a shot clock? What is the time on the shot clock? Are the shot clock tournaments more popular than tournaments that play without a shot clock?

Personally, my opinion is that High School basketball is the pinnacle of youth basketball. It is by far the most popular and watched for this age group. Travel basketball on the other hand has a huge role in developing players and is great for getting players reps they may not be able to get playing for their HS team. Basically, I consider travel basketball more as practice and less as a competition.

With that said, the travel basketball circuit is the laboratory where experiments on the game should be conducted. HS basketball is the gold standard. Don't mess with it unless you have a change that will overwhelmingly make the game better. The shot clock has not cleared that hurdle yet.
 
Yappi said:
Since I haven't been around travel basketball for a few years, how often do these travel tournaments use a shot clock? What is the time on the shot clock? Are the shot clock tournaments more popular than tournaments that play without a shot clock?

Personally, my opinion is that High School basketball is the pinnacle of youth basketball. It is by far the most popular and watched for this age group. Travel basketball on the other hand has a huge role in developing players and is great for getting players reps they may not be able to get playing for their HS team. Basically, I consider travel basketball more as practice and less as a competition.

With that said, the travel basketball circuit is the laboratory where experiments on the game should be conducted. HS basketball is the gold standard. Don't mess with it unless you have a change that will overwhelmingly make the game better. The shot clock has not cleared that hurdle yet.
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Most travel basketball is a joke unless you’re in a high level league. It’s a Huge Moneymaker for those that take advantage of all the parents and grandparents. It’s great that they play, but many aren’t learning fundamentals. Wonder why European players, with great fundamentals ,are becoming bigger and bigger in college and Pros
 
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