Any chance for a shot-clock yet?

[Doublehelix]

I will say I think the hilarity of this whole thing is that football games typically have 3, sometimes 4 guys on the chains & play clock in each endzone. Whether people agree or disagree on how it would affect the game, let's not act like it would be some monumental effort to do this.

So true.

 

[winbypin]

Player development has nothing to do with a shot clock. Getting in the gym or even outside in the off season is the key. Many only do a little of this in the offseason. That’s the big issue ! Until this changes, basketball and other sports will suffer. Exception to every situation, but this kinda of the standard Hope I’m wrong going forward.

But wait....doublehelix said the shot clock will force more player development.


PS....I agree with you. The role players (the people he is saying that will get developed by implementing the shot clock) aren't putting in as much effort as the stars (those guys obviously put in the time). Many of the role players, especially in the lower divisions of basketball, play different sports. So they could be putting in time with those sports instead but still want to represent the school and help their friends win games the best they can.

 

[winbypin]

This statement is ridiculous. Every school has summer programs, camps and off-season open gyms and conditioning. Alot of kids have extra training they put in on their own. A ton go to one-on-one trainers. There is more basketball training now than ever before.

Again, putting this on the kids in crap. They work to get better. And if they don't, why are coaches putting them on teams?

Lol. Tell me you don't know what is happening with the HS game around the state and across all divisions without saying you don't know what is happening.

 

[winbypin]

We've already established in this thread, and many other threads, that stalling can be not initiating offense as well as the opposing team just standing there and doing nothing on defense. Both are stupid and egregious.

But this was a do or die, win or go home, tournament game. Without the lead, Harrison went into a zone (or a gap man-to-man as Marx called it lol) and West Hi, knowing they had the lead, knew they didn't have to do a thing. So they forced their opponent to come guard them, and that opponent just stared at them, all instructed by their coach, who was already losing later in the second half of a must win game. And then, it didn't work, and they still lost, and the coach still said it was the right thing to do.

It was nothing more than both coaches trying to out-ego each other (which the West Hi coach pretty much admitted to). And it was a coach (Marx) trying to push the stupidity away from himself by saying it was the right move. And then acting like the fans and the opposing coach were the dumb ones. At least the West Hi coach was honest when he basically said "wow, you're gonna let me bleed a whole quarter with the lead, ok, works for me dummy". What a way for a Senior to go out, and then have to listen to the coach say it was the right move. What a joke.

There's no defending that in a win or go home tournament game. It's not like it was a team that was completely over-matched. It was like a 5 point game at halftime playing a normal style.

And you know what would have prevented all of this stupidity? A shot clock. Which Ironically, both coaches said they wanted lol. Marx said all of things a shot clock would do for the game, and then did none of it for his team. And he still thinks he's right, and people still defend it because he's been at Harrison for so long (and won nothing).

And we get a handful of games like this all year. The most are played without the stalling.

 

[winbypin]

I will say I think the hilarity of this whole thing is that football games typically have 3, sometimes 4 guys on the chains & play clock in each endzone. Whether people agree or disagree on how it would affect the game, let's not act like it would be some monumental effort to do this.

That's a great story. Not sure what it has to do with anything though.

 

[Doublehelix]

But wait....doublehelix said the shot clock will force more player development.


PS....I agree with you. The role players (the people he is saying that will get developed by implementing the shot clock) aren't putting in as much effort as the stars (those guys obviously put in the time). Many of the role players, especially in the lower divisions of basketball, play different sports. So they could be putting in time with those sports instead but still want to represent the school and help their friends win games the best they can.

More myths. More players shooting will require more coaches to coach offensive skills vs just teaching their offense. Again, this isn't an overnight flip of the switch, nor is it meant to be.

And kids aren't putting in as much effort as the stars? What in the world are you talking about? Kids have different levels of skill. One kid could put in a lifetime's worth of work and never be as good as a naturally gifted player. That doesn't mean he isn't working hard. In fact, you probably see the kids with the most talent working the least, at least at some schools.

 

[Doublehelix]

Lol. Tell me you don't know what is happening with the HS game around the state and across all divisions without saying you don't know what is happening.

Again, huh?

So all of these camps, out of town trips, open gyms, off-season scrimmages, training sessions are all just a figment of our imagination? They're not happening?

What are you even talking about?

 

[Doublehelix]

And we get a handful of games like this all year. The most are played without the stalling.

And your point?

The Harrison coach was a moron for this. Period. And here we are, still people defending the stupidity.

 

[Doublehelix]

That's a great story. Not sure what it has to do with anything though.

Follow the bouncing ball.

Many in this thread and in this argument say a shot clock isn't feasible because of the resources, people and cost it would incur. Yet, there's plenty of, one would say more than enough, for football games being played all over.

How can you not connect the dots?

 

[AllSports12]

A team can stall without the ball......

Now I've heard it all....

 

[Doublehelix]

A team can stall without the ball......

Now I've heard it all....

Yet everyone says both coaches are to blame when it happens, which is true.

So which is it? You can't have it both ways, even though you try.

 

[winbypin]

More myths. More players shooting will require more coaches to coach offensive skills vs just teaching their offense. Again, this isn't an overnight flip of the switch, nor is it meant to be.

And kids aren't putting in as much effort as the stars? What in the world are you talking about? Kids have different levels of skill. One kid could put in a lifetime's worth of work and never be as good as a naturally gifted player. That doesn't mean he isn't working hard. In fact, you probably see the kids with the most talent working the least, at least at some schools.

Yes. There are kids all around the state that will be on varsity rosters that aren't putting in the same level of effort as the guys that only play basketball and/or have a legit shot at playing behind HS. Many reasons for this...another sport is their primary sport is probably the biggest. If football, soccer, basketball, golf, or anyone not-basketball is their favorite....that is where they are spending most of their development efforts.

Skill level is not the same thing as effort level. Being a former assistant JV coach I figured you would know that.

 

[winbypin]

Again, huh?

So all of these camps, out of town trips, open gyms, off-season scrimmages, training sessions are all just a figment of our imagination? They're not happening?

What are you even talking about?

No, they are happening. You really think a varsity coach is getting 100% participation? That's cute.

 

[Doublehelix]

Yes. There are kids all around the state that will be on varsity rosters that aren't putting in the same level of effort as the guys that only play basketball and/or have a legit shot at playing behind HS. Many reasons for this...another sport is their primary sport is probably the biggest. If football, soccer, basketball, golf, or anyone not-basketball is their favorite....that is where they are spending most of their development efforts.

Skill level is not the same thing as effort level. Being a former assistant JV coach I figured you would know that.

So a kid that plays 3 sports doesn't work as hard as a kid playing 1?

Unless a kid can replicate himself, how would you suggest they train for 2 sports at the same time?

 

[Doublehelix]

No, they are happening. You really think a varsity coach is getting 100% participation? That's cute.

If a kid is playing another sport, that's a pretty legitimate excuse to not be there, don't ya think?

If a kid's primary sport is basketball, and he doesn't go, then he shouldn't be kept on the roster. Pretty simple.

Don't act like multiple sport athletes are killing the game of basketball. That's garbage. Multi-sport athletes have always been around.

If your approach is true, that would mean every other sport that uses multi-sport athletes has seen a drop, right?

 

[winbypin]

And your point?

The Harrison coach was a moron for this. Period. And here we are, still people defending the stupidity.

The point is it happens rarely as I said previously. Tail wagging the dog.

 

[Doublehelix]

The point is it happens rarely as I said previously. Tail wagging the dog.

And I've laid out the others points for its adoption, all of which are legit.

But just like you, you come back to the same tired and shallow response.

 

[winbypin]

Follow the bouncing ball.

Many in this thread and in this argument say a shot clock isn't feasible because of the resources, people and cost it would incur. Yet, there's plenty of, one would say more than enough, for football games being played all over.

How can you not connect the dots?

Football is largely played on the same night every week. Half the teams only play 10 games or less. Basketball is played 2-3 times a week....many times during the week. Understanding when restart a basketball shot clock is more complicated than a guy standing there holding a stick attached to a chain (that a ref told him where to place) or even flipping the down marker (which the ref reminds him what the down is). Even the football play clock, which can/is kept on the field by an official, starts when the ref indicates to do so. And the expensive equipment isn't necessary in football either.

I hope you can connect the dots on these differences.

 

[winbypin]

So a kid that plays 3 sports doesn't work as hard as a kid playing 1?

Never said that. They have limited free time so they focus more on their favorite or the one they have the best chance at the next level to develop the most. I know kids that will be playing soccer in college but they are really good hoops players too. They have missed HS basketball games because their club soccer team is playing in a tournament some place. Same with baseball players.

Unless a kid can replicate himself, how would you suggest they train for 2 sports at the same time?

They have to choose in most cases.

 

[AllSports12]

Football is largely played on the same night every week. Half the teams only play 10 games or less. Basketball is played 2-3 times a week....many times during the week. Understanding when restart a basketball shot clock is more complicated than a guy standing there holding a stick attached to a chain (that a ref told him where to place) or even flipping the down marker (which the ref reminds him what the down is). Even the football play clock, which can/is kept on the field by an official, starts when the ref indicates to do so. And the expensive equipment isn't necessary in football either.

I hope you can connect the dots on these differences.

And don't forget, when the play clock is running in football, the ball is dead. The offense can't do anything to advance the ball and the defense can't do anything to steal the ball.

That's why the football comparison falls flat on it's face.

 

[winbypin]

And I've laid out the others points for its adoption, all of which are legit.

But just like you, you come back to the same tired and shallow response.

Your other points are subjective though. A preference of style.

Putting an end to stalling is the only tangible reason you have offered.

 

[Doublehelix]

Never said that. They have limited free time so they focus more on their favorite or the one they have the best chance at the next level to develop the most. I know kids that will be playing soccer in college but they are really good hoops players too. They have missed HS basketball games because their club soccer team is playing in a tournament some place. Same with baseball players.


They have to choose in most cases.

They don't have to choose and any coach that makes them sucks.

 

[Doublehelix]

And don't forget, when the play clock is running in football, the ball is dead. The offense can't do anything to advance the ball and the defense can't do anything to steal the ball.

That's why the football comparison falls flat on it's face.

The post referenced in this was not comparing clocks during the game.

His point was that it's hilarious that people say it can't happen in basketball because of the cost and resources required yet all of those costs and resources are utilized for football. And he's right, regardless of the stupid spin you two are trying to put on it.

And then win said he didn't see the comparison. Not shocking.

 

[winbypin]

They don't have to choose and any coach that makes them sucks.

No, they have to choose which one gets most of their time. Never said anything about a coach demanding the kids focus on their sport.

 

[Doublehelix]

No, they have to choose which one gets most of their time. Never said anything about a coach demanding the kids focus on their sport.

Fair enough.

Are there basketball kids who play football and baseball? Yes.

Are football and baseball struggling because of it? No.

But it's true for basketball? No.

Your point has zero merit. It's just a ridiculous argument to say basketball is hurting because of multi-sport athletes. Every sport has multi-sport athletes, and always has.

 

[winbypin]

Fair enough.

Are there basketball kids who play football and baseball? Yes.

Are football and baseball struggling because of it? No.

But it's true for basketball? No.

Your point has zero merit. It's just a ridiculous argument to say basketball is hurting because of multi-sport athletes. Every sport has multi-sport athletes, and always has.

I never said basketball was hurting because of multi-sport athletes. I said multi-sport athletes don't have as much free time to put into basketball especially if basketball is not their top sport.

 

[Doublehelix]

I never said basketball was hurting because of multi-sport athletes. I said multi-sport athletes don't have as much free time to put into basketball especially if basketball is not their top sport.

But you're using that point to say that players aren't as good because of it.

But then don't agree that if that is true, it must be true for football and baseball then, right? Yet no one says the kids aren't working as hard and the game is uglier in either of those sports. There are just as many kids that play other sports too. It's a fallacy, and has zero merit.

 

[winbypin]

But you're using that point to say that players aren't as good because of it.

But then don't agree that if that is true, it must be true for football and baseball then, right? Yet no one says the kids aren't working as hard and the game is uglier in either of those sports. There are just as many kids that play other sports too. It's a fallacy, and has zero merit.

Again....I never said these things. You're reading the words but only seeing what you want to see.

The kids you're thinking/hoping will develop better skills due to the implementation of the shot clock are the role players on the team. The stars are going to get their looks, shots, and points regardless but in your opinion it's the role players that will be developed more out of necessity. Clock is winding down they need to create offense is your theory, right?

I am simply saying many of those role players, especially in the lower divisions which you admit to rarely following, basketball is not their #1 sport. So they could be focusing on soccer, golf, football, baseball, lacrosse, etc more than basketball. It's just simple math at this point. Only so much time in the day, week, month, year to work on their skills. So they naturally have to choose at times. So they focus on soccer let's say....they then play club in the late fall, spring and summer. They go to as much summer basketball as they can, and late summer and into the fall they play soccer for their school. Sure they will work hard when the focus is basketball but at the end of the day they will contribute the best way they can, they will help their friends/teammates achieve the team's goals, represent their school well, and then will return focusing on soccer (in this example) when basketball is over.

And the coaches will still work their offense to control it as much as they can and try to get the ball into their best players hands like they do now. The kids setting the picks, making the passes, coming off the bench to give a rest to the starter, etc will take their roles with great pride regardless of the shot clock being there or not.

 

[Doublehelix]

Again....I never said these things. You're reading the words but only seeing what you want to see.

The kids you're thinking/hoping will develop better skills due to the implementation of the shot clock are the role players on the team. The stars are going to get their looks, shots, and points regardless but in your opinion it's the role players that will be developed more out of necessity. Clock is winding down they need to create offense is your theory, right?

I am simply saying many of those role players, especially in the lower divisions which you admit to rarely following, basketball is not their #1 sport. So they could be focusing on soccer, golf, football, baseball, lacrosse, etc more than basketball. It's just simple math at this point. Only so much time in the day, week, month, year to work on their skills. So they naturally have to choose at times. So they focus on soccer let's say....they then play club in the late fall, spring and summer. They go to as much summer basketball as they can, and late summer and into the fall they play soccer for their school. Sure they will work hard when the focus is basketball but at the end of the day they will contribute the best way they can, they will help their friends/teammates achieve the team's goals, represent their school well, and then will return focusing on soccer (in this example) when basketball is over.

And the coaches will still work their offense to control it as much as they can and try to get the ball into their best players hands like they do now. The kids setting the picks, making the passes, coming off the bench to give a rest to the starter, etc will take their roles with great pride regardless of the shot clock being there or not.

And do you have a point in this obvious drivel?

Again, kids playing multiple sports, at any level, isn't some new development. The best kids always play multiple sports. Always have, always will.

But for some reason, it's more harmful to basketball than the other sports, because no one is making the argument in football and baseball that the game has gotten so ugly that it needs a drastic change?

The kids didn't cause this ugliness to the point where it needs change. The coaches did.

 

[winbypin]

And do you have a point in this obvious drivel?

Again, kids playing multiple sports, at any level, isn't some new development. The best kids always play multiple sports. Always have, always will.

But for some reason, it's more harmful to basketball than the other sports, because no one is making the argument in football and baseball that the game has gotten so ugly that it needs a drastic change?

The kids didn't cause this ugliness to the point where it needs change. The coaches did.

My point is the shot clock isn't going to do what you think/want/hope it will for player development.

If will eliminate coaches from holding the ball or extended possessions which is your preferred style of play. You have been very clear on that.