The Official 2021 Cincinnati Reds Thread

wolves82

Well-known member
Have not watched much, I sometimes catch an inning here or there. I did catch the last 2 innings of the Braves/Brewers series. Enjoyable seeing Freeman take Hader out of the park for the win.

CBJ hockey season starts today, that and the Buckeyes & Browns have my attention now. I'll peak into the MLB playoffs occasionally.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Have not watched much, I sometimes catch an inning here or there. I did catch the last 2 innings of the Braves/Brewers series. Enjoyable seeing Freeman take Hader out of the park for the win.

CBJ hockey season starts today, that and the Buckeyes & Browns have my attention now. I'll peak into the MLB playoffs occasionally.
I like Freddie Freeman, the ESPN special on him was fantastic. I was kinda rooting for the Brewers. I'd say they are the one team in our division I hate the least.

I enjoy post-season baseball, no matter who's playing. The pitch to pitch anxiety is off the charts. I honestly have not watched or followed hockey for 25 years. As I tell folks, my sports plate is full, I can't add any other sports and hockey just does nothing for me. I couldn't name one player on the Jackets.
Browns and Buckeyes?? They play once a week?
To each their own!
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Something none of us mentioned for a while. The expiring labor contract (Dec 1) means there will almost certainly be a work stoppage. I read that lots of stuff is on the table:
- Salary floor
- Eliminating arbitration process
- Free Agency starting the season after a player turns 29 and a half (instead of 6 years of team control)
- eliminating luxury tax

The only good thing is that as a result nobody is offering Castellanos a deal until it gets resolved. But I'll be stunned if these greedy fools can reach an agreement before the season should start. So get ready for no baseball next spring. :(
 

14Red

Well-known member
Something none of us mentioned for a while. The expiring labor contract (Dec 1) means there will almost certainly be a work stoppage. I read that lots of stuff is on the table:
- Salary floor
- Eliminating arbitration process
- Free Agency starting the season after a player turns 29 and a half (instead of 6 years of team control)
- eliminating luxury tax

The only good thing is that as a result nobody is offering Castellanos a deal until it gets resolved. But I'll be stunned if these greedy fools can reach an agreement before the season should start. So get ready for no baseball next spring. :(

I think this is a big black cloud looming over baseball and maybe why we've not got much talk from the Reds on Castellenos or any other issues for 2022. As much as I want to give baseball credit, I really, REALLY hope they are not dumb enough to think they can have a strike and it not just crush the game. I mean baseball is already behind the NFL and that will likely never recover, and in many people's minds, the NBA has passed baseball as well.

So answer me this as I've not paid attention to labor stoppages in the past. If there is a strike, when it is resolved, are the existing contracts still valid, or does everyone have to work their own deals again? I know several years ago the NHL had a strike and they really streamlined their processes and salaries.

I can't imagine the players association agreeing to free agency starting at 29 1/2?
 

14Red

Well-known member
So something to debate during the offseason is the shortstop position. Kyle Farmer finally got ownership of the short stop job after the Reds could not find anyone else. Farmer did an outstanding job, but the Reds have been grooming a franchise SS for a few years in Jose Barrero. Farmer is an incredibly valuable member of this team because he can play all infield positions, and can even catch in a pinch.
I feel you make Barrero the full time SS and keep Farmer in a utility role. This will upset many people but I think you have to try to give the kid a chance to be a star. His ceiling is much higher than Farmer's. He just needs to prove it.
 

AEW Champion

Active member
If the Reds had been smart, they would have traded Castellanos, Mahle and Miley back in June and used the prospect haul to bolster the team around 2024 when Greene and Lodolo would be ready to be team centerpieces.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
 

GCPRO

Well-known member
If the Reds had been smart, they would have traded Castellanos, Mahle and Miley back in June and used the prospect haul to bolster the team around 2024 when Greene and Lodolo would be ready to be team centerpieces.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
I can't disagree with the thought except Mahle. He's under contract for two more years and has continued to progress.
I've stated numerous times that Barrero has to be the SS next season and beyond. Keeping the cheap salary of Farmer around as insurance plus a quality reserve seems prudent.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
If the Reds had been smart, they would have traded Castellanos, Mahle and Miley back in June and used the prospect haul to bolster the team around 2024 when Greene and Lodolo would be ready to be team centerpieces.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
Two outta three ain't bad. Trading Mahle would be beyond foolish. Young, improving, inexpensive and under team control.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
I think this is a big black cloud looming over baseball and maybe why we've not got much talk from the Reds on Castellenos or any other issues for 2022. As much as I want to give baseball credit, I really, REALLY hope they are not dumb enough to think they can have a strike and it not just crush the game. I mean baseball is already behind the NFL and that will likely never recover, and in many people's minds, the NBA has passed baseball as well.

So answer me this as I've not paid attention to labor stoppages in the past. If there is a strike, when it is resolved, are the existing contracts still valid, or does everyone have to work their own deals again? I know several years ago the NHL had a strike and they really streamlined their processes and salaries.

I can't imagine the players association agreeing to free agency starting at 29 1/2?
You won't hear talk about Castellanos or from any team about 2022 player moves or contracts until the new labor contract with the MLBPA is in place.

Current contracts remain valid during and after a strike / work stoppage, unless it is negotiated in as part of the deal that a work stoppage ends the contract. No player in their right mind would agree to that. I think the paychecks stop during the stoppage.

Not sure why you would give MLB credit. They get almost everything wrong. I expect a fairly long stoppage, and it makes me unhappy.
 

AEW Champion

Active member
I’m not as high on Tyler Mahle as you guys are. Remember, it was only 24 months ago at this time that he was seen as a black sheep and given no chance to be a fifth starter on the 2020 Reds. I felt pretty strongly (and still do) that he peaked early this season and was playing over his head, making him a prospect-rich value in the trade market for some team willing to overpay for a serviceable, cost-controlled back end of the rotation guy.

The Reds made the same mistake several years ago with Mike Leake: not trading a run-of-the-mill pitcher at peak value and getting far less in return later on.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
 

14Red

Well-known member
You won't hear talk about Castellanos or from any team about 2022 player moves or contracts until the new labor contract with the MLBPA is in place.

Current contracts remain valid during and after a strike / work stoppage, unless it is negotiated in as part of the deal that a work stoppage ends the contract. No player in their right mind would agree to that. I think the paychecks stop during the stoppage.

Not sure why you would give MLB credit. They get almost everything wrong. I expect a fairly long stoppage, and it makes me unhappy.
So why blame MLB for the work stoppage? It takes two to tango. You do have franchises losing money and for many, it's a wash. Now understand that for most teams, this is "hobby" money for the ownership group. No one is losing personal money here. That said, like any major corporation who has shareholders, they don't like to lose money. It astounds me when fans get mad at owners and are always wanting the players to make more. Major league minimum, MINIMUM, is $550,000 now.
I thought it was an awful idea back in the 80's when players pay became general knowledge. I really don't care what players make. They get to play baseball and there is no end of a supply of guys who'd love to trade places with them. For some reason fans almost always side with the players with contracts???
It will be a gigantic mistake if baseball and the union decide to strike. Baseball is losing interest by the day in many parts of the country. And don't pay attention to the ratings of the playoffs and world series, when teams win people show up, we have a very front running society today, but that's another issue. Baseball is losing interest of the casual fan because of the length of game and the style of play.
 

brianwr112

Well-known member
So why blame MLB for the work stoppage? It takes two to tango. You do have franchises losing money and for many, it's a wash. Now understand that for most teams, this is "hobby" money for the ownership group. No one is losing personal money here. That said, like any major corporation who has shareholders, they don't like to lose money. It astounds me when fans get mad at owners and are always wanting the players to make more. Major league minimum, MINIMUM, is $550,000 now.
I thought it was an awful idea back in the 80's when players pay became general knowledge. I really don't care what players make. They get to play baseball and there is no end of a supply of guys who'd love to trade places with them. For some reason fans almost always side with the players with contracts???
It will be a gigantic mistake if baseball and the union decide to strike. Baseball is losing interest by the day in many parts of the country. And don't pay attention to the ratings of the playoffs and world series, when teams win people show up, we have a very front running society today, but that's another issue. Baseball is losing interest of the casual fan because of the length of game and the style of play.
Can you which teams are losing money?
 

wolves82

Well-known member
So why blame MLB for the work stoppage? It takes two to tango. You do have franchises losing money and for many, it's a wash. Now understand that for most teams, this is "hobby" money for the ownership group. No one is losing personal money here. That said, like any major corporation who has shareholders, they don't like to lose money. It astounds me when fans get mad at owners and are always wanting the players to make more. Major league minimum, MINIMUM, is $550,000 now.
I thought it was an awful idea back in the 80's when players pay became general knowledge. I really don't care what players make. They get to play baseball and there is no end of a supply of guys who'd love to trade places with them. For some reason fans almost always side with the players with contracts???
It will be a gigantic mistake if baseball and the union decide to strike. Baseball is losing interest by the day in many parts of the country. And don't pay attention to the ratings of the playoffs and world series, when teams win people show up, we have a very front running society today, but that's another issue. Baseball is losing interest of the casual fan because of the length of game and the style of play.
First of all, when I say"the MLB always gets it wrong", I include the MLBPA in that. Both sides are selfish and unreasonable negotiators, and fail to see the big picture. I am not siding with the players.

Secondly, I realize you never research anything, but there are not teams "losing money". None of us have seen the books, which is part of the MLBPA's primary beef. There are some public figures, like we know total revenue and total player salaries. Teams like Miami, Tampa and Pittsburgh have about 45% of their total revenue dedicated to player salaries. The highest are the Nationals and Angels, with 62% of their revenue dedicated to player salaries.

So stop making up stuff or parroting what you hear on your beloved talk radio. Do some research.
 

14Red

Well-known member
First of all, when I say"the MLB always gets it wrong", I include the MLBPA in that. Both sides are selfish and unreasonable negotiators, and fail to see the big picture. I am not siding with the players.

Secondly, I realize you never research anything, but there are not teams "losing money". None of us have seen the books, which is part of the MLBPA's primary beef. There are some public figures, like we know total revenue and total player salaries. Teams like Miami, Tampa and Pittsburgh have about 45% of their total revenue dedicated to player salaries. The highest are the Nationals and Angels, with 62% of their revenue dedicated to player salaries.

So stop making up stuff or parroting what you hear on your beloved talk radio. Do some research.
So what are the other employee salaries and "operational" expenses that make up the rest of the picture, since you are Mr. Research???

Look, we've already determined year after year that the teams who spend the most do not always win. I've said I could care less what players make, that's between them and the team. The teams owners/ administration and shareholders are the only ones who need to concern themselves with salaries. We're lowly fans who can't even dream of these things. Now the MLBPA loves to use fan passion as a tool to put pressure on ownership to pay players. I really don't care. Votto has been a great Red, and he makes a salary commiserate with his value to the team.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
So what are the other employee salaries and "operational" expenses that make up the rest of the picture, since you are Mr. Research???

Look, we've already determined year after year that the teams who spend the most do not always win. I've said I could care less what players make, that's between them and the team. The teams owners/ administration and shareholders are the only ones who need to concern themselves with salaries. We're lowly fans who can't even dream of these things. Now the MLBPA loves to use fan passion as a tool to put pressure on ownership to pay players. I really don't care. Votto has been a great Red, and he makes a salary commiserate with his value to the team.
Full team financials have never been published - they are privately held companies. As I said, that is what the players union has been asking for forever - every time a new contract is needed.
1) Teams say "we are losing money".
2) MLBPA says "prove it".
3) Teams refuse to share audited financials.
4) Prolonged work stoppage
5) Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

You really don't pay attention. How is a supposed baseball fan unaware of this?
 

14Red

Well-known member
Full team financials have never been published - they are privately held companies. As I said, that is what the players union has been asking for forever - every time a new contract is needed.
1) Teams say "we are losing money".
2) MLBPA says "prove it".
3) Teams refuse to share audited financials.
4) Prolonged work stoppage
5) Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

You really don't pay attention. How is a supposed baseball fan unaware of this?
Um you said privately held companies...

1) Kid starts playing baseball because he "loves the game"
2) Kid is really good at baseball and decides to possibly make a career of it.
3) Kid's peers are making between $20,000 - $100,000 per year doing whatever they do
4) Kid gets drafted - if high enough gets a big signing bonus
5) Refer back to #2
6) Kid progresses gets to the majors - major league minimum $550,000, possibly signs endorsement deals making much more.
7) Refer back to #2
8) Player hits arbitration, minimum salary for arb eligible players well over $1 million per year.
9) In 2020, the AVERAGE major league baseball salary was over $4 million
10) Refer back to #2

I just cannot believe in 2021, with all we've discussed about the lack of interest in baseball, how anyone associate with baseball would be for a work stoppage?? The whole concept of millionaires fighting billionaires is what turns the average fan off.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Um you said privately held companies...

1) Kid starts playing baseball because he "loves the game"
2) Kid is really good at baseball and decides to possibly make a career of it.
3) Kid's peers are making between $20,000 - $100,000 per year doing whatever they do
4) Kid gets drafted - if high enough gets a big signing bonus
5) Refer back to #2
6) Kid progresses gets to the majors - major league minimum $550,000, possibly signs endorsement deals making much more.
7) Refer back to #2
8) Player hits arbitration, minimum salary for arb eligible players well over $1 million per year.
9) In 2020, the AVERAGE major league baseball salary was over $4 million
10) Refer back to #2

I just cannot believe in 2021, with all we've discussed about the lack of interest in baseball, how anyone associate with baseball would be for a work stoppage?? The whole concept of millionaires fighting billionaires is what turns the average fan off.
LOL. Can you buy stock on the stock market for the Reds? No. They are privately held and therefore do not need to publish financial statements.

More LOL. We were discussing your claim that teams are losing money. I explained why we don't know that information. What does a kid playing baseball and average salaries have to do have to do with what we were discussing? So illogical - I cannot have a discussion with you - I'm out.

PS. No one wants a work stoppage. But the greed of the owners and the players associations will almost assuredly cause one.
 

14Red

Well-known member
PS. No one wants a work stoppage. But the greed of the owners and the players associations will almost assuredly cause one.

Now...you FINALLY said something we can agree upon.

BTW, why it's relevant is these guys are playing a GAME and some are making generational wealth!!! They don't have any risk in the teams they play for, all they do is demand salaries. And if they don't get their way they take their ball and go home?? Heck, I'd like to see a pro sports league call their bluff. There are plenty of guys in the minors who would love to play baseball at the major league level. Let the current major leaguers sit for a year or two making nothing we'll see what happens.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Well that didn't take long. Reds sent veteran catcher Tucker Barnhart to the Tigers for a minor league infielder. Tyler Stephenson will be your everyday catcher for the Reds next season.
 

Gh0st

Well-known member
Now...you FINALLY said something we can agree upon.

BTW, why it's relevant is these guys are playing a GAME and some are making generational wealth!!! They don't have any risk in the teams they play for, all they do is demand salaries. And if they don't get their way they take their ball and go home?? Heck, I'd like to see a pro sports league call their bluff. There are plenty of guys in the minors who would love to play baseball at the major league level. Let the current major leaguers sit for a year or two making nothing we'll see what happens.

They don't have risk? A lot of them forego earning college degrees to get drafted out of high school. If they're lucky, they'll play from about 18 until 40 (40 is generous). They are making money that will last them a lifetime in the span of about 20 years. A career ending injury at 28 years old is a huge risk. Or how about just never making it?
 

14Red

Well-known member
They don't have risk? A lot of them forego earning college degrees to get drafted out of high school. If they're lucky, they'll play from about 18 until 40 (40 is generous). They are making money that will last them a lifetime in the span of about 20 years. A career ending injury at 28 years old is a huge risk. Or how about just never making it?
Forgo??? I think you're looking at it like they are being forced to play baseball??? Their God given talent certainly opens that door, but THE PLAYER signs up to make peanuts in the minors with the hope of getting a big deal someday. Remember, this is America and you have choices. There was a time, back before the 70's when many men made a choice to either play pro baseball (that didn't pay much) or get married have a family. Playing pro ball wasn't lucrative.
My guess is most of the guys drafted out of high school who don't go to college are not college students anyway.
And another point, so it's pro baseball teams responsibility to pay people generational wealth? They can't work after their playing days? Not many careers work this way.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Forgo??? I think you're looking at it like they are being forced to play baseball??? Their God given talent certainly opens that door, but THE PLAYER signs up to make peanuts in the minors with the hope of getting a big deal someday. Remember, this is America and you have choices. There was a time, back before the 70's when many men made a choice to either play pro baseball (that didn't pay much) or get married have a family. Playing pro ball wasn't lucrative.
My guess is most of the guys drafted out of high school who don't go to college are not college students anyway.
And another point, so it's pro baseball teams responsibility to pay people generational wealth? They can't work after their playing days? Not many careers work this way.
Yeah, most kids in the minor leagues make bupkus. Did see where they will be provided housing, or a housing stipend now.

Many deals also include a college $$ clause for when they dont make it.

To be quite honest, if MLB went on strike I wouldnt miss it one bit.
 

Gh0st

Well-known member
Forgo??? I think you're looking at it like they are being forced to play baseball??? Their God given talent certainly opens that door, but THE PLAYER signs up to make peanuts in the minors with the hope of getting a big deal someday. Remember, this is America and you have choices. There was a time, back before the 70's when many men made a choice to either play pro baseball (that didn't pay much) or get married have a family. Playing pro ball wasn't lucrative.
My guess is most of the guys drafted out of high school who don't go to college are not college students anyway.
And another point, so it's pro baseball teams responsibility to pay people generational wealth? They can't work after their playing days? Not many careers work this way.
Nobody said they were forced and you completely missed the point of my post. It is their decision, but it is certainly one that carries risk for the reasons mentioned that I don’t feel like repeating.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Nobody said they were forced and you completely missed the point of my post. It is their decision, but it is certainly one that carries risk for the reasons mentioned that I don’t feel like repeating.
Yeah, 14Red has issues with reading comprehension. And vocabulary sometimes. Most of us know that "forgoing" does not mean forced.

Most of us understood your post, and I agree. A kid choosing to go into the minor leagues has plenty of risk, the biggest of which is the failure rate is really high. way over 90% of kids going into the minors never make it beyond the high A leagues, and make next to no money. My kid pitched in college and wasn't drafted, but he had a teammate taken in the 6th round by the Rockies. Nice signing bonus, over 6 figures. I saw this kid play plenty (pitcher and SS) and I would have bet money he would make it - he was amazing.

But his base pay in the rookie and A leagues was next to nothing. Kicked around the minors a couple of years and then needed Tommy John surgery. Pitched in the A leagues a couple more years and ended up in dental school 5 years later than he would have if he stayed in college. So yeah, he took a risk to live out his dream, and it cost him quite a lot - 5 years of a dentist's salary.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Nobody said they were forced and you completely missed the point of my post. It is their decision, but it is certainly one that carries risk for the reasons mentioned that I don’t feel like repeating.
Doesn't every career path come with risks? I certainly think that.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Yeah, 14Red has issues with reading comprehension. And vocabulary sometimes. Most of us know that "forgoing" does not mean forced.

Most of us understood your post, and I agree. A kid choosing to go into the minor leagues has plenty of risk, the biggest of which is the failure rate is really high. way over 90% of kids going into the minors never make it beyond the high A leagues, and make next to no money. My kid pitched in college and wasn't drafted, but he had a teammate taken in the 6th round by the Rockies. Nice signing bonus, over 6 figures. I saw this kid play plenty (pitcher and SS) and I would have bet money he would make it - he was amazing.

But his base pay in the rookie and A leagues was next to nothing. Kicked around the minors a couple of years and then needed Tommy John surgery. Pitched in the A leagues a couple more years and ended up in dental school 5 years later than he would have if he stayed in college. So yeah, he took a risk to live out his dream, and it cost him quite a lot - 5 years of a dentist's salary.
And what a wonderful story. This kid had enough gumption and obviously smarts to become a dentist!! I'd say most baseball flunkies never get that opportunity. Now my guess is he could have forgone the 90% fail rate of being a major leaguer and went into dentistry immediately, which I'd guess has a much higher success rate.

How about we change one word that means more to us..."gamble". It's a gamble when these kids pick pro baseball over college when they are 18 years old. As you said, odds are against them, especially pitchers. Now if you get a big enough signing bonus, and you're smart you bank or invest it and you've got a college safety net to fall on. But most don't get big enough signing bonuses to make that a decision.
 

14Red

Well-known member
So back onto matters at hand. So to the surprise of no one, Nick Castellanos has opted out and will test free agency.

Also as many suspected, Tucker Barnhart will no longer be a Red. But what a story he has. Here's a kid who was picked by the Reds in the 10th round in the 2009 draft, 299th overall. Signed with the Reds, opting out of playing at Georgia Tech. I don't know that Tucker was every projected to be a starting major league catcher. The Reds had a young Devin Mesoraco as their catcher of the future and Barnhart was your typical great defense/ no hit catcher prospect. Well, we know what happened to Mesoraco and Tucker got a chance to play in '14 and '15. The Reds were deep into a rebuild so Tucker earned the starting catching job, signed a 4 year extension which was team friendly and earned two gold gloves since. He's never been a great hitter, but that doesn't tell the whole story. I think much of the success of any Reds pitchers over the last 6-7 years has to be attributed to Tucker Barnhart calling games. There hasn't been a better clubhouse/ teammate that I can recall as a Red. Tucker always gave great interviews and was pretty candid with what was good and bad with the pitcher that day. He would be the consumate professional.
 
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