Seems like a stupid little game to play, but it's slow so what the heck.
Who are the elite teams SLC has beaten this year.
6-5 Flower Mound?
8-3 Heritage?
8-4 Cedar Hill?
6-5 Rockwall?
Have we proven anything yet?
pied,ridgepride and any other Texan
- Thread starter steeler 01
- Start date
Seems like a stupid little game to play, but it's slow so what the heck.
Who are the elite teams SLC has beaten this year.
6-5 Flower Mound?
8-3 Heritage?
8-4 Cedar Hill?
6-5 Rockwall?
Have we proven anything yet?
To be clear, where do you rank MNW in FL in '06?
More importantly where do you rank them in '07?
I'd rank SLC #1 in '06 above Cedar Hill. I would have had Trinity #3 last year.
This year give me Permian/Katy followed SLC/Trinity. I'd have Abilene/SV/Plano/Bowie/Longview right behind them.
For the record SLC has played none of these teams yet.
This year, they have not beaten any elite Texas teams. Last year, they certainly did. And, in Texas much moreso than Florida, nearly all of the top teams play in 5A. So, winning the state title neccesarily means you have gone through the best in the state. You look at who is supposed to contend with SLC as the state's best this year, and its mainly Katy and Permian. SLC beat Katy in 2005 and Permian last year. Sure, those teams may have changed some since then, but its not like SLC has been seaquestered (sp) away from those teams the way MNW has been in Dade within Florida.
A lot of it depends on how wide, if you will, the classes are.
In Illinois, there are 8 classes for 520 or so schools. So there are a lot of blowout championship games, and often, the best team in the state (subjective, I know) isn't in 8A. And a lot of great matchups between similar schools never happen.
I don't like the set-ups in states where that happens a lot. Florida is definitely one of those.
But I also like everyone to have at least a shot at a title, IF they do everything right (subjective again, I know).
So I don't really like the fact that in Texas, the best team is NEVER a 4A team (as far as I know). If no 4A team is ever the best, the smallest 5A teams don't really have a shot at a 5A title, probably.
Ohio may have it about right, as far as I can tell.
I think that sometimes the best team in the state should be in a lower classification, and the smallest teams in each class should have a reasonable shot at a title, but it shouldn't end up being pretty close to random as to which classification has the best team, as it is in Illinois and Florida (at least among the three or four highest classes).
In Illinois, there are 8 classes for 520 or so schools. So there are a lot of blowout championship games, and often, the best team in the state (subjective, I know) isn't in 8A. And a lot of great matchups between similar schools never happen.
I don't like the set-ups in states where that happens a lot. Florida is definitely one of those.
But I also like everyone to have at least a shot at a title, IF they do everything right (subjective again, I know).
So I don't really like the fact that in Texas, the best team is NEVER a 4A team (as far as I know). If no 4A team is ever the best, the smallest 5A teams don't really have a shot at a 5A title, probably.
Ohio may have it about right, as far as I can tell.
I think that sometimes the best team in the state should be in a lower classification, and the smallest teams in each class should have a reasonable shot at a title, but it shouldn't end up being pretty close to random as to which classification has the best team, as it is in Illinois and Florida (at least among the three or four highest classes).
In 2006, Tampa Plant, Lakeland and MNW all had equally strong claims to being the best team in Florida. To say one of those was THE best is unfounded.
It's too early to say for 2007. You can't argue them being #1, but there are other teams that have a claim as well and there is still football to be played. How do we know MNW is better than Osceola, STA, Armwood, BTW or Pahokee?
Certainly, SLC has a lot of football to play. All I'm saying is we've seen nothing to indicate the rest of the playoffs will turn out any differently than it has the past few years. Katy and Permian have certainly not proven themselves to be as good as SLC just yet.
Those weren't the questions. The questions were:
To be clear, where do you rank MNW in FL in '06?
More importantly where do you rank them in '07?
Ideally, you're right. Problem is, there has to be some way to group schools together for league and state competitions. It's not practical to have teams in vastly different groupings in different sports, and there's no way to predict what the best teams will actually be. The only objective predictor of which teams have a competitive advantage is enrollment. We all know there are several other factors that come into play in determining what the best teams will be, but measuring that objectively for purposes of classifying before a season is impossible. And you can't just let schools pick what level they play at for many reasons.
I think California is starting to get at the best approach in having a panel select teams for bowl games after the playoffs. The one change I would make is in allowing the same panel to pick the matchups regardless of enrollment.
Answers:
In 2006, Tampa Plant, Lakeland and MNW all had equally strong claims to being the best team in Florida. To say one of those was THE best is unfounded. So, MNW was in the top tier of three teams.
It's too early to say for 2007. You can't argue against them being #1, but there are other teams that have a claim as well and there is still football to be played. How do we know MNW is better than Osceola, STA, Armwood, BTW or Pahokee? So, it is undetermined where they rank at this point.
I am not talking about grouping teams by how good they are.
I am talking about grouping teams by enrollment -- with enough classes that the smaller schools in each class have a shot, and few enough classes that the best teams usually play each other.
Obviously, there is a (somewhat loose) correlation between quality and school size, otherwise there would be no need for classifications. But I think Illinois has too many, and Texas probably has too few (although it would be about right if the whole Division 1/Division 2 thing wasn't such a debacle).
I am talking about grouping teams by enrollment -- with enough classes that the smaller schools in each class have a shot, and few enough classes that the best teams usually play each other.
Obviously, there is a (somewhat loose) correlation between quality and school size, otherwise there would be no need for classifications. But I think Illinois has too many, and Texas probably has too few (although it would be about right if the whole Division 1/Division 2 thing wasn't such a debacle).
In '06 Cedar Hill/SLC had equally strong claims to being the best team in Texas. To say one of those team was THE best is unfounded. So, SLC was in the top tier of two teams.
It's too early to say for 2007. You can't argue against them being #1, but there are other teams that have a claim as well and there is still football to be played. How do we know SLC is better than Permian, Trinity, Katy, Plano or Bowie? So, it is undetermined where they rank at this point.
Wow that was easy.
One big difference between Texas and everyone else are the handling of Private schools. Most good small programs are private schools. Not the case in Texas. I am not saying it's right or wrong, but it is definitely not a apples to apples comparison.
In Illinois, they now have a multiplier for schools without enrollment boundaries (essentially, Catholic schools, and Mt. Carmel, Joliet Catholic, St. Rita, and that crowd are not happy about it).
Their enrollment gets multiplied by 1.65, I think (details are on ihsa.org), for determining their classification.
It's brutal for the Catholic schools that are not athletic powers. Talk all you want about Catholic schools with good athletic programs drawing from all over, but that's not the case for every Catholic school. And the ones that are mediocre, just squeeze into the playoffs, and have to play up one or two or three classes are just thrilled with the idea.
Their enrollment gets multiplied by 1.65, I think (details are on ihsa.org), for determining their classification.
It's brutal for the Catholic schools that are not athletic powers. Talk all you want about Catholic schools with good athletic programs drawing from all over, but that's not the case for every Catholic school. And the ones that are mediocre, just squeeze into the playoffs, and have to play up one or two or three classes are just thrilled with the idea.
RidgePride
New member
Also, The Texas UIL has much stricter transfer rules. In Florida - Dade County, it is basically open enrollment. Just imagine if SLC could pull from the surrounding areas instead of within a few mile radius.
Trinity is about 13 miles from Southlake Carroll.
The Private school thing like you state is also a bonus for many states.
This is a quote from BIGDOGG out of Miami posted on 5aTexas football
"With Floridas no kid left behind law it allows a kid to transfer to where they want to go. thats what they allow so kids take advantage of it.they may fill they have a better chance of getting a scholaship if they play for a winning school, and as to a big drop off after MNW & BTW some truth to it."
I would bet a bunch of Euless Trinity Kids would go to SLC for a better chance at a scholarship.
Kind of like if they pulled the soph WR out of a neighboring school that was the District newcomer of the year or something like that.
Just kidding. No reason to believe there was anything wrong w/Cantu.
Just to clarify, I didn't call the Private school thing was a bonus, simply pointing out differences.
RidgePride
New member
The problem as I see it is that all these out of state haters of SLC want to discredit the past accomplishments of SLC.
They look at the MNW loss as proof that Southlake is a national overhyped team and that SLC has been overhyped for years.
All I hear is - that SLC is dominating TX the same way they have for years and MNW beat them. So that there proves the previous years would have been the same if SLC played any out of state powers.
IMO - That thinking is entirely narrow minded. MNW 07 beating SLC 07 does not prove that 04-05-06 SLC could not have been #1 nationally.
2006 Euless Trinity could have beaten Odessa Permian. 2007 Odessa Permian beat Trinity 30-3.
Trinity is still dominating everyone in their path.
In all reality there have not been too many teams as loaded as this MNW 07 team over the last 5 years. Was SLC the #1 team in the nation as the mythical title suggests in previous years??? who knows, but SLC has remained at least a top 5 national team the last 3-5 years. I don't think many other teams in the nation can make that claim.
They look at the MNW loss as proof that Southlake is a national overhyped team and that SLC has been overhyped for years.
All I hear is - that SLC is dominating TX the same way they have for years and MNW beat them. So that there proves the previous years would have been the same if SLC played any out of state powers.
IMO - That thinking is entirely narrow minded. MNW 07 beating SLC 07 does not prove that 04-05-06 SLC could not have been #1 nationally.
2006 Euless Trinity could have beaten Odessa Permian. 2007 Odessa Permian beat Trinity 30-3.
Trinity is still dominating everyone in their path.
In all reality there have not been too many teams as loaded as this MNW 07 team over the last 5 years. Was SLC the #1 team in the nation as the mythical title suggests in previous years??? who knows, but SLC has remained at least a top 5 national team the last 3-5 years. I don't think many other teams in the nation can make that claim.
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RP-I agree with a lot of what you are saying. MNW may be an all time great, may not. In my mind they gave SLC HUGE matchup issues from the announcement of the game.
I thought that the Dragons matched up much better w/DLS and stated so several times. The way things have played out, that may not have been accurate, who knows. DLS is playing some great ball right now and has been all season.
In many ways MNW was the perfect team to beat SLC this year. Juries still out in my opinion if they win it all, but they do appear to be improving as the season goes on w/out key players.
We'll see.
I thought that the Dragons matched up much better w/DLS and stated so several times. The way things have played out, that may not have been accurate, who knows. DLS is playing some great ball right now and has been all season.
In many ways MNW was the perfect team to beat SLC this year. Juries still out in my opinion if they win it all, but they do appear to be improving as the season goes on w/out key players.
We'll see.
RidgePride
New member
I am not saying MNW is an all time National Great. But they do have a special team - they also had it last year. From watching Florida's Booker T Washington, I think they are up there with MNW.
However, as stated previously it is basically open enrollment so all the athletes congregate to those two schools.
The schools that are in SLC's league are either Private schools - open enrollment schools - or they are from Texas.
Southlake has a very narrow base by comparison to make up its football team - roughly 2400 students 9-12 male and female - and all have to live in the attendence zone.
However, as stated previously it is basically open enrollment so all the athletes congregate to those two schools.
The schools that are in SLC's league are either Private schools - open enrollment schools - or they are from Texas.
Southlake has a very narrow base by comparison to make up its football team - roughly 2400 students 9-12 male and female - and all have to live in the attendence zone.
Maybe they are.
If SLC continues to roll big time and wins the title and MNW does as well, is there another team that can claim to have a win as big as the one on 9/15?
DLS went played ECA at home. Forgive me but they were down, and I don't consider St. Louis to be the same level as TX.
Most of the Ohio big OOS wins were in Ohio.
Anyone else have any comparisons?
Who's with me when I say that today 07 SLC would beat 07 MNW?
Anyone?
OK, perhaps it's only me who believes that (but I do believe it).
SLC almost beat MNW with something like 14-15 players who were starting their 2nd varsity game. They couldn't protect Riley or block for Tre. 5 turnovers were committed yet the game was still not decided until late in the 4th. If the game was played today, I say SLC wins.
The SLC team on the field today would slaughter the SLC team of 9/15. I've watched most of the games this year.
I just hope we can beat Abilene.
Funny you bring that up now, when I tried to bring up similar points from Feb-Aug I was laughed off the board......
I didn't know SLC would have 3 starting offensive linemen and a starting linebacker injured back in Feb.
But, yeah, you were right.
RidgePride
New member
Both teams may have improved but SLC had the most improving to do since MNW was already basically a veteran team and SLC had almost an entire new defense (having to play a state championship type game) in its second game. Also - SLC was missing a few Offensive lineman when they played MNW.
I personally would call a rematch game a toss up. I could see MNW winning again - I could also see where SLC could win.
I've posted many times (long before the SLC/MNW game) that games in weeks 1, 2 or 3 don't mean much. That's especially true at the high school level where the turnover of players each year is so high. Games in weeks 13, 14, 15 or 16 are the ones that count.
We all knew it was a foregone conclusion that, regardless of the outcome of MNW-SLC, the loser would say a rematch would yield different results. Never mind that MNW had an entirely new coaching staff and several new players starting as well. SLC also should very much be called a veteran team. Nonetheless, we can't possibly dispute any such claims since they are entirely hypothetical. So, hypothetically, I'll say MNW would beat SLC worse a second time around. Especially if the game was not played in front of 30,000 SLC supporters.
consumerman
New member
About a year ago, I would I have said SLC easily beats DLS in 2007, maybe by 11-16 points
There is a long way to go for both DLS and SLC this year (as well as MNW) but based on the performance of both teams so far, (DLS has outscored its 11 opponents 338-21 in the first half this year, I believe SLC gave up 21 in the first Q against 6-5 Grapevine) I would not make the same prediction, in fact I think DLS could beat SLC by 7-10.
Again, that is NOT wat I expected going into this year.
DLS seems to have a chip on their shoulder after being upset by Canyon last year.
Certainly the young Dragon secondary is better and the team like all good teams do, has improved as the season has progressed. If the game were played today, what are the Dragons doing better? Well, Tre has been out the last two games and was pretty ineffective at the time, so I can't see him being a difference in a rematch today. Certainly if a few breaks went SLC's way they could win, but I can't think of much that would convince me to pick the Dragons.
That and the new and improved offense.
WoodyHayes
homesick
I Agree
1 - DLS handles SLC by around 10-14 points
2 - Any arrogant fan that believes SLC would beat MNW if they played again is a true "homer" MNW does not make the UNFORCED errors in the game and if SLC travels to FLA instead of the other way around, I would look for a 21 point MNW victory. MNW adjusted at half and SHUT THEM OUT! You want to play them again? LOL. LOL. Riley Dodge got exposed during that game. If Papa plays him at QB he will win less games than he did this year. Lets be honest. Chase Daniel is a big time QB. Riley Dodge is not.
being a very neutral and unbiased observer, I believe,
1 - DLS handles SLC by around 10-14 points
2 - Any arrogant fan that believes SLC would beat MNW if they played again is a true "homer" MNW does not make the UNFORCED errors in the game and if SLC travels to FLA instead of the other way around, I would look for a 21 point MNW victory. MNW adjusted at half and SHUT THEM OUT! You want to play them again? LOL. LOL. Riley Dodge got exposed during that game. If Papa plays him at QB he will win less games than he did this year. Lets be honest. Chase Daniel is a big time QB. Riley Dodge is not.
consumerman
New member
MNW adjusted at half and SHUT THEM OUT!
That is a point many overlook
That is a point many overlook