Ask The Ump?

With regard to the play in the top of the 7th in the Hiland vs Calvert game...How does the rule read with regard to a catch and the transfer of the ball out of the glove? Is there any time element involved, i.e., if the attempted transfer is made right away (as was the case here) vs if the fielder had waited a few seconds?
 
Ericles said:
With regard to the play in the top of the 7th in the Hiland vs Calvert game...How does the rule read with regard to a catch and the transfer of the ball out of the glove? Is there any time element involved, i.e., if the attempted transfer is made right away (as was the case here) vs if the fielder had waited a few seconds?
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Here's the definition of a catch..... (Rule 2-9-1) I bolded in red the applicable part of the rule to this play.....

- A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a live ball in flight and firmly holding it, provided he does not use his cap, protector, mask, pocket or other part of his uniform to trap the ball.

- The catch of a fly ball by a fielder is not completed until the continuing action of the catch is completed. A fielder who catches a ball and then runs into a wall or another player and drops the ball has not made a catch. A fielder, at full speed, who catches a ball and whose initial momentum carries him several more yards after which the ball drops from his glove has not made a catch.

- When the fielder, by his action of stopping, removing the ball from his glove, etc., signifies the initial action is completed and then drops the ball, will be judged to have made the catch. The same definition of a catch would apply when making a double play.

- It is considered a catch if a fielder catches a fair or foul ball and then steps or falls into a bench, dugout, stand, bleacher or over any boundary or barrier, such as a fence, rope, chalk line, or a pregame determined imaginary boundary line from the field of play. Falling into does not include merely running against such object. (See 2-24-4 for fielder juggling ball and 8-4-1c for intentionally dropped ball; 2-16-2 and 5-1-1d for ball striking catcher before touching his glove.)

- It is not a catch when a fielder touches a batted ball in flight which then contacts a member of the offensive team or an umpire and is then caught by a defensive player.

Since the 1st Base Umpire judged that either the ball was not secure in the glove before he attempted to remove the ball from his glove or he did not stop and remove the ball from his glove, it does not meet the criteria set forth by rule to be a catch.

Since none of us were standing there when the explanation was given to the coach, all that's left is speculation. (I was told what the reason was communicated to the coach, but that's second hand information and not always reliable)
 
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Heath vs Harrison Central. Heath batting in the bottom of the 6th, down 2-1.

Runners on 1B & 2B, 2 outs. Pitcher in the stretch. Runners double steal. Pitcher lifts his front foot & throws to 3B. Did NOT step off. No balk called. Runner tagged out in a rundown to end the inning.

I just re-watched it on NFHS Network, and the pitcher definitely did NOT step off. Big missed no-call by all 4 umpires at a crucial moment in a state semifinal. Unless I'm missing something?
 
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thePITman said:
Heath vs Harrison Central. Heath batting in the bottom of the 6th, down 2-1.

Runners on 1B & 2B, 2 outs. Pitcher in the stretch. Runners double steal. Pitcher lifts his front foot & throws to 3B. Did NOT step off. No balk called. Runner tagged out in a rundown to end the inning.
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Is there a question? This is legal as long as F1 used a continuous motion
 

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CoachHoversten said:
You can throw to a base a runner is advancing to
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Very interesting. I never knew that!

So, if a runner is on 2nd base and attempts to steal 3rd, you can throw to 3rd base from the stretch without stepping off the rubber.

Question: If a runner is on 1st base and attempts to steal 2nd, can a pitcher do an "inside move" and throw to 2nd base without stepping off the rubber?
 
thePITman said:
Very interesting. I never knew that!

So, if a runner is on 2nd base and attempts to steal 3rd, you can throw to 3rd base from the stretch without stepping off the rubber.

Question: If a runner is on 1st base and attempts to steal 2nd, can a pitcher do an "inside move" and throw to 2nd base without stepping off the rubber?
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Technically yes, but this would be very difficult to do with zero hitch/pause/flinch.

In my opinion, the only way to do this would be to “guess” ahead of time the runner is stealing and correctly execute it, knowing it’s a balk if you’re wrong.

I’ve never seen a pitcher, even at the professional level, do this, so I sincerely doubt a HS aged pitcher could begin his delivery , hear “he’s going!!”, and change his intention from throwing a pitch to executing a turn and step to second with no disruption/pause/flinch.
 
thePITman said:
I did not think a pitcher could throw to an unoccupied base. Runners were on 1st and 2nd, and he threw to 3rd.
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Here's the Official Rule Interpretation from 2013 that permits this....

SITUATION 20: With runners at first base and second base, the runner at second bluffs a steal of third by running hard to third before he stops and retreats back to second base. The pitcher, seeing the runner take off hard to third base, legally throws to the unoccupied third base. The third-base coach wants a balk called on the pitcher since the runner from second stopped.

RULING: A pitcher may throw or feint a throw to an unoccupied base in an attempt to put out or drive back a runner. As long as the umpire judges that it is reasonable for the pitcher to believe he had a play at third, even though the runner stopped, it is a legal move. (6-2-4b)

Please note.... the pitcher must legally throw to the base. (bolded for emphasis)
 
AllSports12 said:
Here's the definition of a catch..... (Rule 2-9-1) I bolded in red the applicable part of the rule to this play.....

- A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a live ball in flight and firmly holding it, provided he does not use his cap, protector, mask, pocket or other part of his uniform to trap the ball.

- The catch of a fly ball by a fielder is not completed until the continuing action of the catch is completed. A fielder who catches a ball and then runs into a wall or another player and drops the ball has not made a catch. A fielder, at full speed, who catches a ball and whose initial momentum carries him several more yards after which the ball drops from his glove has not made a catch.

- When the fielder, by his action of stopping, removing the ball from his glove, etc., signifies the initial action is completed and then drops the ball, will be judged to have made the catch. The same definition of a catch would apply when making a double play.

- It is considered a catch if a fielder catches a fair or foul ball and then steps or falls into a bench, dugout, stand, bleacher or over any boundary or barrier, such as a fence, rope, chalk line, or a pregame determined imaginary boundary line from the field of play. Falling into does not include merely running against such object. (See 2-24-4 for fielder juggling ball and 8-4-1c for intentionally dropped ball; 2-16-2 and 5-1-1d for ball striking catcher before touching his glove.)

- It is not a catch when a fielder touches a batted ball in flight which then contacts a member of the offensive team or an umpire and is then caught by a defensive player.

Since the 1st Base Umpire judged that either the ball was not secure in the glove before he attempted to remove the ball from his glove or he did not stop and remove the ball from his glove, it does not meet the criteria set forth by rule to be a catch.

Since none of us were standing there when the explanation was given to the coach, all that's left is speculation. (I was told what the reason was communicated to the coach, but that's second hand information and not always reliable)
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I have since watched a different angle of that play and given the timing of it all, my very uneducated opinion says he didn't make the catch pursuant to the language of the rule.

That being said, this reminds me of the ending of the Anthony Wayne regional final game last week. The batter-runner in this case clearly crossed over the foul line in the instant following this play. So does he have the right to cross back into fair territory once it was ruled to have not been a catch?

For what it's worth....situations like this fascinate me.
 
Where did he step
Ericles said:
I have since watched a different angle of that play and given the timing of it all, my very uneducated opinion says he didn't make the catch pursuant to the language of the rule.

That being said, this reminds me of the ending of the Anthony Wayne regional final game last week. The batter-runner in this case clearly crossed over the foul line in the instant following this play. So does he have the right to cross back into fair territory once it was ruled to have not been a catch?

For what it's worth....situations like this fascinate me.
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Now think about all you’ve learned. Time to half the class and join us!
 
Ericles said:
The batter-runner in this case clearly crossed over the foul line in the instant following this play. So does he have the right to cross back into fair territory once it was ruled to have not been a catch?
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He could........ and then again, maybe not ;)

The rule states that the runner cannot obviously abandon his effort to reach the next base. Merely crossing the foul line doesn't automatically make it obvious.
Ericles said:
For what it's worth....situations like this fascinate me.
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That's why baseball is the greatest game.... Once you think you've seen it all, grab the popcorn and watch.
 
I've noticed with more turf fields used for Summer tournaments, players sliding into bases are sliding a little past them at times and really having to stretch to stay on them. What is the rule when a defender holds the tag on and appears to push the hand off the base just enough to try and get the out call?
 
UMU92 said:
I've noticed with more turf fields used for Summer tournaments, players sliding into bases are sliding a little past them at times and really having to stretch to stay on them. What is the rule when a defender holds the tag on and appears to push the hand off the base just enough to try and get the out call?
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Happens frequently on turf fields when it is wet.

If the umpire judges that the defender caused the runner to leave the base because of the force of the tag, then the runner should be ruled safe. If judged that the runner's momentum caused the him/her to leave the base, then the runner should be ruled out.
 
Mechanic Question (2-man)

Runner at 2nd and a base hit up the middle. As the PU, they should be watching the touch of 3rd by the runner from 2nd and possible obstruction by the 3rd baseman. CF comes up and tries to throw runner out at home. Ball sails over the close backstop. How do we see if the batter was on 1B by the time of the throw, because that will dictate base awards for him as where he will end up? Does the PU try to see the batter runner out the corner of his eye, or should the base umpire find the runner immediately when the CF releases the ball on the throw. 2 -man mechanics has some holes and is the a situation where we prioritize what we are looking for?
 
UMU92 said:
Mechanic Question (2-man)

Runner at 2nd and a base hit up the middle. As the PU, they should be watching the touch of 3rd by the runner from 2nd and possible obstruction by the 3rd baseman. CF comes up and tries to throw runner out at home. Ball sails over the close backstop. How do we see if the batter was on 1B by the time of the throw, because that will dictate base awards for him as where he will end up? Does the PU try to see the batter runner out the corner of his eye, or should the base umpire find the runner immediately when the CF releases the ball on the throw. 2 -man mechanics has some holes and is the a situation where we prioritize what we are looking for?
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PU has R2 and BU has the BR

BU has to not only watch the touch of 1st base, they also have to be aware of potential Obstruction by F3 against the BR…. All while trying to see when the time of the throw occurred. (Suggest that you drift back towards the front of the working area to open up the angle between 1st Base and F8…. Then put your head on a swivel)

This is a classic example of one of the many holes in a 2person crew. When push comes to shove and we have to prioritize, we always place the runner closest to home as the priority. (Not the case in this situation because each umpire has an assigned runner)
 
The pitcher has a play-callling wristband on his glove-side forearm. Half of the wristband is the same color as his jersey. The other half is clear, exposing the white sheet underneath. Is this legal?

Before the pitcher steps on the rubber, the coach calls out a number. Both the pitcher and catcher check their wristband. The pitcher steps on the rubber. The catcher gives no sign, and the pitcher pitches. It is obvious the coach is calling/signaling pitches to the pitcher prior to him stepping on the rubber. Is this legal?
 
thePITman said:
The pitcher has a play-callling wristband on his glove-side forearm. Half of the wristband is the same color as his jersey. The other half is clear, exposing the white sheet underneath. Is this legal?

Before the pitcher steps on the rubber, the coach calls out a number. Both the pitcher and catcher check their wristband. The pitcher steps on the rubber. The catcher gives no sign, and the pitcher pitches. It is obvious the coach is calling/signaling pitches to the pitcher prior to him stepping on the rubber. Is this legal?
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Before delving into this entirely I need clarification. When you say the pitcher steps on the rubber …and the pitcher pitches. Did he take a legal position first such as what he would have done to get a traditional sign or did he just step on the rubber and throw immediately?
 
thePITman said:
The pitcher has a play-callling wristband on his glove-side forearm. Half of the wristband is the same color as his jersey. The other half is clear, exposing the white sheet underneath. Is this legal?
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Here's the 2022 NFHS Official Interpretation that addresses this part of your question.

SITUATION 11: The pitcher is wearing — on the non-throwing arm — a black, non-distracting sweatband which contains pitch and defensive signals that the pitcher wears under a Velcro flap. The opposing coach insists that the pitcher must remove the sweatband from the non-throwing arm.

RULING: The wearing of this sweatband is legal as it is not distracting to the batter. (1- 4-2, 6-2-1f)
 
thePITman said:
Before the pitcher steps on the rubber, the coach calls out a number. Both the pitcher and catcher check their wristband. The pitcher steps on the rubber. The catcher gives no sign, and the pitcher pitches. It is obvious the coach is calling/signaling pitches to the pitcher prior to him stepping on the rubber. Is this legal?
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And here's the 2022 NFHS Official Interpretation that addresses this part of your question...

SITUATION 13: To communicate defensive and pitch signals, the home team uses posters that have emblems, colors and icons. The pitcher looks to the dugout, sees the team pointing to various parts of the posters and gets the sign for the next pitch. The pitcher now legally gets on the pitching plate, and without looking at the catcher begins the pitching motion.

RULING: This is an illegal pitch. A pitcher is required to take the sign or simulate taking the sign from the catcher when legally on the pitching plate. (6-1-1)

With the change that was made prior to the 2022 season, taking signs off the pitcher's plate is now legal provided the pitcher takes a sign or simulates taking a sign (if he pauses, that meets the requirement) before he/she begins their motion after stepping onto the pitcher's plate.
 
umpire16 said:
Before delving into this entirely I need clarification. When you say the pitcher steps on the rubber …and the pitcher pitches. Did he take a legal position first such as what he would have done to get a traditional sign or did he just step on the rubber and throw immediately?
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AllSports12 said:
And here's the 2022 NFHS Official Interpretation that addresses this part of your question...

SITUATION 13: To communicate defensive and pitch signals, the home team uses posters that have emblems, colors and icons. The pitcher looks to the dugout, sees the team pointing to various parts of the posters and gets the sign for the next pitch. The pitcher now legally gets on the pitching plate, and without looking at the catcher begins the pitching motion.

RULING: This is an illegal pitch. A pitcher is required to take the sign or simulate taking the sign from the catcher when legally on the pitching plate. (6-1-1)

With the change that was made prior to the 2022 season, taking signs off the pitcher's plate is now legal provided the pitcher takes a sign or simulates taking a sign (if he pauses, that meets the requirement) before he/she begins their motion after stepping onto the pitcher's plate.
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Thank you both.

I thought about clarifying this in my initial post, and it appears I should have. When there was a runner on base (from the stretch), the pitcher would step on the rubber, lean forward, then set, then pitch. But the catcher never gave a sign. It sounds as if this is legal now, so long as the pitcher simulates receiving a sign after on the rubber.

When he was from the windup, it was hit or miss on his timing. But he wasn't stepping on and quick pitching.

So, legal all around, it sounds like. Thank you.

And also kudos to our home plate umpire for letting it go all game with no issue. By the way, our ump is regarded as one of the best in the state, having done several OHSAA state tournament games including a state championship and a Division I State semifinal.
 
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All, I am working with a local tournament we assign games for all summer to develop a Top Ten List of sorts of rules that are commonly missed or misunderstood by fans and coaches. While I would prefer the organization to better police itself, we've had some issues with teams playing in these tournaments and their coaches lacking fundamental rules knowledge. I commend the leadership for asking this piece as a bridge and am glad to assist. I've already reached out to the officials I use, but I wanted to expand further to the collective brainpower.

There are many resources out there I could use to make this list (and in fact, lists themselves). Since this is an Ohio program, Ohio tournaments, and this an Ohio page, what say you Yappsters as to commonly missed or misunderstood rules? The tourney uses NFHS rules with only modifications for run rules, allowance of an EH, and time limits. They also use the OHSAA pitch count rules.

Based on the ejection reports thus far (with all rules handled correctly by umpires), here is my working list (in no particular order). It also includes a couple of mechanics situations. Please recommend others that may either add to the list (even if more than 10) or replace those on it. And while some of these seem obvious (and almost disappointingly obvious), they are causing issues and the lack of understanding at scale is, well, a separate issue.
  1. Balks being an immediate dead ball in HS rules/The fake to third throw to first move is legal still
  2. A ground ball hitting a base is a fair ball.
  3. Hit by pitch rule (as to the batter's responsibility)
  4. Pitching positions that are legal versus illegal
  5. Awarding of bases when obstruction occurs
  6. Base Umpire having all plays in the infield when the ball stays in the infield
  7. Infield Fly Rule and the ability for runners to advance.

Thanks in advance!
 
@umpire16 Interesting discussion. Might I recommend just having a blanket statement? "If you are not a certified umpire, and/or all of your rules knowledge is based on watching MLB and listening to announcers, you are not permitted to argue".

In all seriousness though, this list could be exhaustingly long. Using yours, and thoughts that came to my mind:

1. Batters Interference - The only movement a batter is permitted to make is a swing. Any steps (towards plate or backwards), leans, falls, etc, make them liable for interference with a catcher. Even a follow through hitting the catcher is INT in high school rules.
  • The exception is when a runner is coming home (usually on wild pitch), the batter needs to get out of the way if time permits, which it does unless it is a suicide squeeze situation.

2. Rather than limiting what is fair to "the base is fair", say "all bases, including home plate, and both foul poles, are in fair territory".
  • I have called a home run on a ball that hit the foul pole in the air and the coach said "how do you not know that it hit the foul pole?"

3. Tie does not go to the runner on a force out - this sandlot rule causes many arguments on bang-bang plays, usually at first base...and let's not argue about "plays at first aren't a force out". I could go on a soapbox here b/c I know "it isn't", but when the batter hits the ball, by rule, they are forced to run to first but I digress

4. Speaking of force outs, how about the definition of what a force is? It is a situation put upon a runner, not the method in which they were put out.
  • Had a friend umpire a tourney game this past wknd, bases loaded 2 outs, grounder to third baseman, who tags r2. Coach argued vehemently that it wasn't a force because he was tagged out and the run should count (r3 had crossed home before tag)

  • While my example from this past wknd is more rare, the outs on appeals falls into this same category and is often misunderstood. Many think because you do not have to tag the runner to get the appeal, it is a force, which is incorrect.

5. You mentioned a mechanics issue...how about this one? The 3rd base coach has the best angle on plays at 3rd, in fact, he has the angle WE WANT but CAN NOT GET in 2-man. So stop arguing about close plays at third and our positioning b/c we have to take them from the working area.

6. "Runner must slide" - There is no rule in HS baseball that a runner must slide, at any base. They can not initiate contact or deviate to interfere or create contact, but they don't have to slide. Even umpires miss this, as I did NOT call a FPSR in a HS tourney last wknd bc the runner never impeded the fielder and the coach said "he has to slide" and I said, no he doesn't, that's a college rule, not HS, and coach said "last week we had 2 runners called out bc they didnt slide", and I said "not sliding makes them more liable for interference, but they still have to interfere with something to call it". So this a rule even amateur umpires misunderstand too, especially if they work in multiple rule sets.

These are just some things that have come into my head, I am sure I will think of plenty more later, but these are all things that tend to cause some issues more often than they should.
 
@CoachHoversten appreciate the list. To your comment on a blanket statement - they have one now about not being allowed to argue but I think I am going to mention your text. The impetus for this list is to be more of a resource to post on their site, send with reg packets, etc. to take a different approach. And while I think there is plenty of work to be done yet in educating folks, I'm being cautiously optimistic about its potential success.

These will be great additions. Like I said the initial list was solely based on ejections as a starting point but these are great. Thanks!

Side note: adding to your #5, I might also add that base coaches do have the best view of check swings when the BU is in B or C but we go with what we see/have.
 
Just occurred in the Reds game:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671579407939698688

Follow up questions:

1) Who officially is the third out? Is it the batter who just struck out, the runner coming from first, or the runner coming from third? This appeared to momentarily break the ESPN gametracker.

2) If there were 0 outs going into the at-bat, would the run be allowed to score?
 
oxat622 said:
Just occurred in the Reds game:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671579407939698688

Follow up questions:

1) Who officially is the third out? Is it the batter who just struck out, the runner coming from first, or the runner coming from third? This appeared to momentarily break the ESPN gametracker.

2) If there were 0 outs going into the at-bat, would the run be allowed to score?
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1) Which out occurred first? Batter is out on strike 3 (out #2), runner is out for the subsequent INT (out #3)

2) No run can score on INT unless the run legally scored before the INT took place on situations where INT is “time of occurrence”. Then there are INT that return runners to time of pitch, such as runners lane int and illegal slide at 2nd on double play. Neither would score the run here with 0 outs, runner would return to third.

speaking of RLI, add that to the list, hah
 
umpire16 said:
All, I am working with a local tournament we assign games for all summer to develop a Top Ten List of sorts of rules that are commonly missed or misunderstood by fans and coaches. While I would prefer the organization to better police itself, we've had some issues with teams playing in these tournaments and their coaches lacking fundamental rules knowledge. I commend the leadership for asking this piece as a bridge and am glad to assist. I've already reached out to the officials I use, but I wanted to expand further to the collective brainpower.

There are many resources out there I could use to make this list (and in fact, lists themselves). Since this is an Ohio program, Ohio tournaments, and this an Ohio page, what say you Yappsters as to commonly missed or misunderstood rules? The tourney uses NFHS rules with only modifications for run rules, allowance of an EH, and time limits. They also use the OHSAA pitch count rules.

Based on the ejection reports thus far (with all rules handled correctly by umpires), here is my working list (in no particular order). It also includes a couple of mechanics situations. Please recommend others that may either add to the list (even if more than 10) or replace those on it. And while some of these seem obvious (and almost disappointingly obvious), they are causing issues and the lack of understanding at scale is, well, a separate issue.
  1. Balks being an immediate dead ball in HS rules/The fake to third throw to first move is legal still
  2. A ground ball hitting a base is a fair ball.
  3. Hit by pitch rule (as to the batter's responsibility)
  4. Pitching positions that are legal versus illegal
  5. Awarding of bases when obstruction occurs
  6. Base Umpire having all plays in the infield when the ball stays in the infield
  7. Infield Fly Rule and the ability for runners to advance.

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
A good one to add is the number of defensive conferences that are allowable. Often times I hear coaches citing the MLB rules and don't understand the NFHS rules.
 
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