CatDog
Active member
Ref threw the flag then picked it up after they huddled. Just wasn't sure. Thank you.
Ask The Ref?
- Thread starter Yappi
- Start date
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
2 questions.
If a player is required to sit out a play (loses helmet, etc) and a play is run but negated by penalty, is he allowed to return?
On leagues that have replay, does a penalty being called before the next snap (ie false start) make the previous play no longer reviewable?
If a player is required to sit out a play (loses helmet, etc) and a play is run but negated by penalty, is he allowed to return?
On leagues that have replay, does a penalty being called before the next snap (ie false start) make the previous play no longer reviewable?
He can return.
No league has replay. By rule, it is only allowed in post-season tournaments. Ohio only uses it in the state final.
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
In this case I was more referring to NCAA or NFL
AllSports12
Moderator
Have to clarify here….
If that player does not momentarily come inside the 9yd marks (top of the numbers) before he becomes set… it a a foul for illegal formation.
CatDog
Active member
He did not do so. He lined up at receiver well outside the numbers.
So we have two penalties on this play one on each team. The first is a block in the back on the receiving team. The second, as seen below, is a personal foul, late hit by the punter. Penalties offset, replay the down.
So I have 2 questions
1) If a ball carrier steps out of bounds and then continues to run in the field of play as if he stayed in bounds, and the officials are late in blowing the whistle, is it a foul to tackle the ball carrier?
In short, should this play have been a late hit?
2) I was under the impression since it was a late hit, and you can hear on the broadcast of the game that it was a late hit, along with a live ball foul, that you would enforce both penalties, 10 yards from the spot of the foul on the receiving team, then 15 yards on the kicking team. Was this correctly enforced as offsetting like it was last night?
So I have 2 questions
1) If a ball carrier steps out of bounds and then continues to run in the field of play as if he stayed in bounds, and the officials are late in blowing the whistle, is it a foul to tackle the ball carrier?
In short, should this play have been a late hit?
2) I was under the impression since it was a late hit, and you can hear on the broadcast of the game that it was a late hit, along with a live ball foul, that you would enforce both penalties, 10 yards from the spot of the foul on the receiving team, then 15 yards on the kicking team. Was this correctly enforced as offsetting like it was last night?
AllSports12
Moderator
Based on that description, it should have been a live ball foul at the snap for illegal formation.
- In general, it's the responsibility of defenders to know when the ball is dead. We would give some leeway for the "tiptoe down the sidelines" where a toenail goes out. "Late whistle" is in the ear of the beholder. In the clip, I like the DB foul: that defender has a clear view of the runner and should have known that he was out.
- Your impression is correct: in HS football, a live ball foul cannot be paired with a dead ball foul to make a double foul (and offset the penalties). Not sure if your enforcement is correct: if team R's IBB (illegal block in the back) foul occurred during the kick, then it should be enforced from the end of the kick; if during the run, it would be enforced under all-but-one (either end of the run or spot of the foul, whichever is farther back). Then tack on 15 from there for team K's dead ball foul, set the chains, and R will have 1/10 from there (25 on the play clock).
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Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
Offsetting penalties happen on a play in which the game clock hits 0:00 in the 1st quarter. The officials' ruling was to replay the down as an untimed down to end the 1st quarter. Correct ruling, or should it have been replayed as a timed down to begin the 2nd quarter?
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It’s been awhile since I wore stripes but I saw a new one tonight that has me scratching my head. Team punts goes about 35 yards,team B player gives clear fair catch signal while backing up. Team B player falls backward punt clearly hits him in the hands and falls to the ground recovered by Team A. After a conference ball is taken back to the original line of scrimmage and the down is replayed. No flags no signals nothing the team A coach was just short of losing his mind but he did get some explanation.
AllSports12
Moderator
Correct ruling.....
Anytime there is a double foul during a down in which time expires, the result is an untimed down. (Rule 3-3-3b)
AllSports12
Moderator
Maybe the ball was not made ready for play? (although A snapping the ball would then be guilty of a delay of game foul)
Without talking the the R or the coach, we'd all be speculating what they replayed the down. (without returning the clock to where it was at the snap)
AllSports12
Moderator
- Second half.......... automatic by Ohio regulation
- First half......... optional if both head coaches agree.
Rich Blackburn
Active member
A runner is tackled in bounds with under 5 seconds remaining before halftime. The sideline official throws a flag for targeting by the defense, the penalty is enforced and the ball is set ready for play. When does the clock start?
Most of the time the game clock would start when the referee marks the ball ready for play but, "when a foul is committed with less than two minutes remaining in either half, the offended team will have the option to start the clock on the snap."
Thanks, was sad to see Aurora run the score up tp 55-0 before half with no running clock after about 2 minutes into the 2nd qtr vs Cuyahoga Falls.
There was a game last night nearby to me that went to a running clock after the first quarter and had 8 minute quarters with a running clock in the second half.
It was 46-0 after the 1st quarter and the final was 84-8.
Was not there but read that Aurora backups were already in the game in the second quarter. Can't tell the kids not to play hard.
Reddengineer
Active member
Rule 3-6-1a(1)e EXCEPTION 2, lol. Now, as I have posed the question to another official, is it the official’s job to offer, or the coach’s responsibility to know and ask?
zebrastripes
Well-known member
It is our job to advise the offended coach of his options on this just like on accepting/declining a penalty. Usually, the choice is obvious. Most coaches will not know this rule.
Note that the reverse is not true, i.e. the offended coach does not have an option to start the clock on the ready when it would otherwise start on the snap.
Reddengineer
Active member
Thank you.
To be real honest it hasn't happened for us but a few times.
It's our job to make sure the coach understands the penalty choices.
If it's obvious they are in 2 minute offense we just communicate among ourselves what we are going to do, just like most penalty options. If it's not clear we've asked.
I learned a new term: the offended team has a stoption. There's no such thing as an (awkward-sounding) 'startion'. (Helpful for officials who struggle to recall whether the offended team can start or stop the clock in this situation.)
simkon
Well-known member
Would anyone consider it a big deal if a team took possession of the football with 2:11 left in the 4th quarter, on 1st down they took a knee and ran off 42-43 seconds, on 2nd down they ran off an additional 42-43 seconds, on 3rd down they ran off 42-43 more seconds, which means they would have to snap the ball on 4th down with a second or two remaining in the game correct? What am I missing here? In the game in question, the game ended with 3 consecutive kneel downs by the QB and no 4th down play was run.
AllSports12
Moderator
Is there is rule question here?
simkon
Well-known member
Not sure how to explain it, but it seems that either the officials or clock operator made an error. The question is why wasn't there one or two seconds left in the game with the team with posession forced to run a 4th down play. Shouldn't there have been a delay of game penalty in theory?
AllSports12
Moderator
I have no idea why. I don't know how long it took for the QB to take the knee.... I don't know how long it took before the whistle was blown.... I don't know what the lag time from the dead ball to the start of the play clock was for not only these three plays, but for every play. Heck, I don't even know if there were visible play clocks. (which are run by amateur volunteers)
This is why we only entertain questions pertaining to rules and mechanics in this forum.
Snapping the ball and the QB kneeling takes time. The QB can hesitate. There is no rule requiring him to instantly kneel.
When the QB kneels it takes time for the officials to blow their whistle and raise their hand to signal the end of the play.
When a play ends the 40 second clock does not start for the next pay instantaneously. There is always a slight hesitation.
If that happens 3 times could it add up to 12 seconds? Sure.
I don't see any errors or rule violations by the officials or clock operator in your scenario.