Alamo renovation gets stuck over arguments about slavery

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
"...Texans are deeply divided over how, exactly, to remember the Alamo. A $450 million plan to renovate the site has devolved into a five-year brawl over whether to focus narrowly on the 1836 battle or present a fuller view that delves into the site’s Indigenous history and the role of slavery in the Texas Revolution.

Generations of Texas schoolchildren have been taught to admire the Alamo defenders as revolutionaries slaughtered by the Mexican army in the fight for Texas independence. But several were enslavers, including William B. Travis and Davy Crockett — an inconvenient fact in a state where textbooks have only acknowledged since 2018 that slavery was at issue in the Civil War.

...Key members of the state’s GOP leadership and some conservative groups are insisting that the renovation stay focused on the battle. A bill introduced by 10 Republican state lawmakers would bar the overhaul from citing any reasons for the Texas Revolution beyond those mentioned in the Texas Declaration of Independence — which does not include slavery."

 

thavoice

Well-known member
Hated the Alamo.

Didn't even have a basement.....


I forget which mission we went to after that but it wasn't far and it was much cooler than the Alamo. It was fully in tact and not the tourist trap of the Alamo.
As we walked around we heard music coming from the Church. Stopped in and it was a choir of HS kids from the upper Midwest. They took donations for their school. The curriculum at this HS was all.music related.

But anyway s.......the actual Alamo...... sucks. Don't go. Total tourist trap area.
 

Zunardo

Well-known member
I almost forgot the Alamo.

Went there a few years ago on an evening excursion during a work conference in San Antone. Kinda disappointing to discover what I thought was the Alamo structure was actually just the mission chapel, and that it was practically part of downtown. I had expected to see desolate desert and tumbling tumbleweeds. They did have some interesting historical info to show what part of the fort wall remained and where the rest was located, though. Didn't cost me anything, and they even fed us.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
Hated the Alamo.

Didn't even have a basement.....


I forget which mission we went to after that but it wasn't far and it was much cooler than the Alamo. It was fully in tact and not the tourist trap of the Alamo.
As we walked around we heard music coming from the Church. Stopped in and it was a choir of HS kids from the upper Midwest. They took donations for their school. The curriculum at this HS was all.music related.

But anyway s.......the actual Alamo...... sucks. Don't go. Total tourist trap area.
I thought it was alright. I enjoyed the history part of it. I didn't go into any of the shops around it or anything though. But I was there at the end of a business trip and just needed some down time as well and maybe that's why I didn't notice the tourist trap parts.

I do like San Antonio though.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
I thought it was alright. I enjoyed the history part of it. I didn't go into any of the shops around it or anything though. But I was there at the end of a business trip and just needed some down time as well and maybe that's why I didn't notice the tourist trap parts.

I do like San Antonio though.
We didn't do the surrounding traps. We sorta expected something like we saw at the other Mission we went to after that. I will have to ask my buddy which one we went to. That was much more what was expected than The Alamo.
 

NothingButTheTruth

Active member
An American, a Englishman, a Frenchman, and a Mexican were on a plane when the engine quit. With only one parachute between the four, the Englishman shouts "God save the queen" and sacrifices himself by jumping out the door to his death. The Frenchman does the same, shouting "God save the king". The American then says "Remember the Alamo" and pushes the Mexican out the door.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
$450 million!!! Wood costs are up. Steel costs are up. But plaster is still plaster. Crazy.

OT: sounds like the Texas version of the GOP is afraid of history? How do you talk about the battle without the context of the war? It was what it was.
 

Hammerdrill

Well-known member
$450 million!!! Wood costs are up. Steel costs are up. But plaster is still plaster. Crazy.

OT: sounds like the Texas version of the GOP is afraid of history? How do you talk about the battle without the context of the war? It was what it was.
Sounds to me like the liberals want to make it about race, shocking I know.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
$450 million!!! Wood costs are up. Steel costs are up. But plaster is still plaster. Crazy.

OT: sounds like the Texas version of the GOP is afraid of history? How do you talk about the battle without the context of the war? It was what it was.

It's the site of a famous battle in Texas AND American history. You focus on the Battle and then on why the American migrants in Texas rebelled against the Mexican government. That's it.

This was a war fought for Texan Independence and had little to nothing to do with slavery and absolutely nothing to do with the American Civil War war that took place 24 years later.
 

OldSoulon

Well-known member
An American, a Englishman, a Frenchman, and a Mexican were on a plane when the engine quit. With only one parachute between the four, the Englishman shouts "God save the queen" and sacrifices himself by jumping out the door to his death. The Frenchman does the same, shouting "God save the king". The American then says "Remember the Alamo" and pushes the Mexican out the door.
What do you call two Mexicans playing basketball?

Juan on Juan
 

OldSoulon

Well-known member
What do a billiard ball and a Mexican cab driver have in common?


The harder you hit them, the more English you get out of them


HAW HAW
 

isadore

Well-known member
It's the site of a famous battle in Texas AND American history. You focus on the Battle and then on why the American migrants in Texas rebelled against the Mexican government. That's it.

This was a war fought for Texan Independence and had little to nothing to do with slavery and absolutely nothing to do with the American Civil War war that took place 24 years later.
gosh a ruddies
one reason for the war
Mexico banned slavery
Southerners moving to Texas want to have slaves.
Leaders of the revolt largely slaveowners
 
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eastisbest

Well-known member
It's the site of a famous battle in Texas AND American history. You focus on the Battle and then on why the American migrants in Texas rebelled against the Mexican government. That's it.

This was a war fought for Texan Independence and had little to nothing to do with slavery and absolutely nothing to do with the American Civil War war that took place 24 years later.

You think the American Revolution was about Betsy Ross. 🤷 Adults can handle more than a few sound bites without letting it destroy their world. This battle took place in a context. Sorry that context upsets you. No I'm not. It was predicatable.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Sounds to me like the liberals want to make it about race, shocking I know.

You have a long history of listening with blinders and earplugs so, not surprising. Sounds like a FEW members of the Texas GOP cannot handle opposition but are quite happy to get 450 million in pork. Let's repeat that. 450 million! Open eyes. You're letting your podcasters blind you, while they pick your pocket. No one should be spending 450 million on this patch of land, regardless the spin anyone wants to put on it. That's 450,000 visitors just to get the cost down to $1000 per visit.

These clone idiots do not know what "conservative" means.
Conservatives would not be afraid of this historical context.
Conservatives would not look the other way while government spends more than a new patch job on this.
 

bigkat

Well-known member
Hated the Alamo.

Didn't even have a basement.....


I forget which mission we went to after that but it wasn't far and it was much cooler than the Alamo. It was fully in tact and not the tourist trap of the Alamo.
As we walked around we heard music coming from the Church. Stopped in and it was a choir of HS kids from the upper Midwest. They took donations for their school. The curriculum at this HS was all.music related.

But anyway s.......the actual Alamo...... sucks. Don't go. Total tourist trap area.
went there years ago... i bought the original racoon skin hat worn by davey Crockett ...... i got a signed piece of paper stating that by Davey himself.... got it for a bargain at $19.99.
 

D4fan

Well-known member
$450 million!!! Wood costs are up. Steel costs are up. But plaster is still plaster. Crazy.

OT: sounds like the Texas version of the GOP is afraid of history? How do you talk about the battle without the context of the war? It was what it was.
It "was what it was". Correct, I have been told all my life it was about independence and states rights. Sure slavery was one of those states rights, but it was not a central issue. Liberals have made it a central issue today long after the fact.

I personally don't care anymore. Its obvious today everything has to be about race, but there was a time when men fought over ideals and issues of states rights to make their own decisions without fear of federal government not sending them collected income tax money back because they wouldn't fall in line with building black roads with white lines.

Roads they say are a symbol of slavery, the black part represents the slaves that were driven over and subjected to misuse and pressure of a rolling society. The whites were the guiding lines at the edges to keep things from getting off track. Who makes this stuff up?

And the yellow linesin the middle of the road are a reminder of the transcontinental railway that was built largely by Asian workers. The places where there are dotted yellow lines and missing part of the lines are a stark reminder of the places where Asians fell to their death while constructing the railroad.
 
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chs1971

Well-known member
I've been the Alamo twice and enjoyed my visit both times, but ... I am a history teacher, and Texans make it clear that this is important to them.

Marxists, AKA Progressives, ruin everything.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
It "was what it was". Correct, I have been told all my life it was about independence and states rights. Sure slavery was one of those states rights, but it was not a central issue. Liberals have made it a central issue today long after the fact.
and they're fair to do so if that's what their constituents want. I don't blame them as long as anyone claiming slavery was not then a driving force in the economy in the early and mid 1800s. Texas would not be Texas if not for it.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
You think the American Revolution was about Betsy Ross. 🤷 Adults can handle more than a few sound bites without letting it destroy their world. This battle took place in a context. Sorry that context upsets you. No I'm not. It was predicatable.

Betsy Ross?!? The Alamo was one of the 2 biggest battles of the Texas revolution with the other being the Battle of San Jacinto.

Of course the Texas revolutionary war should be put in context. But since the site is the ALAMO the primary information should be about the tactics and results of that Battle. You also should talk about the impact the Alamo had on the Texan revolution and the character of the Texan people.

At this point and AFTER explaining the BATTLE you can touch on the broader topis like: Why did Americans migrate to Texas? what other Mexican provinces rebelled - did you know others did but less successfully? How did Mexico gaining independence from Spain plant the seeds for the Texas rebellion only 15 years later? How did Santa Anna violate the new Mexican constitution to trigger the uprising? What role did the USA play in the Texas rebellion during and in the immediate aftermath? How did the Texas revolution lead to the Mexican/American war of 1848?

All sorts of stuff could be discussed and it would take more then a few soundbites to cover it all. And after you finish covering these relevant & important topics of the Battle of the Alamo then you can talk about slavery which played no real role in the Battle or the Texans quest for independence.

It's predictable that you wouldn't know the history here.
 

D4fan

Well-known member
Betsy Ross?!? The Alamo was one of the 2 biggest battles of the Texas revolution with the other being the Battle of San Jacinto.

Of course the Texas revolutionary war should be put in context. But since the site is the ALAMO the primary information should be about the tactics and results of that Battle. You also should talk about the impact the Alamo had on the Texan revolution and the character of the Texan people.

At this point and AFTER explaining the BATTLE you can touch on the broader topis like: Why did Americans migrate to Texas? what other Mexican provinces rebelled - did you know others did but less successfully? How did Mexico gaining independence from Spain plant the seeds for the Texas rebellion only 15 years later? How did Santa Anna violate the new Mexican constitution to trigger the uprising? What role did the USA play in the Texas rebellion during and in the immediate aftermath? How did the Texas revolution lead to the Mexican/American war of 1848?

All sorts of stuff could be discussed and it would take more then a few soundbites to cover it all. And after you finish covering these relevant & important topics of the Battle of the Alamo then you can talk about slavery which played no real role in the Battle or the Texans quest for independence.

It's predictable that you wouldn't know the history here.
Agreed.

I have found my best way to get a glimpse into the attitude and thoughts of the day isn't from the facts or the interpretation of them, but another source that gets to the real heart of man. I have had access to church records of recorded minutes from meetings that occured from 1850 -1881. These minutes tell much of the turmoil of how southerners ( the minutes are from Virginia churches) viewed slaves and the people that held them. First, it is very apparent that to enslave another human, it helps your conscience to dehumanize them.

There are questions that came up wondering if blacks had souls that could be saved? Seems ludicrous today but these were people who relied on slave labor and they could likely sleep better if they viewed slaves more as animals and less as humans.

I bring this point up simply to state when Texas slave holders were pushed on the question of slave labor, they had dehumanized their captives to such an extent they saw government intrusion into the matter more along the lines of stealing collateral than protecting human life. Few people held slaves relative to the total population, but those who did had worked mental gymnastics to such an extent they felt no guilt for their actions.

Politics was no different then from today. Habits of the opposition are deplorable, but the opposition is not concerned with their habits as much as the other sides dislike for them over their habits.
 

y2h

Well-known member
You have a long history of listening with blinders and earplugs so, not surprising. Sounds like a FEW members of the Texas GOP cannot handle opposition but are quite happy to get 450 million in pork. Let's repeat that. 450 million! Open eyes. You're letting your podcasters blind you, while they pick your pocket. No one should be spending 450 million on this patch of land, regardless the spin anyone wants to put on it. That's 450,000 visitors just to get the cost down to $1000 per visit.

These clone idiots do not know what "conservative" means.
Conservatives would not be afraid of this historical context.
Conservatives would not look the other way while government spends more than a new patch job on this.
So you arent for infrastructure spending?

Liberals are afraid of history, thus why they are always revising it.
 

Purplemojo

Well-known member
I was very moved by my visit to the Alamo. I knew before hand that the city had grown up around the site. Still, to know what had happened within those walls, the bravery of hearing the Mexicans declaring that no quarter would be given and yet the men stood fast and died, not to win, not for a chance to go on living, but to just buy time for the fledging Texan army to prepare for battle.

I was told that the movie set for the 1960 film was also worth visiting, but, regrettably it had closed before I went to Texas. The set was a more complete depiction of the Alamo at the time of the battle and was located in a place that better simulated the terrain around the Alamo at the time of the battle.


I don't have a problem with learning about the treatment of Native Americans within the mission system, as long as it depicts the good as well as the bad, but the focus has to be on the battle that took place there. The social impact of the mission system might be better taught at the other mission sites in the San Antonio area.
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
I'm not sure I understand why anything negative would be displayed about the people defending the Alamo. I don't need to know that they beat their wives, had debts, stole from their neighbors, were atheists, or had extra-marital affairs. Stick to the story. Let the supporters show off their historical event.

It is just bizarre that people want to get a "dig" in about a historical event. This revisionist history is getting frustrating to deal with. Everyone has faults but when a major event happens, it should be celebrated.

These "people" probably called their Moms yesterday and said "Happy Mother's Day, but I still remember when you dropped me on my head when I was 4"
 

isadore

Well-known member
I'm not sure I understand why anything negative would be displayed about the people defending the Alamo. I don't need to know that they beat their wives, had debts, stole from their neighbors, were atheists, or had extra-marital affairs. Stick to the story. Let the supporters show off their historical event.

It is just bizarre that people want to get a "dig" in about a historical event. This revisionist history is getting frustrating to deal with. Everyone has faults but when a major event happens, it should be celebrated.

These "people" probably called their Moms yesterday and said "Happy Mother's Day, but I still remember when you dropped me on my head when I was 4"
gosh a ruddies, Jim Bowie had been a slave trader. He had tried to circumvent the law making it illegal to import slaves from Africa. That is pretty bad.
 

Purplemojo

Well-known member
FYI: Slavery was illegal in Texas, so there were no slaves at the Alamo or, technically, no where in Texas. As I said in another thread, Travis' former slave chose to continuing to work for COL Travis and was given the option to leave the Alamo with the women and children, He chose instead to stay and fight. He was a freeman and a hero of the Alamo and was the sole male survivor.

Slavery was irrelevant to the Battle of the Alamo and should only be mentioned as it relates to the heroics of Travis' former slave Joseph. I am afraid that does not fit the narrative that some want to push. As far as the treatment of the native population is concerned, there are other missions within walking distance of the Alamo and the issue would be best dealt with at that site.
 

Hammerdrill

Well-known member
N
You have a long history of listening with blinders and earplugs so, not surprising. Sounds like a FEW members of the Texas GOP cannot handle opposition but are quite happy to get 450 million in pork. Let's repeat that. 450 million! Open eyes. You're letting your podcasters blind you, while they pick your pocket. No one should be spending 450 million on this patch of land, regardless the spin anyone wants to put on it. That's 450,000 visitors just to get the cost down to $1000 per visit.

These clone idiots do not know what "conservative" means.
Conservatives would not be afraid of this historical context.
Conservatives would not look the other way while government spends more than a new patch job on this.
Nice straw man work there.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Betsy Ross?!? The Alamo was one of the 2 biggest battles of the Texas revolution with the other being the Battle of San Jacinto.

Of course the Texas revolutionary war should be put in context. But since the site is the ALAMO the primary information should be about the tactics and results of that Battle. You also should talk about the impact the Alamo had on the Texan revolution and the character of the Texan people.

At this point and AFTER explaining the BATTLE you can touch on the broader topis like: Why did Americans migrate to Texas? what other Mexican provinces rebelled - did you know others did but less successfully? How did Mexico gaining independence from Spain plant the seeds for the Texas rebellion only 15 years later? How did Santa Anna violate the new Mexican constitution to trigger the uprising? What role did the USA play in the Texas rebellion during and in the immediate aftermath? How did the Texas revolution lead to the Mexican/American war of 1848?

All sorts of stuff could be discussed and it would take more then a few soundbites to cover it all. And after you finish covering these relevant & important topics of the Battle of the Alamo then you can talk about slavery which played no real role in the Battle or the Texans quest for independence.

It's predictable that you wouldn't know the history here.

Without context, the BATTLE loses it's importance. There would have been no BATTLE without context. There would be no understanding of the BATTLE. smh.

Read how it's done. Context first and most important.
Gettysburg

There's a difference between teaching and indoctrination. The former leads with facts and context and trusts the learner to come to their own conclusions. The latter is you.

It's predictable that you would ignore or diminish the parts of Alamo history that don't fit within your facists dogma. Its predictable that you wouldn't want others to know those facts. It's predictable that instead of challenging facts put forward by your debate opponent's knowledge without actually providing evidence it was lacking. And let's face it, ... wiki..., You've not been able to challenge a single part of the history I stated. Try to keep up.

Every time you post you make clear limited understanding of scientific process and now it's clear, you cannot understand causal effects in history. There's a connect there.

There's not a war museum or battle monument anywhere that doesn't put it in context FIRST so that those they are trying to teach, can understand the true meaning of the Battle. You only want this one to diminish the context because the context reflects those parts of history you prefer to ignore.





LOTR definition of Gettysburg should be, "duh, lots of people died here, fart, burp. Da good gyz won. Dat's all you need to know." lol
 
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