2021 Southwestern Buckeye League

Status
Not open for further replies.

NewOldBlood

Well-known member
I thought all 4 coaching changes were shockers. With the success each coach/program has had I didn't see any changes coming. I think Waynesville and Madison have to make great hires in order to be competitive. I would think Waynesville will attract a lot of good candidates with all the new construction and the growing community.
You can hire Urban Myer, but you have to have the dudes to compete. Madison has made a living off beating Shawnee, Dixie, and Northridge over the years. Waynesville will always struggle to compete with schools the size of Bellbrook and Franklin on a yearly basis. There will be years they can pull it off, but there will be a lot more that they cannot. The new shakeup of the SWBL is all bad for the smaller schools in the league and personally I don't think it matters who these schools hire. I just don't see the current format working, but unfortunately I also don't see many options for the the smaller schools either.
 

formercardinal

Active member
You can hire Urban Myer, but you have to have the dudes to compete. Madison has made a living off beating Shawnee, Dixie, and Northridge over the years. Waynesville will always struggle to compete with schools the size of Bellbrook and Franklin on a yearly basis. There will be years they can pull it off, but there will be a lot more that they cannot. The new shakeup of the SWBL is all bad for the smaller schools in the league and personally I don't think it matters who these schools hire. I just don't see the current format working, but unfortunately I also don't see many options for the the smaller schools either.
Your post is dead on. If Waynesville continues to grow, maybe they get big enough to compete with the bigger schools, but I don't see Madison or Carlisle ever being competitive with this league format.
 
You can hire Urban Myer, but you have to have the dudes to compete. Madison has made a living off beating Shawnee, Dixie, and Northridge over the years. Waynesville will always struggle to compete with schools the size of Bellbrook and Franklin on a yearly basis. There will be years they can pull it off, but there will be a lot more that they cannot. The new shakeup of the SWBL is all bad for the smaller schools in the league and personally I don't think it matters who these schools hire. I just don't see the current format working, but unfortunately I also don't see many options for the the smaller schools either.

I feel like this whole "We don't have the dudes to compete" is a cop out. The attitude should be to beat everyone you are going to play regardless of school numbers past records or anything like that. If you don't have the dudes make the dudes. How many hidden gems go unnoticed in high school, or kids aren't in the right cliques and don't get a shot. Also start your program with the middle school allow the kids to start learning the system then and by the time they are in high school they will know the reads and plays.

Programs like Marion local and Kirtland who are great for years and years and years don't always have the best "Dudes" but they have coaches willing to make "Dudes"

Urban Meyer was successful at Bowling Green, and Utah, they don't have the Dudes either. Just saying
 

NewOldBlood

Well-known member
I feel like this whole "We don't have the dudes to compete" is a cop out. The attitude should be to beat everyone you are going to play regardless of school numbers past records or anything like that. If you don't have the dudes make the dudes. How many hidden gems go unnoticed in high school, or kids aren't in the right cliques and don't get a shot. Also start your program with the middle school allow the kids to start learning the system then and by the time they are in high school they will know the reads and plays.

Programs like Marion local and Kirtland who are great for years and years and years don't always have the best "Dudes" but they have coaches willing to make "Dudes"

Urban Meyer was successful at Bowling Green, and Utah, they don't have the Dudes either. Just saying
No disrespect, but Marion Local and Kirtland and Coldwater have the "dudes". Madison had a class go through recently that allowed them similar success, but that was an anomaly. Waynesville and Carlisle have both had successful groups go through. I also know that all three have had some really good football coaches that have done the exact things you listed above. It's probably unfair to compare Waynesville, Madison and Carlisle to ML or Kirtland. They are two of the most successful high school football programs in the history of the state. If you think those schools, don't have a better roster than 99.9% of the other schools their size I would say you're wrong. I would argue that 9 times out of 10 vs. the teams they play they absolutely have the best "dudes" on the field. Throw those teams on the field with a team that was a DIII final four team and you might see a different result. I don't totally disagree with what you're saying. A good coach can build a solid program from top to bottom and make them competitive. I would also agree that the best coaches will get the absolute maximum amount of ability out of their kids. But when a school has 500 boys to choose from and another has 175, there is a clear disadvantage. In a perfect world, what you're saying is great, but if it was that easy everyone would do it and every state in the country that offers football wouldn't have multiple divisions based on the size of schools participating in athletics. To suggest that larger schools playing schools 2 or 3 divisions smaller than them year in and year out for a league championship don't have a clear competitive advantage is misguided, and again I don't care who the coach is.

Also, Urban Meyer had the "dudes" at BG to compete in the MAC (had one of if not the best QB in school history and definitely the best player in the MAC that year). He had the "dudes" at Utah to compete in the Mountain West (had a first round draft pick at QB). You put either of those teams in a Power 5 conference they might finish with 5 or 6 wins. He wasn't winning national championships until he went to schools that allowed him to recruit the kind of talent that wins national championship.
 
No disrespect, but Marion Local and Kirtland and Coldwater have the "dudes". Madison had a class go through recently that allowed them similar success, but that was an anomaly. Waynesville and Carlisle have both had successful groups go through. I also know that all three have had some really good football coaches that have done the exact things you listed above. It's probably unfair to compare Waynesville, Madison and Carlisle to ML or Kirtland. They are two of the most successful high school football programs in the history of the state. If you think those schools, don't have a better roster than 99.9% of the other schools their size I would say you're wrong. I would argue that 9 times out of 10 vs. the teams they play they absolutely have the best "dudes" on the field. Throw those teams on the field with a team that was a DIII final four team and you might see a different result. I don't totally disagree with what you're saying. A good coach can build a solid program from top to bottom and make them competitive. I would also agree that the best coaches will get the absolute maximum amount of ability out of their kids. But when a school has 500 boys to choose from and another has 175, there is a clear disadvantage. In a perfect world, what you're saying is great, but if it was that easy everyone would do it and every state in the country that offers football wouldn't have multiple divisions based on the size of schools participating in athletics. To suggest that larger schools playing schools 2 or 3 divisions smaller than them year in and year out for a league championship don't have a clear competitive advantage is misguided, and again I don't care who the coach is.

Also, Urban Meyer had the "dudes" at BG to compete in the MAC (had one of if not the best QB in school history and definitely the best player in the MAC that year). He had the "dudes" at Utah to compete in the Mountain West (had a first round draft pick at QB). You put either of those teams in a Power 5 conference they might finish with 5 or 6 wins. He wasn't winning national championships until he went to schools that allowed him to recruit the kind of talent that wins national championship.

I feel like you have proven my point. Those schools have the "Dudes" because their coaches have made them dudes. Those small schools don't sustain that amount of success without coaching plain and simple. Programs that have dudes and no coaching are like Madison that do good for a few years then fall off wagon. Kirtland could compete with bigger schools plain and simple. The beat a D1 school last year. I'm sure their coach didn't cry about the number of kids he had in his school.

Does having more kids help yes it does but I feel like you are acting like Waynesville is going to be playing D1 schools all the time. Bellbrook, Franklin are big schools but are they state champs year in and year out, No. Crying because you are a smaller school wont help, building a winning program and a winning attitude will help, and then when it comes to play schools your size, then you beat the crap out of them. But we live in a society where hard work is frowned upon and excuses are often sought after.
 

ex_dc_atc

Moderator
Staff member
Your post is dead on. If Waynesville continues to grow, maybe they get big enough to compete with the bigger schools, but I don't see Madison or Carlisle ever being competitive with this league format.

Waynesville is a community that is absolutely going to continue to grow. That's a fact. I also think they'll compete very well with other sports such as boys and girls soccer, girls basketball, etc. They'll compete with those bigger schools now in those sports.
 

NewOldBlood

Well-known member
I feel like you have proven my point. Those schools have the "Dudes" because their coaches have made them dudes. Those small schools don't sustain that amount of success without coaching plain and simple. Programs that have dudes and no coaching are like Madison that do good for a few years then fall off wagon. Kirtland could compete with bigger schools plain and simple. The beat a D1 school last year. I'm sure their coach didn't cry about the number of kids he had in his school.

Does having more kids help yes it does but I feel like you are acting like Waynesville is going to be playing D1 schools all the time. Bellbrook, Franklin are big schools but are they state champs year in and year out, No. Crying because you are a smaller school wont help, building a winning program and a winning attitude will help, and then when it comes to play schools your size, then you beat the crap out of them. But we live in a society where hard work is frowned upon and excuses are often sought after.
Again, using Kirtland as the rule instead of the exception in unfair. If what you're saying was true, why aren't there more small schools like Kirtland or ML or Coldwater out there. I will use Chip Otten from Coldwater as my example. He is arguably one of the most successful coaches in the state. He's headed to the hall of fame. I played for Coach O at Middletown in the early 90's. He was an outstanding coach. One of my all time favorites. Not long after I graduated, he got the opportunity to be the head coach at Middletown. I'm not 100% certain, but I'm almost positive he never had a winning record and never won more than 2 or 3 games in a season. He goes back to his alma mater as an assistant, takes over the reigns later and the rest is history. He didn't suddenly become a great coach at Coldwater. He was a great coach at Middletown, but was unfortunately the coach during some down talent years. You don't make chicken salad out of chicken sht I don't care how good of coach you are. It's pretty low of you to just assume that the coaches at Waynesville, Madison, Carlisle or any other small school just aren't very good coaches because they aren't able to do what Goodwin, Otten or the coach from Kirtland has been able to do. There is a lot more that goes into building those types of dynasty like programs than coaching and talent is high on the list. Support within the district, community support, finances, lack of other sports (like soccer) drawing kids away from football, also play a role.

And no one is crying about anything. My son plays at one of the bigger schools in the league. I've followed the SWBL for years and I've watched the schools from the SW side as a whole beat the crap out of the schools from the Buckeye side for years. Combining teams from both sides into the same divisions will not be good for the smaller schools. The current position of the league is not good as a whole. Kids from Madison and Carlisle have been working their butts off for years and you can count on one hand the number of times either of them has beaten Franklin, Bellbrook or Monroe in the last ten years. I'm not making excuses for them, just talking about the reality of the situation. I would love nothing more than to see one of the schools were talking about be the next Kirtland or ML, but I don't see it happening any time soon regardless of the coach any of those schools hire.
 
I use Kirtland and ML as the rule because that's what every coach and every program should strive for, plain and simple. And to take your coach O example did he maybe take over Middletown as a first time head coach and make mistakes, not put players in the right spots, not get the best out of the talent he had? Then he goes back to coldwater and learned from the mistakes he made to become a better coach? Yes there is a lot that goes into building a program and that's why being and having a good coach builds programs. They are creative in getting kids to come play football, they connect with the kids, the build the program from the middle school up.

Im not advocating that D7 schools would be able to compete with D2 schools. Is there disparity amongst the SWBL yes but I won two league championships as the smallest school on the SW side. We beat bellbrook and Franklin and to be honest those schools weren't that different from some of the smaller schools we faced.
What I am saying is coaches use this We didn't have talent excuse because they are not developing players or getting kids to come out to play football. They aren't using their players in systems that fit their abilities. Waynesville will have some tough years playing the large schools in the SWBL yes but is it impossible no.

Take Graham wrestling they competed against Blair academy which can get kids from all over the world and beat them in a dual meet. Its because Jeff Jordan built the ultimate wrestling program. I just personally think coaching is way bigger in high school sports than what people want to believe and I feel coaches use that excuse to hid their flaws. That's all I'm saying
 
One point I would like to add about Madison, both the basketball and football teams, that were very successful, benefitted from transfers from surrounding districts. Their athletic programs were attractive under the previous superintendent and non-parent coaches. Many athletes from Middletown are looking for somewhere else to go. It could easily be that way again with the right hire.
 

Bless Em All

Moderator
In small schools the coaching makes the difference. It starts in Middle School and flows up to Varsity. Versailles is a great example. Hetrick developed talent, he wasn't just handed the dudes.
Using Kirtland and Marion Local as examples is fine but the two are about as opposite as can be. Kirtland sits neighboring one of Cleveland's largest communities and benefits from that. They are situated in a highly populated urban area.
Marion is out in the middle of nowhere. Coldwater is the most like the SWBL schools being centered in a town of about 4-5 thousand.
Much of the success at many SWBL schools is due to great culture and parental support. Valley View is one example. Waynesville, Carlisle, Madison and Brookville will adjust to the competition and compete. Brookville already does a great job.
 
In small schools the coaching makes the difference. It starts in Middle School and flows up to Varsity. Versailles is a great example. Hetrick developed talent, he wasn't just handed the dudes.
Using Kirtland and Marion Local as examples is fine but the two are about as opposite as can be. Kirtland sits neighboring one of Cleveland's largest communities and benefits from that. They are situated in a highly populated urban area.
Marion is out in the middle of nowhere. Coldwater is the most like the SWBL schools being centered in a town of about 4-5 thousand.
Much of the success at many SWBL schools is due to great culture and parental support. Valley View is one example. Waynesville, Carlisle, Madison and Brookville will adjust to the competition and compete. Brookville already does a great job.
And I am not saying that not having guys is important. Kirtland may benefit from being near a bigger community. But coaching still matters. You can’t just plug any coach and get the same results. Small town football I believe coaching is way more valuable than people realize
 

NewOldBlood

Well-known member
And I am not saying that not having guys is important. Kirtland may benefit from being near a bigger community. But coaching still matters. You can’t just plug any coach and get the same results. Small town football I believe coaching is way more valuable than people realize
This is absolutely true. I wasn't suggesting in my earlier post that coaching didn't matter. I was only suggesting that talent did. I've seen some teams full of talent get beat by lesser talented teams many times in my life, because the more talented team was not well coached. But those lesser teams were still talented, just not as talented. I also firmly believe that some small towns could absolutely benefit from hiring a coach that was willing to establish a system from the youngest age they play football in that community through the varsity. The next step is figuring out were every player best fits in that system. Locally Valley View and Edgewood come to mind as schools who have pulled this off and had several decades worth of good football teams.
 
This is absolutely true. I wasn't suggesting in my earlier post that coaching didn't matter. I was only suggesting that talent did. I've seen some teams full of talent get beat by lesser talented teams many times in my life, because the more talented team was not well coached. But those lesser teams were still talented, just not as talented. I also firmly believe that some small towns could absolutely benefit from hiring a coach that was willing to establish a system from the youngest age they play football in that community through the varsity. The next step is figuring out were every player best fits in that system. Locally Valley View and Edgewood come to mind as schools who have pulled this off and had several decades worth of good football teams.
And to go with your point I think waynesville has a good program. They have been solid for many years and I really think they still will be successful even though they will be playing Franklin and bellbrook yearly
 

ex_dc_atc

Moderator
Staff member
And to go with your point I think waynesville has a good program. They have been solid for many years and I really think they still will be successful even though they will be playing Franklin and bellbrook yearly

We don't have to look back very far to show that Waynesville is capable of competing with those schools in football. In 2019, Waynesville was 9-2 and a playoff team. They beat an 8-2 Bellbrook team, 21-20 in Week 4. Granted that was a better Waynesville team, but they can compete if they put their quality product on the field.

This is a football forum, but the real interest for Waynesville joining the other division is in soccer. Waynesville has quality girls and boys soccer teams. Joining Bellbrook, Monroe, and even Oakwood will bring the best SWBL soccer teams together.
 

NewOldBlood

Well-known member
We don't have to look back very far to show that Waynesville is capable of competing with those schools in football. In 2019, Waynesville was 9-2 and a playoff team. They beat an 8-2 Bellbrook team, 21-20 in Week 4. Granted that was a better Waynesville team, but they can compete if they put their quality product on the field.

This is a football forum, but the real interest for Waynesville joining the other division is in soccer. Waynesville has quality girls and boys soccer teams. Joining Bellbrook, Monroe, and even Oakwood will bring the best SWBL soccer teams together.
I could be wrong, but I thought I read somewhere that the league was only splitting into divisions for football and other sports would be playing for a single title.
 

Kirtland4580

Well-known member
In small schools the coaching makes the difference. It starts in Middle School and flows up to Varsity.
Kirtland sits neighboring one of Cleveland's largest communities and benefits from that. They are situated in a highly populated urban area.
Marion is out in the middle of nowhere. Coldwater is the most like the SWBL schools being centered in a town of about 4-5 thousand.
Much of the success at many SWBL schools is due to great culture and parental support.
Coaching is absolutely the difference maker for small schools. An added bonus is continuity in coaching staffs which doesn’t always happen. Like you said, it starts in middle school. For some schools like Kirtland, it starts in youth football leagues where the high school offense/defense is instilled at an early age. By the time the kids reach high school and middle school, terminology is self-explanatory.

I will say that while Kirtland sits next to a large suburb like Mentor, they don’t benefit from student-athletes from Mentor. Neighboring cities might have resources such as workout facilities, but the talent base is in Kirtland alone which makes the Hornets’ run all the more remarkable.

MAC schools such as Coldwater and Marion Local are certainly the gold standard when it comes to small school aspirations. Any community that wants a successful football team or athletics program for that matter should look at them for the answer key(s).

Last point you make about SWBL schools is the great culture and parental support. This is something easier said than done, but it’s important to have these two as a solid foundation.

Excellent points, @BlessEmAll.
 

Bless Em All

Moderator
Everyone should look to MAC schools and Kirtland for guidance. Always look to the successful programs and emulate their success. Kirtland is a nice community. Been there several times on business. Mentor, I'm sure, sends some kids your way. ?
 

Kirtland4580

Well-known member
Everyone should look to MAC schools and Kirtland for guidance. Always look to the successful programs and emulate their success. Kirtland is a nice community. Been there several times on business. Mentor, I'm sure, sends some kids your way. ?
Haha, it would be quite helpful if they did, but that would take away the ‘One Town’ mentality that some of the Kirtland families carry with them. Mentor has an outstanding program and deserves a football title one of these years for sure. Best of luck to the SWBL this upcoming season! ?
 

Bless Em All

Moderator
Haha, it would be quite helpful if they did, but that would take away the ‘One Town’ mentality that some of the Kirtland families carry with them. Mentor has an outstanding program and deserves a football title one of these years for sure. Best of luck to the SWBL this upcoming season! ?
Thanks!
 

DudeBro

Member
I hear Waynesville is having a meeting with the players today to get their opinions on what they’re looking for in a coach.
 

bdf111rp

Well-known member
I thought all 4 coaching changes were shockers. With the success each coach/program has had I didn't see any changes coming. I think Waynesville and Madison have to make great hires in order to be competitive. I would think Waynesville will attract a lot of good candidates with all the new construction and the growing community.

I think Madison will be fine. Their side, other then Valley View, isn’t traditionally strong. Brookville seems like they have a good team every three or four years. Eaton has been down for a while. Carlisle is down also. With all that’s went on with the coaches at VV I would think even they will be somewhat of a question mark.
 

TippIsGreat

Well-known member
They have been winning playoff games and making runs , it will be very disappointing if they go another direction
Bellbrook is a good program. But playing in the SWBL actually prohibits them from becoming an even better program. I think the MVL is a much better fit in all sports for Bellbrook especially in football as it will challenge them more. Size wise Bellbrook and Franklin have outgrown the SWBL, much like Tipp did the CBC. It was a rough few years for Tipp after leaving the CBC but they seem to be back on track. Also I believe Tipp and Bellbrook are scheduled to play again this year which I think could become a good yearly game.
 

Bless Em All

Moderator
Bellbrook is a good program. But playing in the SWBL actually prohibits them from becoming an even better program. I think the MVL is a much better fit in all sports for Bellbrook especially in football as it will challenge them more. Size wise Bellbrook and Franklin have outgrown the SWBL, much like Tipp did the CBC. It was a rough few years for Tipp after leaving the CBC but they seem to be back on track. Also I believe Tipp and Bellbrook are scheduled to play again this year which I think could become a good yearly game.
Who do they replace in the MVL, Or is the MVL expanding?
Tipp benefitted from moving up to the GWOC but with the growth of the community it was a natural move.
Bellbrook is similar as is Franklin and surprisingly Waynesville. Valley View is a growing community as well. Brookville should be in the TRC with Milton. Oakwood is stagnant and will never leave the SWBL. Eaton and Greenville are two of a kind. Stebbins, West Carrollton, Greenville, Eaton all are similar to me.
They do serve a purpose
 

ghsknightsfan

Well-known member
Bellbrook and Franklin are near perfect fits in the MVL- South to me. competitively, culturally, and geographically. 12 team league with 7 league and 3 non-league games is near ideal
 

dograt

Well-known member
That would also "fix" the huge problem the SWBL has. Waynesville, Madison, and Carlisle are NOT going to be happy playing those much bigger schools (Brookville already isn't thrilled). Losing the 2 biggest would fix the whole league.

Remember, not listening to the smallest schools who wanted to get rid of the crossovers is what cost the SWBL 4 schools this year. I think it will happen again if they don't remedy the size difference in some way (expansion back to 2 divisions could also work)
 

alk4474

Well-known member
Bellbrook is a good program. But playing in the SWBL actually prohibits them from becoming an even better program. I think the MVL is a much better fit in all sports for Bellbrook especially in football as it will challenge them more. Size wise Bellbrook and Franklin have outgrown the SWBL, much like Tipp did the CBC. It was a rough few years for Tipp after leaving the CBC but they seem to be back on track. Also I believe Tipp and Bellbrook are scheduled to play again this year which I think could become a good yearly game.
I don’t buy this gal if you want to state three times playing in as a SWBL. Only thing Holding Bellbrook back is Bellbrook.
 

BucksFan937

Well-known member
That would also "fix" the huge problem the SWBL has. Waynesville, Madison, and Carlisle are NOT going to be happy playing those much bigger schools (Brookville already isn't thrilled). Losing the 2 biggest would fix the whole league.

Remember, not listening to the smallest schools who wanted to get rid of the crossovers is what cost the SWBL 4 schools this year. I think it will happen again if they don't remedy the size difference in some way (expansion back to 2 divisions could also work)
Do we know if Brookville was ever approached about joining the TRC, and if they had any interest? It was always my understanding that they preferred to be in the big school side of the SWBL, and if that's the case, I don't understand why they aren't thrilled now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
.
Top