Northwest Ohio Realignment

[Smalls]

Since Whitmer had a strong enough program to absorb the blow of vouchers dumbarses believe it legitamizes their use.

The TCL allowed the private schools to arse rape them for years. One TPS AD even acted like he enjoyed it. The NLL and TRAC publics will not. There will be no more Mr. Nice Guy with the private schools, especially CC, which has gamed the system brilliantly. They should have fun scheduling freshman games in Cleveland and Detroit on Wednesday nights. Probably have to charge more for tailgate parking.

I may have asked this before, but can't find the old thread or remember the explanation - What is the financial impact to the school district that losses a student with a "voucher" to a private vs "open enrollment" to a public?

Put another way what is the financial impact to TPS losing a student to Central vs losing to Whitmer?

Not talking at a macro level argument of public dollars staying in the public system etc. Just dollars and cents for the school district losing the student.

I assume that both have a negative financial impact - maybe one less than the other - but if both cause any harm then why not argue against both practices? Right is right wrong is wrong regardless of "degree of wrongness" or should I be looking at this from a different perspective?

 

[Smalls]

https://aede.osu.edu/sites/aede/files/publication_files/Swank-School-Choice-In-Ohio_1.pdf

From the above study this is what I see - it is a little old so the $$$ may not be the latest - but I believe mechanics work the same currently;

Voucher;
EduChoice vouchers are worth up to $4,250 for grades K-8, and $5,000 for grades 9 – 12. The voucher payment is made as a transfer from a student’s home district. A portion of the voucher payment is paid for with state aid, and a portion is paid for with local revenue. Private schools must accept the voucher as full tuition for students at or below 200 percent of the federal poverty line, but may charge additional tuition and fees to students that exceed the 200 percent benchmark.

Open Enrollment;
Funding is transferred between districts on a per pupil basis based on the $5,800 state foundation funding amount. Since all districts receive less than the $5,800 per pupil amount in state aid, a portion of the open enrollment transfer must be paid for with the local revenues of the district the student is leaving.

End result - the district losing students is harmed financially from a revenue perspective through both programs.

There is counter argument about fixed vs variable cost (not just looking a revenue loss) and the relationship between those variable cost and voucher/open enrollment payments. Variable cost goes away when the student leaves.

What it means in dollars/cost:

Average cost to educate a student $13,500, 60% of that cost is variable or $8,100 (goes away when the student leaves), average local cost to district in voucher/open enrollment payment $4,700......so the district losing a student will come out ahead until the voucher/open enrollment payment is greater than or equal to the variable cost or so the argument goes.

As I have mentioned before I think private schools should have to fund vouchers through private dollars and there needs to be some consolidation of schools - but also believe that open enrollment schools should not get $$$ from the district the student is leaving. TPS for example is getting the "shocker" from both programs.

 

[dhsdog06]

Since Whitmer had a strong enough program to absorb the blow of vouchers dumbarses believe it legitamizes their use.

The TCL allowed the private schools to arse rape them for years. One TPS AD even acted like he enjoyed it. The NLL and TRAC publics will not. There will be no more Mr. Nice Guy with the private schools, especially CC, which has gamed the system brilliantly. They should have fun scheduling freshman games in Cleveland and Detroit on Wednesday nights. Probably have to charge more for tailgate parking.

How is a freshman game in Detroit any different than ones in Findlay or Lima?

Detroit is honestly a great option for the Toledo privates.

 

[irish_buffalo]

How is a freshman game in Detroit any different than ones in Findlay or Lima?

Detroit is honestly a great option for the Toledo privates.

EVERY freshman and JV game in EVERY sport will be that way. Big difference.

 

[irish_buffalo]

https://aede.osu.edu/sites/aede/files/publication_files/Swank-School-Choice-In-Ohio_1.pdf

From the above study this is what I see - it is a little old so the $$$ may not be the latest - but I believe mechanics work the same currently;

Voucher;
EduChoice vouchers are worth up to $4,250 for grades K-8, and $5,000 for grades 9 – 12. The voucher payment is made as a transfer from a student’s home district. A portion of the voucher payment is paid for with state aid, and a portion is paid for with local revenue. Private schools must accept the voucher as full tuition for students at or below 200 percent of the federal poverty line, but may charge additional tuition and fees to students that exceed the 200 percent benchmark.

Open Enrollment;
Funding is transferred between districts on a per pupil basis based on the $5,800 state foundation funding amount. Since all districts receive less than the $5,800 per pupil amount in state aid, a portion of the open enrollment transfer must be paid for with the local revenues of the district the student is leaving.

End result - the district losing students is harmed financially from a revenue perspective through both programs.

There is counter argument about fixed vs variable cost (not just looking a revenue loss) and the relationship between those variable cost and voucher/open enrollment payments. Variable cost goes away when the student leaves.

What it means in dollars/cost:

Average cost to educate a student $13,500, 60% of that cost is variable or $8,100 (goes away when the student leaves), average local cost to district in voucher/open enrollment payment $4,700......so the district losing a student will come out ahead until the voucher/open enrollment payment is greater than or equal to the variable cost or so the argument goes.

As I have mentioned before I think private schools should have to fund vouchers through private dollars and there needs to be some consolidation of schools - but also believe that open enrollment schools should not get $$$ from the district the student is leaving. TPS for example is getting the "shocker" from both programs.

Lets keep in mind here that Whitmer JUST become OE. Public schools are/were forced to go OE to TRY to make up the money they are bleeding. This is all because of EdChoice originally. Had the state kept public dollars public we would not be talking about this AND CCHS and OCS would more than likely be closed. It is an awful system aimed at chipping away at public education and has created the disaster we have at the moment.

 

[irish_buffalo]

”I think if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it.” - Bobby Knight, In a 1988 television interview, NBC reporter Connie Chung

Several TPS AD's took that to heart.

 

[ToledoGuy]

EVERY freshman and JV game in EVERY sport will be that way. Big difference.

Or just basketball and football, since those are the only sports they'll probably not be able to schedule out the requisite amount of games in the Toledo Area.

 

[CC Track Fan]

Or just basketball and football, since those are the only sports they'll probably not be able to schedule out the requisite amount of games in the Toledo Area.

I heard the new NLL will not play the privates in any team sports (not sure about hockey as expect that will not be NLL sport). Baseball and softball travel could even worse than basketball.

 

[ToledoGuy]

I heard the new NLL will not play the privates in any team sports (not sure about hockey as expect that will not be NLL sport). Baseball and softball travel could even worse than basketball.

Yikes, I figure Whitmer would pull that card, but if the whole NLL does it that would be a nightmare for them, especially in the non-revenues.

 

[dappling]

No one is asking me, but I still think Maumee leaving the NLL was a bad move as the lower division was doable for the Panthers.

 

[CCHS93]

I heard the new NLL will not play the privates in any team sports (not sure about hockey as expect that will not be NLL sport). Baseball and softball travel could even worse than basketball.

I really doubt that. In soccer a lot of the coaches on the high schools coach together on the travel teams.

 

[eastisbest]

I heard the new NLL will not play the privates in any team sports (not sure about hockey as expect that will not be NLL sport). Baseball and softball travel could even worse than basketball.

Was this something only said by someone looking at you from a mirror or was it some credible source you will identify?

 

[CC Track Fan]

Was this something only said by someone looking at you from a mirror or was it some credible source you will identify?

From a coach saying that is what his AD told him. Not sure if it will happen or what sports or how many schools will join in. My understanding quite a few schools were pissed at some of the stuff the privates did during Covid as other have hinted at here. I for one don't think what they did was that bad as they were just serving their paying customers.

 

[smurfyeah19]

No one is asking me, but I still think Maumee leaving the NLL was a bad move as the lower division was doable for the Panthers.

I don't agree at all. Maumee was beaten 56-7 by Eastwood this year and have won 1 game since 2018. That's right, they're 1-38 the last four years. Time to move on

 

[CCHS93]

From a coach saying that is what his AD told him. Not sure if it will happen or what sports or how many schools will join in. My understanding quite a few schools were pissed at some of the stuff the privates did during Covid as other have hinted at here. I for one don't think what they did was that bad as they were just serving their paying customers.

The thing about the Covid lockdown was absolutely rediculous. It was hugely political. The Health Director way overstepped is authority, both legal and moral, to do what he did. Especially considering either he or his kids were still playing sports. I remember him making a comment for the media at a sporting event. Lucas was the only one of 88 counties to do what it did. It was unfair to the TRAC, NLL, and TAAC schools in Lucas County whose opponents and fellow conference members were outside Lucas County. It was an unjust and ultra political move. Had the danger been truly as bad as it was wronly portrayed, you bet everyone would still be hunckered down. But it came out of the blue after a successful fall season and, all of a sudden, things were unsafe? But only unsafe in 1 of 88 counties. Only unsafe for sports, not anything else. The private schools only what was logical and it was unfortunate none of the others did. The publics knew it was a BS order, but chose not to fight it. If a government issues an unjust edict, you nonviolently resist. Thats what they did.

 

[eastisbest]

From a coach saying that is what his AD told him. Not sure if it will happen or what sports or how many schools will join in. My understanding quite a few schools were pissed at some of the stuff the privates did during Covid as other have hinted at here. I for one don't think what they did was that bad as they were just serving their paying customers.

and the ones paid for by the government, lol. Like most disputes, I see it as one of appearances. It was a time to show solidarity, sacrifice if needed. The privates with a mandate of sacrifice instead showed self - interest. Is it really all that unusual for self-interest to begat self-interest? No. Probably something whose time had come.

Lemonade time.

 

[eastisbest]

The thing about the Covid lockdown was absolutely rediculous. It was hugely political. The Health Director way overstepped is authority,

but it was his authority you little trumpster you. The privates not only showed no interest into what was mandated for public institutions who had no choice, they looked to profit from the situation by grabbing every "student" they could lay their hands on, even at public dollar expense.

Even they with their holier than thou pretense should have recognized the position of their conference mates and just... sacrificed or organized and banded opposition, ultimately taking the same road mandated to their public mates. They would have survived it and even grown if they had shown some moral, even sacrificial if that elevates you, back-bone.

Regardless how long this pointing of facts versus your suppositions goes on, it's done deal. The privates took an action and now seem all butt-hurt that those harmed by those actions respond defensively. Get over yourselves, move-on or approach amends. This continual whining from the private quarters that the publics no long care to play with those running the privates at this time is making them look even smaller.

 

[Smalls]

How is a freshman game in Detroit any different than ones in Findlay or Lima?

Detroit is honestly a great option for the Toledo privates.

It is a great option from a competitive standpoint, but driving 94, 96 or 275 during rush hour is dangerous for adults let alone kids. It is a much tougher drive than 75 to Findlay/Lima.

Both of my kids went to private schools - played 100's of games between multiple sports and a bus was provided less than 10 times. Most of the kids at the varsity level had to car pool with other kids.

 

[Smalls]

From a scheduling standpoint I expect far more weekend tournaments/double headers/meets etc. will be scheduled by the privates. In the past there may be some weekends off - that will not happen anymore. Most private school families are used to the travel (AAU, Club Volleyball, Travel Baseball/Softball/swim meets etc.).

My daughters team traveled to Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati several times each year even during week days looking to build a stronger schedule. They just make it work.

 

[CCHS93]

but it was his authority you little trumpster you.

You had to go there? Well, it was the legal right to challenge that 'authority' in court. The courts ruled against him. So who's authority is higher-- a health commissioner or a court? You use 'its his authority' for your argument but you dismiss a greater authority, the courts, when it goes against you.

And since you went there, calling me a trumpster, I wish you all the best at your next Antifa riot.

 

[eastisbest]

You had to go there? Well, it was the legal right to challenge that 'authority' in court. The courts ruled against him. So who's authority is higher-- a health commissioner or a court? You use 'its his authority' for your argument but you dismiss a greater authority, the courts, when it goes against you.

And since you went there, calling me a trumpster, I wish you all the best at your next Antifa riot.

lol "go there?" you quoted line and verse. Thought I was recognizing your belief system.

at least we seem to agree that is an equitable comparison you came up with.

 

[irish_buffalo]

From a scheduling standpoint I expect far more weekend tournaments/double headers/meets etc. will be scheduled by the privates. In the past there may be some weekends off - that will not happen anymore. Most private school families are used to the travel (AAU, Club Volleyball, Travel Baseball/Softball/swim meets etc.).

My daughters team traveled to Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati several times each year even during week days looking to build a stronger schedule. They just make it work.

This is what should happen with everyone going forward.

Many of CC's parents do not have your resources. The football game at Benedictine this past season was very telling. All the old slobberjaws who slug Bud Light's in the parking lot of home games do not travel well, especially if the team might be a tad down. Many of the parents who cannot sit in the "reserved section" for the old white Catholic's do not have the same means.

 

[smurfyeah19]

I think it’s funny for the NLL to complain about private schools while literally sucking in the entire population of NW Ohio into the Sylvania, Anthony Wayne and Perrysburg districts. Sure the parochial have one way of attracting families, but so are those guys.

I lived in a farm town east of here, went to school and moved to Perrysburg after graduation so I definitely get it. But I’ve seen my alma mater in the last decade have to downsize conferences as its numbers dwindle while a place like Waterville can’t build fast enough. Look at poor Maumee and Rossford! They’ve shrunk and struggled so badly with the schools in the western burbs that they’ve had to run to the old SLL to save their athletic programs. If in 2001 someone told you that the likes of Perrysburg and Anthony Wayne would be so big that Maumee and Rossford would have to join the SLL remnants you would’ve advised them to lay off the drugs. Hell at that time the SLL was being dominated by Woodmore and Gibsonburg which makes that even funnier in my opinion

 

[eastisbest]

I think it’s funny for the NLL to complain about private schools while literally sucking in the entire population of NW Ohio into the Sylvania, Anthony Wayne and Perrysburg districts. Sure the parochial have one way of attracting families, but so are those guys.

Are you trying to find new ground here smurf or repeat old? Why are you even comparing the public process to the private process?

What do those districts do that the "parochials" don't? Let everyone in their district in the doors, regardless established family, recent move-in, not a citizen, athletic, disabled, extremely smart, struggling, rich, poor, somewhere in the middle.... Let's say it again for those private system supporters still looking for strawmen: the publics let in all God's children. No test. No recruitment. Take the state tests, get the state report card... That population takes precious money to address.

Privates can pay for themselves if the stigma they have created on themselves bothers them. They can choose to operate on the same playing field. It always comes back to this: privates are whining they are not recognized by the others as "superior" in a fixed game. It is the privates arrogantly claiming a superiority of their religious education, their harder working students and families, when that is all they accept in the doors, while not accepting those furthest behind. Open the doors. Play on the same field. Do God's work.

No one in NLL is complaining about private schools, you can rest your fixation. They are complaining "private" schools not operating in a private manner, politicing public moneys then not providing the services or claiming to provide a Christian education then deciding only certain people are permitted to receive that. Many of us have long memories. For those with short ones, look at the photos on the Hall of Fame walls at the private schools. It's pretty clear who they thought deserving of the Christian education, until they could no long support their under-performing economic process. THEN when they could get state monies, all of a sudden there was a diverse population deserving of a Catholic education, as long as they could also maybe play ball or score high on an academic test or were otherwise targeted for having a high probable of being a future economic assett.

Facts and history do not change. When it got hot these past couple years, the privates made clear they were not colleagues, they were self-serving and were using the public schools in any way possible.

Your whining at not being liked goes to further demonstate the terrible historical arrogance of schools that are supposed to by mandate, be humble. It offends not just league colleagues, but fellow Christians. You're whining because you're not liked. That makes no sense on any level. Regardless, you put yourselves in that position. The private schools will move on or if it is really important to them, they will find a way to repair the massive rift they created.

 

[CCHS93]

High school football aside, Smurfyeah does make some good points about the economics of the 'haves' versus the 'have nots'. The explosive growth of Monclova and Waterville Townships is not unlike the growth of the Olentangy schools, Hilliard, Dublin, etc in Columbus. The trend is nationwide due to the housing boom that started 20 years ago with the availability of cheap money (through low interest rates). It is exacerbated in NW Ohio because of the lack of growth in any of the cities and towns, outside of the suburbs that have pulled from Toledo. The metro area and region hasnt grown in several generations. Thus parents who can afford it have either sent their kids to private schools or, more and more often now, have built new homes or moved into late model homes in the suburbs. Those who havent been able to afford that have a new home in the suburbs search for options in Toledo. Among those options are vouchers at TCC, Emmanuel Christian, Toledo Christian, and others for athletics or Toledo School of the Arts and other charter schools.

I said this many pages ago. The real issue here is macro. It isnt about vouchers or whatever (maybe in the short run). Our area needs to grow again. If not, we will all keep fighting over dwindling resources (kids and taxes).

 

[Deleted75680]

You had to go there? Well, it was the legal right to challenge that 'authority' in court. The courts ruled against him. So who's authority is higher-- a health commissioner or a court? You use 'its his authority' for your argument but you dismiss a greater authority, the courts, when it goes against you.

And since you went there, calling me a trumpster, I wish you all the best at your next Antifa riot.

You need someone to take you through a COVID unit at your local hospital. People like you are the only reason we are still dealing with this .

 

[eastisbest]

CCHA94 laughing at people dying. Goes to what I've been saying about Cherry Streets representation on these boards.

High school football aside, Smurfyeah does make some good points about the economics of the 'haves' versus the 'have nots'. The explosive growth of Monclova and Waterville Townships is not unlike the growth of the Olentangy schools, Hilliard, Dublin, etc in Columbus. The trend is nationwide due to the housing boom that started 20 years ago with the availability of cheap money (through low interest rates). It is exacerbated in NW Ohio because of the lack of growth in any of the cities and towns, outside of the suburbs that have pulled from Toledo. The metro area and region hasnt grown in several generations. Thus parents who can afford it have either sent their kids to private schools or, more and more often now, have built new homes or moved into late model homes in the suburbs. Those who havent been able to afford that have a new home in the suburbs search for options in Toledo. Among those options are vouchers at TCC, Emmanuel Christian, Toledo Christian, and others for athletics or Toledo School of the Arts and other charter schools.

I said this many pages ago. The real issue here is macro. It isnt about vouchers or whatever (maybe in the short run). Our area needs to grow again. If not, we will all keep fighting over dwindling resources (kids and taxes).

^^^
And that folks is what is known as a strawman.

Open the doors. Play by the same rules. Or actually be private. Not one person on these boards or those that preceded it have argued against private education paid for by private moneys nor argued against competing against schools operating within the same paradigm. Even under those conditions, our local publics still shared league with the privates. Do any of you honestly dispute this? The facts are in the sports pages.

It's not Perrysburg residents keeping that ship afloat. Nor are the richer burbs threatening publically provided education for all, regardless genetics, ability or hairstyle. High School football and economics at Cherry St particularly is about vouchers. Regardless how much Toledo grows, the private schools are working on an unendowed economic. Without the corporate welfare, they fail.

End public monies for private schools that select who they will and will not allow in go away and there is no "fighting" regardless the numbers from those that do get tested seem to say they generally obtained a poorer value added than their peers at the public school of their districts.

The final straw clearly was the self interested response to Covid by the private schools that the publics decided enough was enough. As is their right. It wasn't sport or unfair economic competition. It was selfishness they perceived coming from people who were supposed to be colleagues and friends. Much as their reps do on these boards, those private communities showed their backside and they got a divorce in return. Move on and you'll be fine. Accept what you did and try to make right and you'll be fine.

You got what you asked for and now you're constantly complaining others have decided to leave you? Start making sense.

 

[chs1971]

You need someone to take you through a COVID unit at your local hospital. People like you are the only reason we are still dealing with this .

Hilarious.

 

[CCHS93]

CCHA94 laughing at people dying. Goes to what I've been saying about Cherry Streets representation on these boards.

^^^
And that folks is what is known as a strawman.

Open the doors. Play by the same rules. Or actually be private. Not one person on these boards or those that preceded it have argued against private education paid for by private moneys nor argued against competing against schools operating within the same paradigm. Even under those conditions, our local publics still shared league with the privates. Do any of you honestly dispute this? The facts are in the sports pages.

It's not Perrysburg residents keeping that ship afloat. Nor are the richer burbs threatening publically provided education for all, regardless genetics, ability or hairstyle. High School football and economics at Cherry St particularly is about vouchers. Regardless how much Toledo grows, the private schools are working on an unendowed economic. Without the corporate welfare, they fail.

End public monies for private schools that select who they will and will not allow in go away and there is no "fighting" regardless the numbers from those that do get tested seem to say they generally obtained a poorer value added than their peers at the public school of their districts.

The final straw clearly was the self interested response to Covid by the private schools that the publics decided enough was enough. As is their right. It wasn't sport or unfair economic competition. It was selfishness they perceived coming from people who were supposed to be colleagues and friends. Much as their reps do on these boards, those private communities showed their backside and they got a divorce in return. Move on and you'll be fine. Accept what you did and try to make right and you'll be fine.

You got what you asked for and now you're constantly complaining others have decided to leave you? Start making sense.

CCHA94 laughing at people dying. Goes to what I've been saying about Cherry Streets representation on these boards.

^^^
And that folks is what is known as a strawman.

Open the doors. Play by the same rules. Or actually be private. Not one person on these boards or those that preceded it have argued against private education paid for by private moneys nor argued against competing against schools operating within the same paradigm. Even under those conditions, our local publics still shared league with the privates. Do any of you honestly dispute this? The facts are in the sports pages.

It's not Perrysburg residents keeping that ship afloat. Nor are the richer burbs threatening publically provided education for all, regardless genetics, ability or hairstyle. High School football and economics at Cherry St particularly is about vouchers. Regardless how much Toledo grows, the private schools are working on an unendowed economic. Without the corporate welfare, they fail.

End public monies for private schools that select who they will and will not allow in go away and there is no "fighting" regardless the numbers from those that do get tested seem to say they generally obtained a poorer value added than their peers at the public school of their districts.

The final straw clearly was the self interested response to Covid by the private schools that the publics decided enough was enough. As is their right. It wasn't sport or unfair economic competition. It was selfishness they perceived coming from people who were supposed to be colleagues and friends. Much as their reps do on these boards, those private communities showed their backside and they got a divorce in return. Move on and you'll be fine. Accept what you did and try to make right and you'll be fine.

You got what you asked for and now you're constantly complaining others have decided to leave you? Start making sense.

A reading from the prophet East is Best. You can now come down off your pulpit.

Your keyboard warrior bravery is matched only by your bravery at yelling at kids to get off your lawn.

 

[CCHS93]

Whatever happens throughout all of this, it won't solve the underlying problems of our region. Clay will still get crushed in most sports. Whitmer will get as many TPS families as it can. Fremont will have good teams every 5 years. Napoleon and Bowling Green will get tired of playing bigger schools, despite whatever small school division they are placed in.

Perrysburg and Anthony Wayne will continue to win the vast majority of championships. Long term, Napoleon, BG, Fremont, Springfield, and Clay cannot compete with the wealthy suburban schools. There will be individual good runs, like Napoleon in girls basketball currently. But the NLL will be dominated by two schools.

When the dust settles and it is realized that the grass wasnt greener, who will be left to blame?