Northwest Ohio Realignment

buccaneers2002

Active member
I had the privilege of watching two kids from Toledo who both started in the Chargers/Steelers game the other night. Both Whitmer products. They had a third alum on one of the coaching staffs. Legit program.............and yet they are running away from the competition. Whitmer's whole program is built similarly on how private school programs are built, even though it's illegal for them to do it. It's not illegal for privates to recruit students from all over the region, that's why they're private. Still have to pay tuition. Whitmer has been caught recruiting and punished for it. They still do it, especially now with their new open enrollment policy. Point being, I really don't understand why they would run away from the competition when they do the exact same thing as the privates! Don't try to crown yourselves king of the area when you dominate the NLL. To be the best, you have to beat the best and the NLL ain't it.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
I had the privilege of watching two kids from Toledo who both started in the Chargers/Steelers game the other night. Both Whitmer products. They had a third alum on one of the coaching staffs. Legit program.............and yet they are running away from the competition. Whitmer's whole program is built similarly on how private school programs are built, even though it's illegal for them to do it. It's not illegal for privates to recruit students from all over the region, that's why they're private. Still have to pay tuition. Whitmer has been caught recruiting and punished for it. They still do it, especially now with their new open enrollment policy. Point being, I really don't understand why they would run away from the competition when they do the exact same thing as the privates! Don't try to crown yourselves king of the area when you dominate the NLL. To be the best, you have to beat the best and the NLL ain't it.
Stop trying bucc. Your social comments on here long ago made your opinions porous and made your disgusting mindset apparent. It's not possible for you to put anyone on the defensive, no one that has seen your history will feel a need to defend let alone the inadequacy of your formulaic attempt.

Now stop acting like a jilted lover. The act is making you even more pathetic. Go find a new one. That's how you'll survive. Hell, find twins. Even better for the heart. Or the pancreas. I forget which.
 

ayCC!

Well-known member
I had the privilege of watching two kids from Toledo who both started in the Chargers/Steelers game the other night. Both Whitmer products. They had a third alum on one of the coaching staffs. Legit program.............and yet they are running away from the competition. Whitmer's whole program is built similarly on how private school programs are built, even though it's illegal for them to do it. It's not illegal for privates to recruit students from all over the region, that's why they're private. Still have to pay tuition. Whitmer has been caught recruiting and punished for it. They still do it, especially now with their new open enrollment policy. Point being, I really don't understand why they would run away from the competition when they do the exact same thing as the privates! Don't try to crown yourselves king of the area when you dominate the NLL. To be the best, you have to beat the best and the NLL ain't it.
Counterpoint: Whitmer has not robbed $900,000 from its “competition” schools.
 

dhsdog06

Well-known member
Has Lima Senior found a home yet? If not, where is their most likely destination?

All I've heard for them is either football to the NLL, independent otherwise, or potentially joining the TCL.

And that's it. That's their only options.
 

dhsdog06

Well-known member
I think they’ll end up being independent for a while.

Yeah, there's just no real fit out there for them. We can argue why, but the WBL is a no go. I think their best fit is the MVL, or at least something with the northern MVL schools. But that's a no with them at 10 and no clear 12th. Can't see the City League actually expanding to Lima when their budgets are limited as is.

The ONLY option is if the NLL gets desperate for a 12th in football, but the other sports will for sure be independent for a long while.
 

933York

Member
Yeah, there's just no real fit out there for them. We can argue why, but the WBL is a no go. I think their best fit is the MVL, or at least something with the northern MVL schools. But that's a no with them at 10 and no clear 12th. Can't see the City League actually expanding to Lima when their budgets are limited as is.

The ONLY option is if the NLL gets desperate for a 12th in football, but the other sports will for sure be independent for a long while.
I currently live in the MVL footprint (originally from Lima area), and there is no way the MVL will accept them. If the MVL were to expand, it would be south of Dayton (Bellbrook, Franklin). The MVL was created by the 10 smaller GWOC schools breaking off and not inviting Trotwood Madison (probably for some of the same reasons Lima will not be invited into the WBL), so I don’t see them getting into that league.
 

CC Track Fan

Well-known member
All I've heard for them is either football to the NLL, independent otherwise, or potentially joining the TCL.

And that's it. That's their only options.
I heard they had a meeting with the TCL but only way I see that happening is TCL consolidates another school and goes down to 5 schools and needs a 6th. Unless the NLL finds another school I believe they will be football only school because NLL needs to divisions for football as BG and Nap don't want to play Whit, Findlay and Perrysburg.
 

CCHS93

Active member
I think they’ll end up being independent for a while.
I can see them being in a scheduling alliance with the City League but not necessarily becoming a member. Most of the sports are on par with the TCL. It would help both parties.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
I can see them being in a scheduling alliance with the City League but not necessarily becoming a member. Most of the sports are on par with the TCL. It would help both parties.
It's not as if they didn't have their wins in the TRAC. As they would in the TCL and any new Private Conf that might pop up. This year alone they beat SJJ and Clay. It's a travel issue and a travel issue alone. The rest is people trying to pretend it's not a travel issue. At least as far as the TRAC/NLL/TCL footprint. Can't speak to reasons and issues down in the WBL land.
 

dhsdog06

Well-known member
Lima Sr. getting treated like Winton Woods in SW Ohio a while back

Nah. There's just no fit for Lima. A mix of too big, not competitive enough in sports that aren't basketball, and not bringing enough fans for the WBL. The gap in size between them and 2nd biggest Wapak is as big as the gap between Wapak and the league's smallest, Bath. That would be a no go in a lot in leagues.

And the travel from Toledo to Lima, while an easy shot down 75, IS 77 miles which gets crazy when you're doing it multiple times in every sport every year.

I think they're in a decent spot though. They could form some kind of scheduling alliance with the TCL to fill any openings week 1-5 (especially week 4 and 5), if the NLL can't find a 12th there will be schools with an opening every week there. If the Toledo privates can't find a home, they're available. Then schools like Trotwood and LCC could fill any slot week 6-10. They'll fill a full schedule with ease, and I think it'll benefit their basketball program to be independent.

As talked about, I still see them ultimately taking the 12th, football only spot in the NLL, once their last ditch efforts to either add a school (Defiance is a no, Tiffin likely says no) fizzle out and assuming BG/Napoleon don't leave. It's not a bad trip if you're making it Friday nights in the fall, and I don't see the small school division objecting to Lima Senior football.
 

SBClives

Member
I think the biggest question here is the NLL finding a 12th school. No way they go forward with 11. Who is the short list of schools they could have the best chance at getting from another league? Sandusky? Tiffin Columbian?
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
And the travel from Toledo to Lima, while an easy shot down 75, IS 77 miles which gets crazy when you're doing it multiple times in every sport every year.

I think they're in a decent spot though. They could form some kind of scheduling alliance with the TCL to fill any openings week 1-5 (especially week 4 and 5), if the
What is the upside for the TCL to do that? And what is a scheduling "alliance?"
 

dhsdog06

Well-known member
What is the upside for the TCL to do that? And what is a scheduling "alliance?"

Gives one extra team to play week 4 and 5, especially if the SBC ever starts crossovers.

"Alliance" in this case would more just lock Lima into playing TCL teams week 4 and 5, whether it's teams that also show interest or the TCL picks them. That would leave 5 per week instead of 6 looking for games on the 2 hardest week's to schedule.
 

CC Track Fan

Well-known member
I think the biggest question here is the NLL finding a 12th school. No way they go forward with 11. Who is the short list of schools they could have the best chance at getting from another league? Sandusky? Tiffin Columbian?
Those two or Maumee comes back but don't see it happening for any of them. Other option that unlikely to happen pull in Waseon, Defiance and Bryan. I think NLL is much more likely to lose a school and go to 10 then find a 12th.
 

CCHS93

Active member
What is the upside for the TCL to do that? And what is a scheduling "alliance?"
The benefits of a conference is, among others, stability. Teams dont have to worry about scheduling most of their games and can focus on some out of conference matchups. TCL has only 6 teams, which means they have only 5 automatic games per year in football and 10 on basketball. Lima will have 0 automatic games in both. Some sort of deal would allow them to get 5 automatic games each year. Not sure if they would want to be full members for the other sports or not. They could join the BVC for girls soccer or volleyball and would be competitive at best.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
eastisbest said:
What is the upside for the TCL to do that? And what is a scheduling "alliance?"


The benefits of a conference is, among others, ...

I don't believe he was talking full fledged conference and the TCL already has a conference.

Gives one extra team to play week 4 and 5, especially if the SBC ever starts crossovers.

"Alliance" in this case would more just lock Lima into playing TCL teams week 4 and 5, whether it's teams that also show interest or the TCL picks them. That would leave 5 per week instead of 6 looking for games on the 2 hardest week's to schedule.

You appear to be talking about upside for Lima. What does SBC have to do with TCL? For the TCL to lock themselves into something, there would seem to need be some benefit that is going to off-set the obvious increase in cost. It's not going to be ticket revenue, on this we all seem to agree.

To ME, this sounds like discussion from other conferences trying to off-load their problems/guilt trips/whatever on to the TCL. If this were about helping out a far district, the NLL, TRAC and the private schools are better situated to do that. For the TCL teams, Lima is a by individual AD choice OOC option same as any team and vise-versa. Not a conference mandate. Nor should it be. There is no purpose to a legalese "alliance." It would be counter-productive for both the TCL and for Lima.
 

dhsdog06

Well-known member
What does the SBC have to do with the TCL? Everything, if they start playing week 4 and 5 crossovers like I believe someone mentioned earlier in the thread. 2021 week 4 and 5 games for TCL teams....

Start: Clyde & Bellevue
Waite: Brunswick & Howland
Bowsher: Port Clinton & Oak Harbor
Rogers: Walsh Jesuit & Port Clinton
Woodward: Oak Harbor & Edison
Scott: Vermilion & Clyde

12 games, 9 against the SBC. The other 3 against teams in Eastern Ohio. You telling me that if the SBC ever decides to do crossovers instead (or any combo of 8 breaks off and starts their own league) the TCL could just magically solve that big of a scheduling gap?

Lima and the Toledo privates, while not ideal, would make a huge dent. It's not "unloading problems on the TCL." It actually would be HELPING the TCL, but ok. If they don't want it, they can continue to go on the road to who knows where and continue getting pounded. At least here there's one school a couple could beat and 3 options in the same city.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
What does the SBC have to do with the TCL? Everything, if they start playing week 4 and 5 crossovers like I believe someone mentioned earlier in the thread. 2021 week 4 and 5 games for TCL teams....

Start: Clyde & Bellevue
Waite: Brunswick & Howland
Bowsher: Port Clinton & Oak Harbor
Rogers: Walsh Jesuit & Port Clinton
Woodward: Oak Harbor & Edison
Scott: Vermilion & Clyde

12 games, 9 against the SBC. The other 3 against teams in Eastern Ohio. You telling me that if the SBC ever decides to do crossovers instead (or any combo of 8 breaks off and starts their own league) the TCL could just magically solve that big of a scheduling gap?
There really are not a lot of football games in that list that were competitive. Is the SBC paying the TCL to play those games? I guess that's besides the point. Those are recent schedules, not long historical ones. If those games went away, others would replace. Simply because those teams would fill with something, leaving other teams open. It's a zero sum game.

I think you're discussing a problem that isn't there, not yet anyhow. Lima wouldn't fix it anyhow. Lima would still be available for OOC or someone else would without a conference affiliation or an "alliance." I would never suggest locking down on a commitment unless it had potential to balance the books. There's no balancing that commute for an urban district with eyes on the money. Unless they can show it would be economically beneficial, taking in the expense of Lima would attract eyes I suspect the TCL would rather not have on them.
 

CCHS93

Active member
eastisbest said:
What is the upside for the TCL to do that? And what is a scheduling "alliance?"




I don't believe he was talking full fledged conference and the TCL already has a conference.



You appear to be talking about upside for Lima. What does SBC have to do with TCL? For the TCL to lock themselves into something, there would seem to need be some benefit that is going to off-set the obvious increase in cost. It's not going to be ticket revenue, on this we all seem to agree.

To ME, this sounds like discussion from other conferences trying to off-load their problems/guilt trips/whatever on to the TCL. If this were about helping out a far district, the NLL, TRAC and the private schools are better situated to do that. For the TCL teams, Lima is a by individual AD choice OOC option same as any team and vise-versa. Not a conference mandate. Nor should it be. There is no purpose to a legalese "alliance." It would be counter-productive for both the TCL and for Lima.
I don't have a dog in the fight. I just feel bad for Lima because they are in a tough situation. The TCL is also in a tough situation with their number of teams. Some sort of agreement, formal or informal, would benefit both, in my opinion. Lima is very similar to TCL teams in most athletics. Their football is better than most of them. But Start and, occasionally, Rogers, would give them a run for their money. Their basketball is also better than most. But the games would be competitive. On the other sports on the boys side they are on par. On the girls side, their basketball is good and could compete with Start and Rogers (although I think they are a little below those two). Every other sport on the girls side is about the same.

If Lima is without a league, it would be a scheduling nightmare for them for their sports. Football would probably figure something out, but the others would struggle, in my opinion. This idea would give them 5 guaranteed games per year in football and 10 in basketball. Currently in the TRAC they get 7 and 14 games. That is a lot of games to go and find if you are not in a conference or have some sort of relationship.

Although I think the NLL or WBL is a better fit for them (which has been discussed ad nauseam), something between the TCL and Lima would be a great fit as well.

As for the TCL, their league is small, at only 6 teams. They range from D1 through D4. The quality of the TCL is, as you know, suspect. They are forced to find games anywhere they can find them with teams that are independent or have an unusual conference schedule that would allow an OOC game in weeks 4 and 5. Scheduling Lima for each of these schools would eliminate 1 of the 5 OOC games that they need to fill each year. If not Lima, than I think an agreement or something with the Cleveland Senate League or Akron City Series would be beneficial. If not a full schedule than something like the ACC/Big 10 Challenge in NCAA basketball every year.

Just my two cents.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Even with 16 team play-offs there are always teams willing to roll the dice on which city league team will get the conference wins. Start is a solid bet but they can also beat you. Rolling Scott was a loser for the OOC but a winner for the T2's they brought in last season. This brought a couple TCL teams points enough to make play-offs.

Yes, everyone is hurting for Lima but only NLL, TRAC and the private schools are in the economic position to do anything for them. TCL can do OOC but conference commitments? I'd wonder if that is affordable. As I wrote, it would bring outside eyes onto the TCL's economics. I doubt they want that.

For OOC, sure. Not for charity. For the good experience playing Lima can bring if AD and coach's feel the team would benefit.
 

smurfyeah19

Well-known member
Just not enough options in NW Ohio, especially since there's really no mid size Parochials that would work. You've got 3 D2 private schools & a few small D6-D7 ones that can barely keep their doors open. An Elyria Catholic type school would be absolutely perfect in the NLL. That's the big problem with Lima, outside of football/basketball is it worth having them drive up to Perrysburg to get mercied in baseball? Or to lose by dozens of strokes in a golf match in Sylvania? It's probably best for Lima to be independent so they can schedule to skill level based on sport, but aligned in the two main ones. Tough spot all around
 

Upside

Active member
Just not enough options in NW Ohio, especially since there's really no mid size Parochials that would work. You've got 3 D2 private schools & a few small D6-D7 ones that can barely keep their doors open. An Elyria Catholic type school would be absolutely perfect in the NLL. That's the big problem with Lima, outside of football/basketball is it worth having them drive up to Perrysburg to get mercied in baseball? Or to lose by dozens of strokes in a golf match in Sylvania? It's probably best for Lima to be independent so they can schedule to skill level based on sport, but aligned in the two main ones. Tough spot all around
I can't see Lima going north for a league. They also burned too many bridges with the WBL. Lima has shown that they will be a loyal league member but the GWOC seems like the best fit if it would accept them.
 

smurfyeah19

Well-known member
I can't see Lima going north for a league. They also burned too many bridges with the WBL. Lima has shown that they will be a loyal league member but the GWOC seems like the best fit if it would accept them.
I can see it for the revenue sports, but it's going to be quite ugly in the "travel" and "club" sports against the suburban schools of Toledo. They don't have a cross country or golf team, finished 7th in Boys Soccer and last in girls soccer, tennis, volleyball . What good does having them in a league for these sports do anyone? It'd be best if they took the Notre Dame approach, Football/Basketball in NLL, but independent in all other sports
 

933York

Member
I can't see Lima going north for a league. They also burned too many bridges with the WBL. Lima has shown that they will be a loyal league member but the GWOC seems like the best fit if it would accept them.
The GWOC and MVL in the Dayton area will not accept Lima. The GWOC has an even number of all D1 schools relatively close to each other. They kicked Trotwood out after 1 season post MVL schools breaking off because they wanted and even number of teams (Lebanon left the conference) and they were smaller than D1.
 

CCHS93

Active member
I can see it for the revenue sports, but it's going to be quite ugly in the "travel" and "club" sports against the suburban schools of Toledo. They don't have a cross country or golf team, finished 7th in Boys Soccer and last in girls soccer, tennis, volleyball . What good does having them in a league for these sports do anyone? It'd be best if they took the Notre Dame approach, Football/Basketball in NLL, but independent in all other sports
Could or would Lima be a fit in the MAC, BVC, or WBL or whatever other conference for other sports? Did you know that Cleveland St. , Georgia Southern, Appalachian St., and the Mountaineers of West Virginia are all members of the Mid American Conference?

They all are as affiliate members for wrestling (CSU), men's soccer (GSU and WVU), and field hockey (App. St.). Lima would be a good fit talent wise for the non revenue sports in a small school league.
 
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