High School Football Rules Misconceptions (originally posted in 2019)

zebrastripes said:
Are you sure it was a false start, or rather an illegal formation? They have the same signal, but the latter is a live ball foul.
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I could be wrong I thought it was a false start. Thankfully it didn’t hold much bearing in the outcome of the game or was of significance
 
AllSports12 said:
A false start is a dead ball foul. Nothing can happen, other than a personal, unsporting, or flagrant foul after the false start.

If the crew allowed the fumble to stand after a false start, then they messed up....

If the foul was for an illegal formation, that's a live ball foul and the penalty can be declined, allowing for the fumble recovery and the change of possession.
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Thank you for the clarification. It may have been an illegal formation but I thought it was a false start. But it was a huge tilting point in the game so didn’t matter too much I was just a little confused from it
 
Burreaux said:
I could be wrong I thought it was a false start. Thankfully it didn’t hold much bearing in the outcome of the game or was of significance
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Not sure if this happened or not, but PA announcers seem to think the “rolling fists” is always a false start. In week 1 we had a kickoff out of bounds and the announcer announced the foul as a false start. :rolleyes:

All the more reason for schools to get a microphone for the Referee. ;)
 
zebrastripes said:
Incorrect no-call.

Worthy of the coach sending to the OHSAA? Yes. It’s a safety foul that we can’t miss. Also looks like unsportsmanlike conduct by the defender which wasn’t flagged either. Can’t let a player get away with targeting and taunting on the same play, but it’s easy to criticize behind a computer screen.

Suspension worthy? Give me a break. There have been worse misses than that at the Power 5 level that don’t result in a suspension. The difference is those guys have replay to bail them out.
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Remember, my original post was asking about the rule and then the follow up of missed calls such as this. Suspension or perhaps additional training? I think there should be a post Mortem for missed calls like this one.
Maybe they didn’t see it, but should have one of the refs been able to see it, if so who and if not why and maybe changes can be made to help avoid this in the future? That kid got knocked out and had a concussion then they celebrated the hit. IMO, anytime a kid is knocked out, the time of the hit should be documented then the crew should get together on Monday to review any hits that they documented during the game. If they missed it, they missed it but if they don’t try to learn from it then they missed it twice. These are the hits that can’t be missed.
Lastly, this won’t be popular but I am concerned about the future of high school refs in general. Many of the current refs are getting old and the younger generations just aren’t interested in getting screamed at by over zealous parents and coaches. Eventually we will have a shortage and we (parents/coaches) won’t have anyone to blame but ourselves.

Here is another angle from field level. Go to 3:30 mark of the video.
 
zebrastripes said:
If the crew was as bad as you purport, there is nothing stopping either coach or athletic director from sending plays into the league assigner and/or the OHSAA. Heck, there is nothing stopping you from doing so, although you might not get a response or the answer you’re hoping for.

The only one being defensive is you. The film does not lie. If calls were missed, the film will show it, and no assigner worth his salt is going to defend a crew that makes an obvious mistake on film. If the film doesn’t show a missed call, then you either need a better camera or the coach needs to pick his spots better.
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The problem is how many terrible crews are left because no one wants to do it. Varsity crew for my game Friday missed quite a few big time penalties on both sides. Several personal fouls both way after the play and during. I’ll forgive missing terrible holding calls but not plays that are dangerous.
 
BleedPurple13 said:
The problem is how many terrible crews are left because no one wants to do it. Varsity crew for my game Friday missed quite a few big time penalties on both sides. Several personal fouls both way after the play and during. I’ll forgive missing terrible holding calls but not plays that are dangerous.
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Believe me when I say, I can think of plenty of crews and individual officials that have no business being involved in Ohio high school football, and certainly not Friday nights. (In most cases, for reasons other than simply being garbage at officiating football.) There’s a post one or two pages back about young officials not wanting to join crews with bad reputations in the officiating community – they either float around every Friday or stick to subvarsity until a good crew has an opening.

But as has been said on this thread and many others, there is not an easy solution. And unfortunately the problem is going to get worse before it gets better.
 
Pickeringtonsports said:
Remember, my original post was asking about the rule and then the follow up of missed calls such as this. Suspension or perhaps additional training? I think there should be a post Mortem for missed calls like this one.
Maybe they didn’t see it, but should have one of the refs been able to see it, if so who and if not why and maybe changes can be made to help avoid this in the future? That kid got knocked out and had a concussion then they celebrated the hit. IMO, anytime a kid is knocked out, the time of the hit should be documented then the crew should get together on Monday to review any hits that they documented during the game. If they missed it, they missed it but if they don’t try to learn from it then they missed it twice. These are the hits that can’t be missed.
Lastly, this won’t be popular but I am concerned about the future of high school refs in general. Many of the current refs are getting old and the younger generations just aren’t interested in getting screamed at by over zealous parents and coaches. Eventually we will have a shortage and we (parents/coaches) won’t have anyone to blame but ourselves.

Here is another angle from field level. Go to 3:30 mark of the video.
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I don’t think anyone would disagree with you that getting dangerous hits out of our game is of utmost important more than the OHSAA and NFHS.

But, you are never going to eliminate missed calls from any football game. Certainly not at the HS level where we don’t have the luxury of looking at replay like yesterday’s Nebraska/Illinois crew (and they still got one big call wrong after review).
 
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If you want a perfect example of commentators feeding football fans misinformation…

look no further than Joel Klatt clutching his pearls after replay created a VERY OBVIOUS targeting foul in the Penn State/Wisconsin game today.

His mentality of “that’s just football” also perfectly sums up why the targeting rule was put in place to begin with.
 
zebrastripes said:
I thought I had made a thread like this in previous years but I guess with the software update it disappeared.

  • No such thing as "offside" in NFHS and there is no provision allowing the defense to "get back." Encroachment is dead-ball foul as soon as either team enters the neutral zone.
  • A "catchable" ball is not a factor of the pass interference rules.
  • There is no "tackle box" for intentional grounding purposes. A QB must always throw a forward pass in the vicinity of an eligible receiver.
  • An unsuccessful field goal does not go back to the previous spot. It is treated just like a punt (touchback if it crosses the goal line).
  • Any kick that crosses the goal line is an automatic touchback. A kick is a kick until it is possessed. So if a muffed kick crosses the goal line, it's a touchback.
  • A blocked extra point is dead immediately; an intercepted two-point try is dead immediately.
  • In OHSAA overtime the ball is dead immediately when the defense gains possession.
  • There is no previous spot enforcement for fouls by the offense behind the line of scrimmage. For example, holding by a lineman behind the LOS is generally enforced from the spot of the foul, not the previous spot. Yes, that means holding is often a more severe penalty in high school than NCAA or NFL.
  • The holder for a field goal cannot pitch the ball from his knee on a fake. He must rise or else the ball is dead.
  • The only fouls that include automatic first downs are the "roughing" personal fouls - passer, kicker/holder, and snapper.
  • Fouls by the defense during a successful field goal, try, or touchdown-scoring play are not declined by rule. The offense can have the penalty enforced on the try (for a foul during a TD play) or the kickoff.
  • Hurdling is a foul. But only if the player being hurdled is contacting the ground with no part of his body other than one or both feet.
  • Personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls are not the same thing. PFs involve contact and two by one player does not require a DQ. UNS is always noncontact and two by one player results in a DQ.
  • Targeting only includes above-shoulder contact and does not result in DQ unless deemed flagrant. Contact initiated with the crown of the helmet at or below the shoulders is spearing.
  • Headhunting is not football.
  • Most "big hits" and athletic plays (i.e. runners hurdling defenders) that are sensationalized on accounts like Jukes are illegal.
Anyone have anymore? Have a great, fun, and SAFE season.
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So a blocked PAT is immediately dead. Here’s a good one: what happens if a field goal (not a PAT) is blocked and is recovered by the kicking team? What’s the ruling?

Reason I ask is because tonight’s game between Unioto and Huntington featured this exact situation where Unioto was attempting a field goal to tie the game but the kick was blocked and recovered by Unioto. However, the play was still considered live and Unioto ran the blocked field goal in for a game-winning touchdown as time expired. Just curious on whether this should have counted or if Huntington got screwed out of a win.
 
buckeyes2003 said:
So a blocked PAT is immediately dead. Here’s a good one: what happens if a field goal (not a PAT) is blocked and is recovered by the kicking team? What’s the ruling?

Reason I ask is because tonight’s game between Unioto and Huntington featured this exact situation where Unioto was attempting a field goal to tie the game but the kick was blocked and recovered by Unioto. However, the play was still considered live and Unioto ran the blocked field goal in for a game-winning touchdown as time expired. Just curious on whether this should have counted or if Huntington got screwed out of a win.
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If the ball did not cross the line of scrimmage, then the kicking team can advance it
 
buckeyes2003 said:
So a blocked PAT is immediately dead. Here’s a good one: what happens if a field goal (not a PAT) is blocked and is recovered by the kicking team? What’s the ruling?

Reason I ask is because tonight’s game between Unioto and Huntington featured this exact situation where Unioto was attempting a field goal to tie the game but the kick was blocked and recovered by Unioto. However, the play was still considered live and Unioto ran the blocked field goal in for a game-winning touchdown as time expired. Just curious on whether this should have counted or if Huntington got screwed out of a win.
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I'm not a ref. The refs on this thread will give you an official explanation, but a blocked FG is treated like a blocked punt. If it hasn't crossed the line of scrimmage, the kicking team can advance it.

I know from a past life as a statistician that if the defending team blocks a FG attempt, recovers it, and returns it for any type of yardage, it is recorded as punt return yardage according to the NFHS' statisticians' manual.
 
bb9 said:
Regardless, you are correct
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Yeah, but it's better coming from you or any of the other officials who take the time to clarify any issues in this thread as well as the Ask the Ref thread. I appreciate all of you and the thankless job all of you do. (y)?
 
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Mr. Slippery said:
Yeah, but it's better coming from you or any of the other officials who take the time to clarify any issues in this thread as well as the Ask the Ref thread. I appreciate all of you and the thankless job all of you do. (y)?
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Appreciate the kind words!
 
bb9 said:
If the ball did not cross the line of scrimmage, then the kicking team can advance it
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Whether or not the ball crossed the line of scrimmage is irrelevant.

They can recover and advance a kick (hell, they can even pass it or kick it again) no matter if it does or doesn't cross the line of scrimmage.

The key is the kick must be recovered behind the line of scrimmage for this to be legal.
 
AllSports12 said:
Whether or not the ball crossed the line of scrimmage is irrelevant.

They can recover and advance a kick (hell, they can even pass it or kick it again) no matter if it does or doesn't cross the line of scrimmage.

The key is the kick must be recovered behind the line of scrimmage for this to be legal.
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Right it's where the ball is when they pick it up.

What I was saying is that if it never crossed the line, then they definitely can advance it.
 
bb9 said:
Right it's where the ball is when they pick it up.

What I was saying is that if it never crossed the line, then they definitely can advance it.
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Yep. Unfortunately on this play it seems the crew blew an IW and essentially acted like it didn’t happen.

IWs are bad enough, acting like they didn’t happen and misapplying their rules is even worse…
 
bb9 said:
Right it's where the ball is when they pick it up.

What I was saying is that if it never crossed the line, then they definitely can advance it.
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Your original statement could lead the untrained in rules to incorrectly assume that the ball has to cross the line. (it already did via a DM question to me)

You know it, zebrastripes knows it, chs knows it...

The average fan does not..... ;)
 
zebrastripes said:
Yep. Unfortunately on this play it seems the crew blew an IW and essentially acted like it didn’t happen.

IWs are bad enough, acting like they didn’t happen and misapplying their rules is even worse…
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Just saw the video. At that point, no matter what they did, how right or wrong they were, etc. it wasn't going to turn out well.
 
bb9 said:
Just saw the video. At that point, no matter what they did, how right or wrong they were, etc. it wasn't going to turn out well.
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If they had not blown an IW and not used incorrect mechanics, and the same result happened, we would be here talking about what a great play and exciting finish rather than talking about the unfortunate mistakes that should not have happened.
 
Here's a strange situation:

Last night Columbus Grove at Delphos Jefferson, CG had just scored and was going to attempt an onside kick. The ref was getting Grove's kicker set up on the "X" at the 40 yard line, kicker asked if he could move to the hash. Somehow in the process of moving to the hash, the ref got confused and moved the ball back 5 yards to the 35 yard line. Grove's kicker has been all over the country at college camps where he has to kick from the 35, so he didn't even notice the difference. The whole kicking team set up at the 35 yard line and the unaware receiving team was still set up at the 50.

No one said a word or noticed a difference until the kick traveled 12 yards to the 47 yard line and Grove jumped on it to recover. The receiving team never went after the ball because they were thinking it had to cross the 50 before the kicking team could touch it. The refs talked it over and gave the ball to the kicking tea because it had traveled 12 yards before they touched it. Of course the home team was irate because the ball never made it to the 50. Ultimately it wasn't a close game and didn't matter, but I've never seen that happen before
 
BirdDog10 said:
Here's a strange situation:

Last night Columbus Grove at Delphos Jefferson, CG had just scored and was going to attempt an onside kick. The ref was getting Grove's kicker set up on the "X" at the 40 yard line, kicker asked if he could move to the hash. Somehow in the process of moving to the hash, the ref got confused and moved the ball back 5 yards to the 35 yard line. Grove's kicker has been all over the country at college camps where he has to kick from the 35, so he didn't even notice the difference. The whole kicking team set up at the 35 yard line and the unaware receiving team was still set up at the 50.

No one said a word or noticed a difference until the kick traveled 12 yards to the 47 yard line and Grove jumped on it to recover. The receiving team never went after the ball because they were thinking it had to cross the 50 before the kicking team could touch it. The refs talked it over and gave the ball to the kicking tea because it had traveled 12 yards before they touched it. Of course the home team was irate because the ball never made it to the 50. Ultimately it wasn't a close game and didn't matter, but I've never seen that happen before
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Someone on the crew should have noticed that K’s restraining line was wrong and stepped up. Highly unfortunate that didn’t happen.

This situation is not specifically covered by rule (because quite frankly, it should never happen). The right thing to do would be to replay the free kick from the correct spot. Rule 1-1-6 allows this.

ART. 6 ... The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee’s decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.
 
zebrastripes said:
Someone on the crew should have noticed that K’s restraining line was wrong and stepped up. Highly unfortunate that didn’t happen.

This situation is not specifically covered by rule (because quite frankly, it should never happen). The right thing to do would be to replay the free kick from the correct spot. Rule 1-1-6 allows this.

ART. 6 ... The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee’s decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.
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Exactly....

This mistake put a team at a distinct disadvantage.

Re-set the clock, re-set the players, and re-kick the ball. (don't forget to take all the grief that will be coming from both sidelines)

I wonder...... was this crew wearing shorts as well? ;)
 
AllSports12 said:
Exactly....

This mistake put a team at a distinct disadvantage.

Re-set the clock, re-set the players, and re-kick the ball. (don't forget to take all the grief that will be coming from both sidelines)

I wonder...... was this crew wearing shorts as well? ;)
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I get games from an assigner who makes clear: “I don’t care what the Gold Book says. You will not wear shorts on a varsity field if you want to work in this league.”
 
zebrastripes said:
I get games from an assigner who makes clear: “I don’t care what the Gold Book says. You will not wear shorts on a varsity field if you want to work in this league.”
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My kind of an assigner.

Know a guy who is on a crew that wore shorts.... alot....

Last year he posted a picture of his crew...... wearing long pants. I asked him why he didn't post a picture of the crew wearing shorts......

They no longer wear shorts.
 
zebrastripes said:
Someone on the crew should have noticed that K’s restraining line was wrong and stepped up. Highly unfortunate that didn’t happen.

This situation is not specifically covered by rule (because quite frankly, it should never happen). The right thing to do would be to replay the free kick from the correct spot. Rule 1-1-6 allows this.

ART. 6 ... The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee’s decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.
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Would have to be the U. I know that where I am standing I have no idea what line they are kicking from.

K got moved back 5 yards and no coach questioned why?

Was there a five hard penalty and R did not adjust? No coach for R saw the 15 yard wide neutral zone?

This whole thing makes no sense. Which does not mean that it could not have happened.
 
Here's one I saw last night and questioned, despite it going for my team.

Result of the 2nd down play was around a 15 yard gain for a first down. Illegal block in the back is called beyond the first down marker. My assumption is still a first down, mark it back. In this case I believe the foul was 3 yards beyond the marker, so walk it back and it's 1st and 18, 20, something like that.


Somehow they decided it was 1st and 7. Made absolutely no sense. Had it been 7, then I'd assume it's no first down and they replay 2nd down. Otherwise at most you'd think 1st and 10, and likely first and longer.

Ant thoughts or interpretations?
 
dhsdog06 said:
Here's one I saw last night and questioned, despite it going for my team.

Result of the 2nd down play was around a 15 yard gain for a first down. Illegal block in the back is called beyond the first down marker. My assumption is still a first down, mark it back. In this case I believe the foul was 3 yards beyond the marker, so walk it back and it's 1st and 18, 20, something like that.


Somehow they decided it was 1st and 7. Made absolutely no sense. Had it been 7, then I'd assume it's no first down and they replay 2nd down. Otherwise at most you'd think 1st and 10, and likely first and longer.

Ant thoughts or interpretations?
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Yeah, something doesn’t add up. It’s either first and 10 if the ball was still beyond the line to gain after enforcement of the penalty, or repeat second down if it’s still behind. I wonder if the down box was wrong.
 
zebrastripes said:
Yeah, something doesn’t add up. It’s either first and 10 if the ball was still beyond the line to gain after enforcement of the penalty, or repeat second down if it’s still behind. I wonder if the down box was wrong.
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Probably the latter....

Had that issue twice with our box last week.
 
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