AllSports12
Moderator
And unfortunately, even less realize that the substituted players cannot re-enter the game until the ball has become live and the clock has run properly.
Ask the Ref?
- Thread starter Yappi
- Start date
14Red
Well-known member
This is more of a general observation than a question. I watched the girls finals last weekend, the some of the boys tournament games, and I applaud the officials who do this job. It's a labor of love and certainly the pay isn't a reason to get into it.
My comment is the way boys and girls games are officiated and the behavior of the participants.
I know there are not differences in "boys" officials and "girls" officials, but man are they called completely different. It seems like the girls games are called very tight, with little contact, alot of ticky tack calls. While the boys games turn into free for alls and barn ball at times. Why is this?
The second part of my comment is many of the boys (and coaches) are whiners. They contest every call, palms up to the roof, question officials. I rarely if ever see or hear a girl question an officials call. I realize alot of this is what pro and college players do.
My comment is the way boys and girls games are officiated and the behavior of the participants.
I know there are not differences in "boys" officials and "girls" officials, but man are they called completely different. It seems like the girls games are called very tight, with little contact, alot of ticky tack calls. While the boys games turn into free for alls and barn ball at times. Why is this?
The second part of my comment is many of the boys (and coaches) are whiners. They contest every call, palms up to the roof, question officials. I rarely if ever see or hear a girl question an officials call. I realize alot of this is what pro and college players do.
AllSports12
Moderator
I'll address the second part of your comment first......
In my experience, there is no difference in boys and girls coaches and very little difference between boys and girls players. They both know how to complain, they both know how to whine, and they both know how to coach.
As far as the difference in officiating boys and girls games, particularly the "ticky tacky" foul perception.......
The game is different. Anyone who denies that is denying reality. In general, the boys know how to absorb and play through contact without it affecting their rhythm, speed, balance, or quickness. It's not the end all-meets all barometer for calling fouls, but it is something we consider.
Maybe a better way to describe this is the guys generally can get from point A to point B with contact than girls can get from point A to point B with contact. That deviation in the route has to be addressed with a foul call.
14Red
Well-known member
Thanks for posting. I just wonder what games you are doing? I rarely if ever see much emotion from girls on foul calls on them (or lackthereof) boys are constantly questioning calls and making faces at officials. I'm an old dog and back when I played, you even give an official an eyeball and they were staring you down, threating a T.
So here's my issue with the way games are called today, so even if there is contact, or the deviation of the route occurs, because boys can "play through the contact" but girls can't makes it a foul or a play on?? I'd really like to see high school basketball cleaned up. It's way too physical and I feel it impedes the better ball player. A physical player and stop a skilled player if allowed to play a certain way, and I see that way too often these days. Just my opinion.
AllSports12
Moderator
I have officiated thousands of games in my career. Boys and girls, Men and women..... Believe me, the guys don't have a monopoly on whining/complaining/unsporting conduct over the girls......
Nowhere did I say or even suggest that.
I love cheeseburgers
Member
Team A shoots a shot and the ball hits the rim and the ball bounces back to the backcourt. Can team A retrieve the ball and it not be an over and back?
AllSports12
Moderator
Yes
One of the elements for a backcourt violation to occur is there must be team control. Team control for A ended once the ball was released on the try.
Many times we see this play happen........ A shoots and there is a long rebound followed by a scramble for the ball. Nobody possesses the ball and A is the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt followed by A being first to touch in the backcourt......
No violation in this case either
Mackinbiner
Well-known member
I think it was in the 1960's. I've heard there used to be county champions that went on to the tournament.
As late as 1958, when I graduated, the winner of the Morrow county tournament went to the district tournament at Otterbien college.
AllSports12
Moderator
Correct.
Permitting the a wrong player to attempt a free throw is one of the 5 correctable error situations covered under Rule 2-10. The other 4 are....
Failure to award a merited free throw
Awarding an unmerited free throw
Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket
Erroneously counting or canceling a score
In the situation you cite, the free throw and any activity during it, other than unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls, shall be canceled.
Thavoice
Well-known member
Cool cool. Happened in the 1991 game I watched and reference d about the lack of pressure technical called.
In the game winning play of the NBA game the other nite (the lob in from out-of-bounds), the officials ruled it couldn't be goal tending because it was not a shot. I understand that but after looking at the video, I wonder if basket interference should have been called (I am going by NFHS rules, not sure of NBA)
I was wondering the same thing. To me something had to be called and NOBODY explained why it wasn't.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
You’re correct. It’s a violation in NFHS and NCAA. NBA it is a completely legal play.
oxat622
Well-known member
What's your rule of thumb on fouls during long, end of period or end of game shots, like a half court attempt at the fourth quarter buzzer? Are you judging fouling contact the same as you would a normal length shot in the middle of the game? Do you want to only call a foul if the contact affected the shot, or should contact after the release be ignored unless egregious? What about if the shooter can't realistically make the shot, like say if it's a 7th grade game and the smallest kid on the court is trying to baseball heave from the backcourt?
zebrastripes
Well-known member
I judge end-of-period heaves the same way I judge jump shots in the first minute.
The onus is on the defense to not put themselves in a position to get called for a foul on a last-second shot. If a defender whacks the shooter across the arm while he's going up for the shot, it's a foul like like it would be any other time in the game. (This actually happened in an NBA game fairly recently - and it was whistled.)
(As a fan, I often wonder how defenders can be so stupid as to get anywhere close to a guy shooting a half court shot at the buzzer. The odds are much more in the defense's favor if you just let the guy take the shot without getting near him.)
Kurt Rambis
Well-known member
i thought that was a T, too. If the team flagrantly snuck a different shooter in
AllSports12
Moderator
If a player knowingly attempts free throw(s) that the player was not entitled, the penalty is a technical foul assessed to the player.
When we use the term flagrant, an ejection/disqualification accompanies the penalty assessed for the flagrant action.
AllSports12
Moderator
It's a poor headline. That said, the punishment is automatic.
Let's take the discussion to the Debate Forum.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
@AllSports12 A player pushes an opposing teams player or does some type of physical action that would warrant an ejection during a dead ball situation. How is this called on the floor, what type of foul/verbiage are you using to note the ejection with the official scorer?
AllSports12
Moderator
Pushing a player during a dead ball is a Technical Foul. It goes towards the 5 that results in disqualification and is also a team foul.
Physical action during a dead ball that warrants an ejection is a Flagrant Technical Foul. The guilty party is immediately disqualified from the game. It too, is also a team foul.
oxat622
Well-known member
Inspired by the end of the first half of Duke/OSU:
With seconds remaining in a period, A1 is in his airborne shooting motion. The following occur in this clear sequential order: A1 is fouled by B1, the horn sounds and the clock reads 0.0, A1 releases the ball for a try, the try is successful.
Does A1's shot count and we shoot one free throw? Or does it not count and we shoot two/three free throws?
With seconds remaining in a period, A1 is in his airborne shooting motion. The following occur in this clear sequential order: A1 is fouled by B1, the horn sounds and the clock reads 0.0, A1 releases the ball for a try, the try is successful.
Does A1's shot count and we shoot one free throw? Or does it not count and we shoot two/three free throws?
AllSports12
Moderator
I'll address this out of sequence....
- Since time expired before the ball left A1's hand, no points can be scored on the try. (the player is also not an airborne shooter)
- Since B1 fouled A1 while in the act of shooting before time expired, A1 is awarded 2 FTs (possibly 3).
In this situation, A1 shoots the FTs with nobody positioned along the lane lines. If this happens at the end of the 4thi period or any overtime period, how many they attempt will depend on the score at the time of the event.
oxat622
Well-known member
Does that change if the calling official's whistle came clearly before the horn sounds and clock reads 0.0? As in the clock operator did not react in time to stop the clock before it expired. We have a foul that was whistled clearly before time expired, so the thinking could be that the clock should have stopped before it expired.
AllSports12
Moderator
The rules provide us the opportunity to put time back on or take time off the clock in instances of obvious timing errors..... but only when the officials have definite knowledge of the amount of time.
The rules also acknowledge that there are instances where it is virtually impossible to see/hear the official's signal to stop the clock (hand up in the air / actual whistle) then react to that signal immediately. In those cases, which is the scenario you presented, the period will end as I explained above.
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
I am assuming this is just to prevent unneeded FTs when the game is already decided?
AllSports12
Moderator
Correct
If the team is down 2 and the first of 2 FTs is missed, the second is not attempted.
If the game is tied and the first of 2 FTs is successful, the second is not attempted.