Ask the Ref?
- Thread starter Yappi
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AllSports12
Moderator
The following is the NFHS Definition of Legal Guarding position. I bolded in red an oft misunderstood portion of the rule and popular argument regarding "he was moving!".....
Rule 4-23 ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.
Rule 4-23 ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, - provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.
Rule 4-23 ART. 4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent - without the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.
Thavoice
Well-known member
The Charge/block thing drives me nuts.
I have seen quite a few very sketchy charge calls this season. It is almost like refs are wanting and looking to call the charge.
As just a fan my thoughts are: To be called a charge, it should be obvious that it is.....
I miss the days when a player committed a foul, and raised his hand to the scorers table (instead of popping off or showing some other disgust via body language).
Mr. Allsports: Was there ever a rule that stated a player committing a foul should raise his hand? "back in the day" that is how we all did it.
Just curious.
I have seen quite a few very sketchy charge calls this season. It is almost like refs are wanting and looking to call the charge.
As just a fan my thoughts are: To be called a charge, it should be obvious that it is.....
I miss the days when a player committed a foul, and raised his hand to the scorers table (instead of popping off or showing some other disgust via body language).
Mr. Allsports: Was there ever a rule that stated a player committing a foul should raise his hand? "back in the day" that is how we all did it.
Just curious.
AllSports12
Moderator
To be called a charge it must meet the criteria set forth by the rule. Only calling fouls one way or the other because they are obvious creates chaos.
I believe the requirement for raising your hand when whistled for a foul was rescinded in the mid 1970's.... I'll get the exact year for you a little later.
Failing to raise the hand or raising it and dropping in an unsporting fashion earned that player a Technical Foul.
Thavoice
Well-known member
No need to look when it ended. I think if I was a coach, I would require my players to do this.
Talk some sense
Active member
Exactly. I graduated in 78 and know for sure it was in place my sophomore year. There was a lot of leeway for refs with thin skins in how a kid raised his hand and lowered it. Glad they got rid of it.
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
Did the ref at least tell the player the foul was on them to prompt them to raise their hand or were the players just supposed to assume the foul was on them and raise their hand?
AllSports12
Moderator
The mechanic for calling the foul back then called the "Bird Dog".
The calling official raised one hand with a clenched fist (just as today), while pointing at the offender with an open palm facing downward to the chest of the offender. A verbal number of the guilty party was also announced. (later the mechanic was changed to lower the Bird Dog to the waist area as it looked to confrontational)
That Bird Dog was held until the offender raised and then lowered his hand is a sporting fashion.
While no longer a required mechanic for calling fouls, it's still recommended to be used to clarify who the fouls is on. (I use it briefly from time to time). Thankfully, the requirement for the player to raise his hand was put to rest over 40 years ago.
If you watch a youtube video of basketball from the 70's you will see the Bird Dog being employed at the HS and NCAA levels.
Team shots a foul shot... they miss the shot... same team that shot gets the rebound ... they dribble the ball out top to set up offense... another player on same team gets confused and sprints toward the other basket... the person who got the rebound and was setting up the offense gets confused as well and throws long pass to teammate who crossed half court... she makes a wide open layup ...
Is that considered over and back no basket and other team gets ball at half court ... OR... does the basket count for the team whose basket it was and then ball awarded at half court for team who messed up ??
Is that considered over and back no basket and other team gets ball at half court ... OR... does the basket count for the team whose basket it was and then ball awarded at half court for team who messed up ??
TriangleMan
Hates Particle Man
Wasn't there a time when teams switched ends of the court after the 1st and 3rd quarters also? I seem to recall this. If so, when did this end?
FossyWriter8
Active member
Graduated from an Iowa high school in 1987. We had to raise our hand and acknowledge we had committed a foul then.
AllSports12
Moderator
Found out a couple of things in my quick review of the rule change history...
In 1948 the NFHS recommended that the player who committed the foul raise his hand.
In 1950 the NFHS added a rule that required the player who was fouled raise his hand.
In 1972 the NFHS officially added the ruled that the player who committed a personal foul raise his hand.
In 1974 the NFHS rescinded that rule. (thankfully)
There's no mention anywhere about rescinding the rule that the player who was fouled raise his hand. I suspect it was part of an editorial change.
There may have been states, or even coaches for that matter, that still required players guilty of committing a personal foul to raise their hand well after the NFHS rescinded the rule.
AllSports12
Moderator
Not under NFHS rules. (not saying that it didn't happen)
In 1961 the rules provided for the visiting team to choose which basket they would shoot during the first half. In 1992 that rule was changed to read the "team's first half basket is the one furthest from their bench"
AllSports12
Moderator
By rule, what you describe is a backcourt violation once that teammate touched the ball in the back court......
Hopefully, the officials didn't get confused as well and allowed the play to happen
..... If they did, score 2 points for the other team.
Thavoice
Well-known member
Mr. Allsports,
Few weeks you schooled me on the whole inadvertent whistle and how it should be a play on. Funny how I ask it, and it happens soon!
Defensive team gets the rebound on a missed FT. They begin to bring the ball down the court and the horn blows. Everyone freezes and the official blows it dead.
Would you have allowed the sub to come in that was at the scorers table? I contend that he should not have. What say you?
and you will like this.
Last second heave at the end of the third QTR. Two defenders sandwiching a shooter.
Foul called, which was the right call.
Offending player says "I didnt touch him!"
Official tells the scorers table and the PA announces the foul. He called it on the OTHER defender, which was his 4th. The OTHER kid (who originally proclaimed he didnt touch him) then says to the official "It was on me, I was all over the guy"
It got a good chuckle and thought you would appreciate it!
Few weeks you schooled me on the whole inadvertent whistle and how it should be a play on. Funny how I ask it, and it happens soon!
Defensive team gets the rebound on a missed FT. They begin to bring the ball down the court and the horn blows. Everyone freezes and the official blows it dead.
Would you have allowed the sub to come in that was at the scorers table? I contend that he should not have. What say you?
and you will like this.
Last second heave at the end of the third QTR. Two defenders sandwiching a shooter.
Foul called, which was the right call.
Offending player says "I didnt touch him!"
Official tells the scorers table and the PA announces the foul. He called it on the OTHER defender, which was his 4th. The OTHER kid (who originally proclaimed he didnt touch him) then says to the official "It was on me, I was all over the guy"
It got a good chuckle and thought you would appreciate it!
AllSports12
Moderator
Anytime a player has properly reported to the scorer's table they are eligible by rule to enter the game at the next dead ball. (however, only when beckoned onto the court by an official) The official blowing the play dead created that dead ball. Therefore, by rule, the substitute(s) are permitted to enter the court.
?
winbypin
Well-known member
Team A commits a foul in their offensive end of court (on a rebound if I remember correctly). This would have put team B in bonus. This was missed by all involved.
Team B inbounds the ball and brings down court, runs 20 seconds or so of offense then loses ball out of bounds. Team A gains possession. Before Team A inbounds the ball refs have a meeting and puts Team B on the line for the 1-1.
I know there are rules about how and when you can correct an error...was it applied correctly here?
Team B inbounds the ball and brings down court, runs 20 seconds or so of offense then loses ball out of bounds. Team A gains possession. Before Team A inbounds the ball refs have a meeting and puts Team B on the line for the 1-1.
I know there are rules about how and when you can correct an error...was it applied correctly here?
AllSports12
Moderator
If he/she never secures the transition, whether it be a hand off or via a bounce, we should always kill the play, reset the clock (if necessary), and administer the throw-in again.
The same goes for Free Throws.
Thavoice
Well-known member
Thank you. Saw this the other night.
A fan, or should I say, parent complained (go figure, her son was the one who 'stole' the ball when it was not fielded cleanly).
Just wanted to make sure as some of rules do surprise me.
winbypin
Well-known member
Allsports...can you look at my question before thavoices? Thanks
AllSports12
Moderator
Sorry about that.... I simply missed your post
AllSports12
Moderator
There are two things to determine in situations like this....
1) Is the error correctable by rule?
2) Was it discovered within the timeframe prescribed by the rules?
One of the following has to occur to fall into the correctable error category.... (Rule 2-10-1)
a. Failure to award a merited free throw.
b. Awarding an unmerited free throw.
c. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw.
d. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket.
e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score
In your situation, B had free throws coming to them because of the 7th team foul. This meets (a) in the list above as the free throws were merited.
Now in order to correct the error, Rule 2-10-2 states.....
"In order to correct any of the officials’ errors listed in Article 1, such error must be recognized by an official no later than during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started."
When we apply this to your situation we have....
Foul > Dead Ball
Throw In by A > Live Ball
Team A possession for 20 seconds > Clock has properly started, ball remains live
Team A violates by causing the ball to go out of bounds > Dead Ball
The ball becomes live again when the ball is placed at the disposal of B for their throw-in.
If the officials were notified that before B had the ball at their disposal for the throw-in, the error could have been corrected.
The A player that was fouled will be awarded a one-and-one situation with no players lined up along the lane. Since this error included merited free throws and a change of possession (b causing the ball to go out of bounds is a change of possession) play will resume after the free throw(s) with a throw-in by A at the spot where the ball went out of bounds.
Hope that helps....
winbypin
Well-known member
It does. Refs handled correctly then except they allowed people along the lane.
AllSports12
Moderator
Had the error been discovered when B had the ball, then the free throws should have been attempted with people along the lane.
Thavoice
Well-known member
Mr. Allsports,
Saw two things last night that I thought I would never see.
1. Basket waved off because of an offensive player on the baseline who went out of bounds underneath the basket.
2. A fan (student) changed the mind of an official on who last touched a ball that went out of bounds.
Seriously.
Referee called XX ball. Other team goes down to the other end of the court for defense. A student starts to say something to the official and the ref walks closer. They talk for a few seconds. After about 30-45 seconds after the initial call and they are about to inbound, he blows his whistle and give the ball to the other team!!!!!
The kid got an ovation. It was quite......odd and humorous.
Saw two things last night that I thought I would never see.
1. Basket waved off because of an offensive player on the baseline who went out of bounds underneath the basket.
2. A fan (student) changed the mind of an official on who last touched a ball that went out of bounds.
Seriously.
Referee called XX ball. Other team goes down to the other end of the court for defense. A student starts to say something to the official and the ref walks closer. They talk for a few seconds. After about 30-45 seconds after the initial call and they are about to inbound, he blows his whistle and give the ball to the other team!!!!!
The kid got an ovation. It was quite......odd and humorous.
AllSports12
Moderator
Rule 9-3-3 states....
A player shall not leave the court for an unauthorized reason
PENALTY: (Section 3) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. (there is an exception to this when an opponent violates.... the ball then does not become dead until the try or tap ends or an airborne shooter returns to the floor)
If the official deemed the offensive player's actions were in order to gain an advantage, then the call was correct.
I sure hope there's more to the story than that.
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Thavoice
Well-known member
I really don't think so. Afterwards I was listening to him tell his mom about it. He was telling the official how it was last hit buy the other team and a few other students agreed so he changed the call. It was the damnedest thing. Like I said. It was a good 45 seconds after the call, a sub came in, defense went down to the other end of court. When coached asked the other official shrugged his shoulders!
They were were, well, past their prime and, um. Made some odd calls.
AllSports12
Moderator
Good Grief...... ?