Ask the Ref?

MooseJaw

Active member
I'm sure it's been explained on here multiple times but I'm not scrolling through 29 pages. Could someone explain the OHSAA rules on block vs charge and by rule, what determines if the defender has established his position on defense?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I'm sure it's been explained on here multiple times but I'm not scrolling through 29 pages. Could someone explain the OHSAA rules on block vs charge and by rule, what determines if the defender has established his position on defense?
The following is the NFHS Definition of Legal Guarding position. I bolded in red an oft misunderstood portion of the rule and popular argument regarding "he was moving!".....

Rule 4-23 ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.

Rule 4-23 ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, - provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

Rule 4-23 ART. 4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent - without the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
The Charge/block thing drives me nuts.
I have seen quite a few very sketchy charge calls this season. It is almost like refs are wanting and looking to call the charge.

As just a fan my thoughts are: To be called a charge, it should be obvious that it is.....



I miss the days when a player committed a foul, and raised his hand to the scorers table (instead of popping off or showing some other disgust via body language).
Mr. Allsports: Was there ever a rule that stated a player committing a foul should raise his hand? "back in the day" that is how we all did it.

Just curious.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
The Charge/block thing drives me nuts.
I have seen quite a few very sketchy charge calls this season. It is almost like refs are wanting and looking to call the charge.

As just a fan my thoughts are: To be called a charge, it should be obvious that it is.....
To be called a charge it must meet the criteria set forth by the rule. Only calling fouls one way or the other because they are obvious creates chaos.


I miss the days when a player committed a foul, and raised his hand to the scorers table (instead of popping off or showing some other disgust via body language).
Mr. Allsports: Was there ever a rule that stated a player committing a foul should raise his hand? "back in the day" that is how we all did it.

Just curious.
I believe the requirement for raising your hand when whistled for a foul was rescinded in the mid 1970's.... I'll get the exact year for you a little later.

Failing to raise the hand or raising it and dropping in an unsporting fashion earned that player a Technical Foul.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
To be called a charge it must meet the criteria set forth by the rule. Only calling fouls one way or the other because they are obvious creates chaos.




I believe the requirement for raising your hand when whistled for a foul was rescinded in the mid 1970's.... I'll get the exact year for you a little later.

Failing to raise the hand or raising it and dropping in an unsporting fashion earned that player a Technical Foul.
No need to look when it ended. I think if I was a coach, I would require my players to do this.
 

Talk some sense

Active member
To be called a charge it must meet the criteria set forth by the rule. Only calling fouls one way or the other because they are obvious creates chaos.




I believe the requirement for raising your hand when whistled for a foul was rescinded in the mid 1970's.... I'll get the exact year for you a little later.

Failing to raise the hand or raising it and dropping in an unsporting fashion earned that player a Technical Foul.
Exactly. I graduated in 78 and know for sure it was in place my sophomore year. There was a lot of leeway for refs with thin skins in how a kid raised his hand and lowered it. Glad they got rid of it.
 

CedarBuck92

Active member
Did the ref at least tell the player the foul was on them to prompt them to raise their hand or were the players just supposed to assume the foul was on them and raise their hand?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Did the ref at least tell the player the foul was on them to prompt them to raise their hand or were the players just supposed to assume the foul was on them and raise their hand?
The mechanic for calling the foul back then called the "Bird Dog".



The calling official raised one hand with a clenched fist (just as today), while pointing at the offender with an open palm facing downward to the chest of the offender. A verbal number of the guilty party was also announced. (later the mechanic was changed to lower the Bird Dog to the waist area as it looked to confrontational)

1610629027506.png

That Bird Dog was held until the offender raised and then lowered his hand is a sporting fashion.

While no longer a required mechanic for calling fouls, it's still recommended to be used to clarify who the fouls is on. (I use it briefly from time to time). Thankfully, the requirement for the player to raise his hand was put to rest over 40 years ago.

If you watch a youtube video of basketball from the 70's you will see the Bird Dog being employed at the HS and NCAA levels.
 

Bertha

Member
Team shots a foul shot... they miss the shot... same team that shot gets the rebound ... they dribble the ball out top to set up offense... another player on same team gets confused and sprints toward the other basket... the person who got the rebound and was setting up the offense gets confused as well and throws long pass to teammate who crossed half court... she makes a wide open layup ...

Is that considered over and back no basket and other team gets ball at half court ... OR... does the basket count for the team whose basket it was and then ball awarded at half court for team who messed up ??
 

TriangleMan

Well-known member
Wasn't there a time when teams switched ends of the court after the 1st and 3rd quarters also? I seem to recall this. If so, when did this end?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Graduated from an Iowa high school in 1987. We had to raise our hand and acknowledge we had committed a foul then.
Found out a couple of things in my quick review of the rule change history...

In 1948 the NFHS recommended that the player who committed the foul raise his hand.
In 1950 the NFHS added a rule that required the player who was fouled raise his hand.

In 1972 the NFHS officially added the ruled that the player who committed a personal foul raise his hand.
In 1974 the NFHS rescinded that rule. (thankfully)

There's no mention anywhere about rescinding the rule that the player who was fouled raise his hand. I suspect it was part of an editorial change.

There may have been states, or even coaches for that matter, that still required players guilty of committing a personal foul to raise their hand well after the NFHS rescinded the rule.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Wasn't there a time when teams switched ends of the court after the 1st and 3rd quarters also? I seem to recall this. If so, when did this end?
Not under NFHS rules. (not saying that it didn't happen)

In 1961 the rules provided for the visiting team to choose which basket they would shoot during the first half. In 1992 that rule was changed to read the "team's first half basket is the one furthest from their bench"
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Team shots a foul shot... they miss the shot... same team that shot gets the rebound ... they dribble the ball out top to set up offense... another player on same team gets confused and sprints toward the other basket... the person who got the rebound and was setting up the offense gets confused as well and throws long pass to teammate who crossed half court... she makes a wide open layup ...

Is that considered over and back no basket and other team gets ball at half court ... OR... does the basket count for the team whose basket it was and then ball awarded at half court for team who messed up ??
By rule, what you describe is a backcourt violation once that teammate touched the ball in the back court......

Hopefully, the officials didn't get confused as well and allowed the play to happen ;)..... If they did, score 2 points for the other team.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Mr. Allsports,

Few weeks you schooled me on the whole inadvertent whistle and how it should be a play on. Funny how I ask it, and it happens soon!

Defensive team gets the rebound on a missed FT. They begin to bring the ball down the court and the horn blows. Everyone freezes and the official blows it dead.

Would you have allowed the sub to come in that was at the scorers table? I contend that he should not have. What say you?


and you will like this.
Last second heave at the end of the third QTR. Two defenders sandwiching a shooter.
Foul called, which was the right call.

Offending player says "I didnt touch him!"
Official tells the scorers table and the PA announces the foul. He called it on the OTHER defender, which was his 4th. The OTHER kid (who originally proclaimed he didnt touch him) then says to the official "It was on me, I was all over the guy"


It got a good chuckle and thought you would appreciate it!
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Mr. Allsports,

Few weeks you schooled me on the whole inadvertent whistle and how it should be a play on. Funny how I ask it, and it happens soon!

Defensive team gets the rebound on a missed FT. They begin to bring the ball down the court and the horn blows. Everyone freezes and the official blows it dead.

Would you have allowed the sub to come in that was at the scorers table? I contend that he should not have. What say you?
Anytime a player has properly reported to the scorer's table they are eligible by rule to enter the game at the next dead ball. (however, only when beckoned onto the court by an official) The official blowing the play dead created that dead ball. Therefore, by rule, the substitute(s) are permitted to enter the court.


and you will like this.
Last second heave at the end of the third QTR. Two defenders sandwiching a shooter.
Foul called, which was the right call.

Offending player says "I didnt touch him!"
Official tells the scorers table and the PA announces the foul. He called it on the OTHER defender, which was his 4th. The OTHER kid (who originally proclaimed he didnt touch him) then says to the official "It was on me, I was all over the guy"


It got a good chuckle and thought you would appreciate it!
🤣
 
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