Ask the Ref?

zebrastripes

Active member
what is the ruling if the net is grabbed on a shot, intentional or not?

thanks
If the ball is on or within the basket (i.e. touching the rim or in the net), it is basket interference to touch the ball or any part of the basket, including the net.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
what is the ruling if the net is grabbed on a shot, intentional or not?

thanks
Touching and grasping...... two very different acts that carry different penalties.....



Grasping any part of the basket (the net is part of the basket) should result (by rule) in a Technical Foul unless that grasping is done to prevent injury to the player or players....

Intentionally grasping the net and causing the ring to vibrate during a try should result (by rule) in a Technical Foul.

If a player touches the net while the ball is on the ring or within the basket, the a violation for Basket Interference has occurred. Score points for the offense of the defense violates. The ball is dead immediately and no points can be awarded if the offense violates.
 

Philly_Cat

Active member
Touching and grasping...... two very different acts that carry different penalties.....



Grasping any part of the basket (the net is part of the basket) should result (by rule) in a Technical Foul unless that grasping is done to prevent injury to the player or players....

Intentionally grasping the net and causing the ring to vibrate during a try should result (by rule) in a Technical Foul.

If a player touches the net while the ball is on the ring or within the basket, the a violation for Basket Interference has occurred. Score points for the offense of the defense violates. The ball is dead immediately and no points can be awarded if the offense violates.
In your last scenario where the offense violates and the ball is dead, who gets possession?

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Is there any penalty to a team that needs to make a last minute change to their starting line up due to an injury during warm ups?
 

zebrastripes

Active member
Is there any penalty to a team that needs to make a last minute change to their starting line up due to an injury during warm ups?
Nope. It’s permissible to change a starter without penalty after the 10-minute mark if necessary due to illness, injury, illegal apparel, or to attempt the free throws for a pregame technical.
 

Indian1961

New member
What is the protocol for referees during player introduction? At a game recently one of the referees turned his back to the court and conversed with the “official scorer” the whole time introductions were taking place. The first couple players(one from each team) tried to address him but he just ignored them. It was also quite obvious it was not a conversation concerning the game itself. Thanks to all who referee.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
What is the protocol for referees during player introduction? At a game recently one of the referees turned his back to the court and conversed with the “official scorer” the whole time introductions were taking place. The first couple players(one from each team) tried to address him but he just ignored them. It was also quite obvious it was not a conversation concerning the game itself. Thanks to all who referee.
There is no official protocol.

While it seems that over the years the "norm" is for the players to shake hands with the opponent/opponent's coach/opponent's assistant coach then proceed to the table where the officials are, there is no requirement for anyone to shake anyone's hand or bump fists.....

I can't speak for the official you are referring to as 1) I was not there and 2) I (nor you) have spoken to the official. While i generally make myself available for the interaction, there have been a few times that my attention was elsewhere when this occurred.
 

JU-ICE

Member
Can a player who is in-bounding the ball after a made basket, dribble the ball while running the baseline before making the in-bound pass?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
In the NBA a dead ball foul is a technical foul. Does the same rule apply in high school basketball?
Most of the time.....

Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or
flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.

If the contact is intentional or flagrant, it is a Technical Foul. If if was committed by an airborne shooter, it is a Personal Foul.
 

Zunardo

Well-known member
Under NFHS, are there different classes (levels?) of technical fouls, and do all tech fouls count as team fouls?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Under NFHS, are there different classes (levels?) of technical fouls, and do all tech fouls count as team fouls?
There are seven classifications of Technical Fouls......Administrative, Substitute, Player, Bench Personnel, Disqualified Player on The Bench, Assistant Coach, Head Coach. They can be Intentional or Flagrant as well.

And yes, all Technical Fouls are team fouls as well.
 

Zunardo

Well-known member
There are seven classifications of Technical Fouls......Administrative, Substitute, Player, Bench Personnel, Disqualified Player on The Bench, Assistant Coach, Head Coach. They can be Intentional or Flagrant as well.

And yes, all Technical Fouls are team fouls as well.
Thanks. I've heard the term "class A" or "class B" used by officials at the college level, and it seems occasionally the tech will not count toward team fouls. Didn't recall seeing that in HS games.
 

zebrastripes

Active member
Thanks. I've heard the term "class A" or "class B" used by officials at the college level, and it seems occasionally the tech will not count toward team fouls. Didn't recall seeing that in HS games.
Under NCAA men’s rules, only Class A, contact dead ball, and flagrant 2 technical fouls count toward the team foul count. Class B and administrative technical fouls do not. Class B technical fouls also do not count towards a team member’s five fouls for disqualification.
 

Philly_Cat

Active member
I've noticed that the volleyball baselines seem to normally cross the court by the basketball free throw line. I've never seen it happen, but what if a player unintentionally sets up at the volleyball line (about a foot shorter) to take a free throw, the refs don't notice and allow him to take the shot, which he makes. If the point is put on the board and the ball is inbounded. Can it be corrected, or does the point stand?

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zebrastripes

Active member
I've noticed that the volleyball baselines seem to normally cross the court by the basketball free throw line. I've never seen it happen, but what if a player unintentionally sets up at the volleyball line (about a foot shorter) to take a free throw, the refs don't notice and allow him to take the shot, which he makes. If the point is put on the board and the ball is inbounded. Can it be corrected, or does the point stand?
This is not one of the five correctable errors, but Rule 2-3 gives the referee the authority to "make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules" (and this situation is not covered in the rules). So it could theoretically be handled a few different ways, but most likely if it gets to the point that the ball is thrown in and the defense is moving up the court, the crew would likely just eat it.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
This is not one of the five correctable errors, but Rule 2-3 gives the referee the authority to "make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules" (and this situation is not covered in the rules). So it could theoretically be handled a few different ways, but most likely if it gets to the point that the ball is thrown in and the defense is moving up the court, the crew would likely just eat it.
Yeah, invoking 2-3 for a crew screw up isn't going to sit well for the powers that be as that's not the purpose of the rule.

The crew will have to take the grief deserved.
 

Philly_Cat

Active member
This is not one of the five correctable errors, but Rule 2-3 gives the referee the authority to "make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules" (and this situation is not covered in the rules). So it could theoretically be handled a few different ways, but most likely if it gets to the point that the ball is thrown in and the defense is moving up the court, the crew would likely just eat it.
Thanks, was watching a game last night and for some reason the volleyball line really stood out to me during free throws. I could only possibly see it happen on a floor where the paint area isn't actually painted and it's the same wood color as the rest of the floor.

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111411

Moderator
Interesting scenario last night.

Official A calls a charge.
Official B, after a a second or so, calls a block.
They look at each other, but do not confer.
Official B signals to me at the table, block on the defensive player.
Then, Official A signals to me at the table, charge on the offensive player.
He then walks to the table, tells me that it's a double foul, and walks away.
We hit the horn to call him over and ask if it's a change of possession arrow.
He told me no because the play was at the offensive end (the offense had the arrow)
The third official, the lead, never came over and was never consulted.

Was this correct?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Interesting scenario last night.

Official A calls a charge.
Official B, after a a second or so, calls a block.
They look at each other, but do not confer.
Official B signals to me at the table, block on the defensive player.
Then, Official A signals to me at the table, charge on the offensive player.
He then walks to the table, tells me that it's a double foul, and walks away.
We hit the horn to call him over and ask if it's a change of possession arrow.
He told me no because the play was at the offensive end (the offense had the arrow)
The third official, the lead, never came over and was never consulted.

Was this correct?
The dreaded blarge.

By NFHS rules this is a double foul, so they got that correct, but they messed up in administering the foul.

By rule if the ball goes in the basket, the basket counts (no longer a player control foul, but a double foul) and play resumes at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in by B from anywhere along the end line. if the ball did not enter the basket, the point of interruption is a try in flight and the ball would be put back into play using the alternating possession arrow.a
 

Zunardo

Well-known member
Looking for help here, trying to understand the concept of a double foul, where there is a charge followed by a block. How is that possible? To me, that's like a receiver and a DB both being whistled for pass interference at the same time.

Once the charge is called, how is it possible for the defender to block, or maybe foul the shooter/dribbler on the hand? Isn't the play dead? And why does the basket count?

Thanks.
 

111411

Moderator
The dreaded blarge.

By NFHS rules this is a double foul, so they got that correct, but they messed up in administering the foul.

By rule if the ball goes in the basket, the basket counts (no longer a player control foul, but a double foul) and play resumes at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in by B from anywhere along the end line. if the ball did not enter the basket, the point of interruption is a try in flight and the ball would be put back into play using the alternating possession arrow.a
The ball did not go in.

My guess was a change in the possession arrow, but the officials are the bosses. The lead official has been around for over 30 years.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Looking for help here, trying to understand the concept of a double foul, where there is a charge followed by a block. How is that possible? To me, that's like a receiver and a DB both being whistled for pass interference at the same time.

Once the charge is called, how is it possible for the defender to block, or maybe foul the shooter/dribbler on the hand? Isn't the play dead? And why does the basket count?

Thanks.
Many officials can't grasp this play as well.

First, we start with where the problem occurs, the officials..... Mechanically, only one signal should have been displayed between the two whistles. When both conflicting signals are displayed by the two officials, the NFHS rule and Case Book Play kicks in making this a double foul.

Next, we look at the rule to support this double foul. A double foul is defined as "a double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commit personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time ". In this situation there is only one contact event, which is the collision between the two players. The conflicting calls (signals) change the dynamics of the play.

With regards to the the status of the ball.... you are correct in stating that the ball becomes dead on a player control foul. However, the conflicting call by the other official (blocking foul) creates a double foul by rule and definition. With a double foul, a try or tap in flight does not become dead.

Finally.... here is the Case Book Play that has this exact situation...


4.19.8 SITUATION C:

A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official rules a blocking foul on B1 and the other official rules a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful.

RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
The ball did not go in.

My guess was a change in the possession arrow, but the officials are the bosses. The lead official has been around for over 30 years.
These thing happen so infrequently that it's not surprising that even a seasoned vet can foul it up.
 

zebrastripes

Active member
111411,

You didn’t mention the status of the ball in your play. AS12’s citation is correct for a try in flight, but if the ball is still in control of the offensive player, that makes it dead immediately and no goal can be scored.
 

111411

Moderator
111411,

You didn’t mention the status of the ball in your play. AS12’s citation is correct for a try in flight, but if the ball is still in control of the offensive player, that makes it dead immediately and no goal can be scored.
The offensive player "flipped" the ball upward, but it only went a few feet.

I would assume that would go as an attempt, but the ball had no chance of going in.

In no way am I criticizing the officials, but just asking for a clarification of the ruling. I've been sitting at the table for well over 30 years, so I know how under appreciated the officials are.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
To further clarify the possibilities in the situation where one official signals block and one official signals charge...... ( I defaulted to the ball released, followed by contact as that is the situation that has always been presented to be for discussion by officials and others)


- If the ball has not been released by A1 when contact occurs. --> The ball is dead immediately and no basket can be scored. Report both fouls. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a designated spot throw-in for A nearest the spot of the fouls as A retained player and team control when the fouls occurred.

- If the ball has been released on a try by A1, followed by contact, and try is successful. --> Score basket, report both fouls. Play is resumed at the point of interruption which is a throw-in for B throw-in anywhere along the the end line.

- If the ball has been released on a try by A1, followed by contact, and the try is unsuccessful. --> Report both fouls. Play is resumed at the point of interruption using the alternating possession arrow for a throw-in at the spot nearest the foul, as team control ended once the ball was released on the try.

- If the ball has been released on a pass to teammate when the contact occurs. --> Report both fouls. Play is resumed at the point of interruption by awarding A a designated spot throw in nearest to where the contact occurs, as A maintained team control on a pass.


In no way am I criticizing the officials, but just asking for a clarification of the ruling. I've been sitting at the table for well over 30 years, so I know how under appreciated the officials are.
I know you aren't. This shows that it's a rare occurrence and catches many off guard.


And thank you for what you have done for so long. A well run table makes the game run so much soother for the officials than people can fathom.
 
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