Ask the Ref?
- Thread starter Yappi
- Start date
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
This makes me wonder if they know they aren't supposed to do it.
AllSports12
Moderator
I'm a bit skeptical on this one.
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
Completely agree with the skepticism
If an OH HS team ends up with 6 players on the court after multiple substitutions on a dead ball.
And approximately 10 seconds go by after substitutions with officials one arm still up in the air before a FT after substitutions.
And under basket official holds ball instead of giving to FT shooter.
Are officials to notify the offending team to remove a player from the court?
Or is it up to the offending teams staff to get the extra player off the floor to avoid a violation?
And approximately 10 seconds go by after substitutions with officials one arm still up in the air before a FT after substitutions.
And under basket official holds ball instead of giving to FT shooter.
Are officials to notify the offending team to remove a player from the court?
Or is it up to the offending teams staff to get the extra player off the floor to avoid a violation?
AllSports12
Moderator
When the officials know that there are more than 5 on the court, then they should not make the ball live until that number gets to 5. They should communicate with the Head Coach in a manner such as, "Hey you have 6".
Possession arrow- Back in the 90s I remember a coach taking a purposeful 5 second violation with something like .4 seconds left in the 1st quarter as to not warrant losing the possession arrow for the start of the 2nd quarter. Is this still the case? I saw a team inbounding after a jump ball this week.. They turned it over (threw it to the other team). The scorer still switched the arrow to the opposing team. (The team passing it in never gained possession). Is this still a usable tactic? If not why do we still wait until the ball is passed in to flip the arrow (instead of just flipping it when you hand the ball to the team with possession)? Thanks in advance!
This exact situation happened in one of our boys games 7 years ago. We got fouled on a shot attempt with .5 seconds left. The opposing team called timeout before we attempted any FTs. We attempted - and made - the first FT. Only then was it realized the other team had 6 players on the floor. We made the second FT, then both technical FTs, and won by 2.
AllSports12
Moderator
A 5 second violation has nothing to do with the possession arrow. It's simply a violation which results in the opponent being awarded a designated spot throw-in at the spot nearest to the violation. The arrow does not change on this.
Not sure what the tactic is here. The arrow is reversed as soon as .... a) the passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds, b) The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of bounds, except as in 7-5-7, c) the throw-in team commits a throw-in violation
Answered above
Except. 7-5-7 (so it does not change on a 5 second rule). And it is never passed in or touched. So the tactic would still work to take a purposeful 5 second call to save the possession arrow? Per what you just listed, correct?
Just to clarify what I’m looking for…. It’s my possession going into 4th quarter. 3rd quarter with 0.5 seconds left there is a jump ball.
To save from losing my arrow to start the 4th, I can act like we are trying to inbound it, take a 5 second call and the arrow should never change because we never possessed the ball in bounds or anyone touched it in bounds.
That’s what I’m asking. I’ve seen it done many years ago.. but nothing recent.
Thanks for any clarification
To save from losing my arrow to start the 4th, I can act like we are trying to inbound it, take a 5 second call and the arrow should never change because we never possessed the ball in bounds or anyone touched it in bounds.
That’s what I’m asking. I’ve seen it done many years ago.. but nothing recent.
Thanks for any clarification
AllSports12
Moderator
7-5-7 has no bearing on this play because an AP Throw-in will never occurr after a made or an awarded goal.
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AllSports12
Moderator
If this was done, even many years ago, it was handled incorrectly. When A (throwing team) violates on an AP Throw-In, they lose the opportunity to make that AP Throw-In. B is awarded a Throw-In due to the violation and the arrow is reversed to them for an AP Throw-In to begin the 4th quarter. (6-4-5; 6.4.5 Situation A)
A violation by B or fouls by either team during the throw in will not cause the arrow to be changed. Only a violation by A will cause the arrow to be switched.
Rule 6-4 -- Alternating Possession
ART. 5 . . . The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow. If the defensive team commits a violation during the throw-in, the possession arrow is not switched.
Case Book 6.4.5 Situation A
Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating procedure. Team A commits a violation.
Ruling: B's ball for a throw-in because of the violation. In addition, the possession arrow is reversed and pointed towards B's basket. Team B will have the next throw-in opportunity under the alternating procedure. Team A has lost it's opportunity by virtue of the violation. A violation by A during an alternating-possession throw-in is the only way a team loses it's turn under this procedure.
Comment: If a foul by either team occurs before an alternating possession throw-in ends. the foul is penalized and play continues as it normally would, but the possession arrow is not reversed. The same team will still have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. The arrow is reversed when the alternating-possession throw-in ends (6-4-4)
Really excellent clarification. I could not find that anywhere.
But then is there still one small loop hole per the last comment you have… If I’m sitting with only 2 team fouls and don’t mind setting say a moving screen during the inbound with that short time? On the whistle, before the inbound it says the penalty is enforced (so other teams ball with 0.5) but no arrow change.
Correct, or no?
Thanks again!
But then is there still one small loop hole per the last comment you have… If I’m sitting with only 2 team fouls and don’t mind setting say a moving screen during the inbound with that short time? On the whistle, before the inbound it says the penalty is enforced (so other teams ball with 0.5) but no arrow change.
Correct, or no?
Thanks again!
AllSports12
Moderator
Correct However, it's not a loop hole in the rule. If a coach wants to forego a team foul and an opportunty for the opponent to foul you while trying score, it's their choice.
That said, there’s a reason why I have never seen this strategy implemented (in either games I worked or games I watched) in over 40 years of officiating.
Apparently, the coaches value that team foul more than the possession to start the period.
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Haha. Point taken. I guess I got carried away and a team foul is a little more valuable than the 5 second violation that shouldn’t have worked all those years ago. Thanks again for clarifying
AllSports12
Moderator
Two hands is automatic.
I wish it was lol... it is inconsistently applied at the very least.
Are there specific rules on jump balls being called?
HS Girls games if an opposing player touches the ball while in possession many officials call jump ball immediately.
HS Boys games, officials usually make sure “dual possession for a second or 2”.
is there a specific time determined to be the rule and is it the same for girls and boys?
Too often in HS girls games, guards attacking bigs who have gained a defensive RB and try to”tie them up” without ramifications.
If a big would do the same to a guard anywhere on the court a foul would WITHOUT A DOUBT be called on the big.
Are there specific rules that allow “tie up/reaching in” on a defensive RB?
If any contact is made with two hands by the person trying to “tie up” the RBer shouldn’t a foul be called?
I don’t believe any player RBing ball has any recourse to clear out with arms, why can players reach in without fouls being called.
Don’t say “if RBing player chins the ball tie ups won’t happen”.
If elbows are up in proper “chin RB” position fouls are called on the RBer.
It’s getting ridiculous to watch kids not get back on defense and attack rebounder, Club ball makes it to HS!
HS Girls games if an opposing player touches the ball while in possession many officials call jump ball immediately.
HS Boys games, officials usually make sure “dual possession for a second or 2”.
is there a specific time determined to be the rule and is it the same for girls and boys?
Too often in HS girls games, guards attacking bigs who have gained a defensive RB and try to”tie them up” without ramifications.
If a big would do the same to a guard anywhere on the court a foul would WITHOUT A DOUBT be called on the big.
Are there specific rules that allow “tie up/reaching in” on a defensive RB?
If any contact is made with two hands by the person trying to “tie up” the RBer shouldn’t a foul be called?
I don’t believe any player RBing ball has any recourse to clear out with arms, why can players reach in without fouls being called.
Don’t say “if RBing player chins the ball tie ups won’t happen”.
If elbows are up in proper “chin RB” position fouls are called on the RBer.
It’s getting ridiculous to watch kids not get back on defense and attack rebounder, Club ball makes it to HS!
AllSports12
Moderator
If you meant "held ball", yes.
Rule 4-25 - HELD BALL
A held ball occurs when:
- Opponents have eir hands so firmly on the ball that control - cannot be obtained without undue roughness.
- An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.
I believe you are exaggerating here
The NFHS eliminated separate rules for boys and girls in 1976
It's not illegal to "try to tie them up"
More exaggeration
Neither "tie up" or "reaching in" are mentioned under the rules
Judgment call by the official
While a player may legally extend their arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under their chin or against their body, they may not excessively swing their arms or elbows, even without contacting their opponent.
Because it's perfectly legal.
Had one last night. Player chinned it and the opponent grabbed the ball, resulting in a held ball.
Even more exaggeration.
This forum is for serious questions about rules and mechanics. We welcome the questions, but leave the editorializing and the exggerations for the main forum.
Thanks
AllSports12
Moderator
Agreed 100%
AllSports12
Moderator
There is no specific time noted in the rules.
The rule says if a team does not make a thrower after a time-out or the intermission between any quarter, the resumption of play procedure shall be used to prevent delay.... that procedure is as follows....
a. The ball shall be put in play if Team A is ready or it shall be placed on the floor.
b. The throw-in count shall begin and if a violation occurs, the procedure will be repeated for Team B.
c. Following a violation by one team only, if that team continues to delay when authorized to make a throw-in, it is a technical foul.
d. Following a violation by both teams, any further delay by either team is a technical foul.
As an officiating crew, we alert the team that the first horn has sounded and they should be getting ready to resume play. When the second horn is sounded signifying the end of the time-out, the crew notifies the team that the time out has ended and the ball will soon be whistled ready to play.
Any determination of a team delaying returning to the court is solely the judgement of the crew.
CasualFan24
Well-known member
It is in the book - but how do you actually feel about it? I think this is how you easily weed out a bad official - show me someone who does this, puts the ball down and starts counting, and I'll show you a bad official.
AllSports12
Moderator
The question that I answered was.....
"In OH HS, is there an actual amount of time in rules before team needs to take possession of ball out of bounds after 2nd Horn ending Time Out?"
There is nothing in the rule book that directs us to employ the resumption of play procedure based on specific amount of time that has elapsed after the second horn. The officials determine whether or not teams are delaying.
My personal feelings about this or any other rule are irrelevant to what I do on the floor. There are a handful of rules across the sports that I work that I personally disagree with. That said, I do not ignore those rule enforcements. When/if they change, then I will adjust accordingly.
A better way to phrase this is "show me someone who makes a habit of doing this, puts the ball down and starts counting, and I'll show you a bad official".....
OkolonaBlues
Member
What would you do if there was significant delays?
AllSports12
Moderator
When the second horn sounds, we are in the huddle using our voice to let them know the "time out is over, we are ready to play"...... if that doesn't work, then we tell them again..... if that doesn't work, we them we are starting without them, either by advising that we will put the ball on the floor or will give it to the other team.
Assistant coaches are vital in this process. We (crews I work with) will idenitfy one assistant from each team before the game and tell them, "your responsibility tonight is to get your team out of the huddle"
Utilizing the game management techniques noted above have allowed me to get through 4+ decades of officiating basketball rarely using the resumption of play procedure.
Last time was last year....... we put the ball down 17 seconds after the second horn sounded. Team A was still sitting on their bench.
If that makes the three of us working that game bad officials..... so be it.
Assistant coaches are vital in this process. We (crews I work with) will idenitfy one assistant from each team before the game and tell them, "your responsibility tonight is to get your team out of the huddle"
Utilizing the game management techniques noted above have allowed me to get through 4+ decades of officiating basketball rarely using the resumption of play procedure.
Last time was last year....... we put the ball down 17 seconds after the second horn sounded. Team A was still sitting on their bench.
If that makes the three of us working that game bad officials..... so be it.