Ask the Ref?

[CasualFan24]

When the second horn sounds, we are in the huddle using our voice to let them know the "time out is over, we are ready to play"...... if that doesn't work, then we tell them again..... if that doesn't work, we them we are starting without them, either by advising that we will put the ball on the floor or will give it to the other team.

Assistant coaches are vital in this process. We (crews I work with) will idenitfy one assistant from each team before the game and tell them, "your responsibility tonight is to get your team out of the huddle"

Utilizing the game management techniques noted above have allowed me to get through 4+ decades of officiating basketball rarely using the resumption of play procedure.

Last time was last year....... we put the ball down 17 seconds after the second horn sounded. Team A was still sitting on their bench.

If that makes the three of us working that game bad officials..... so be it.

What would you do if there was significant delays?

I just feel that it is preventable. The official that was responsible for alerting that team of the first horn, should (as Allsports said) be there at the huddle telling them they need to come out of the timeout RIGHT NOW. Then once the team disburses, a conversation with the head coach about this is the last time you're going to be late coming out of the timeout - and issue the threat of starting play without them the next time it happens. Obviously if this is continued to be ignored then yes, you can take drastic measures like putting the ball down and starting the count.

I kind of think of it this way - what would OHSAA or any observer say to you in the locker room if you did or called "x" during a district, regional or state playoff game? This is one of those things - an observer is going to eat you alive in the locker room for putting the ball down and starting a count during a game like that - and there is no reason to treat a regular season game any differently IMO. Now on the flip side, observers will also get on you if you're not getting the teams out of the huddles quick enough too....but I think the consequences of that are less than that of putting the ball down and counting....

In this situation - is it within the rule for an official to issue a delay of game warning?

 

[AllSports12]

I just feel that it is preventable. The official that was responsible for alerting that team of the first horn, should (as Allsports said) be there at the huddle telling them they need to come out of the timeout RIGHT NOW. Then once the team disburses, a conversation with the head coach about this is the last time you're going to be late coming out of the timeout - and issue the threat of starting play without them the next time it happens. Obviously if this is continued to be ignored then yes, you can take drastic measures like putting the ball down and starting the count.

I kind of think of it this way - what would OHSAA or any observer say to you in the locker room if you did or called "x" during a district, regional or state playoff game? This is one of those things - an observer is going to eat you alive in the locker room for putting the ball down and starting a count during a game like that - and there is no reason to treat a regular season game any differently IMO. Now on the flip side, observers will also get on you if you're not getting the teams out of the huddles quick enough too....but I think the consequences of that are less than that of putting the ball down and counting....

- Preventable the vast majority of the time. This is a rare occurrence, so the officials must be doing something right.

- As far as District, Regional, and State games...... If the situation warrants it, then it warrants it. (you played both sides of the fence with the observers )

In this situation - is it within the rule for an official to issue a delay of game warning?

No !! This does not meet the criteria set forth by the rules to issue a delay of game warning.

The resumption of play procedure has the penalties built in.....

- If against the throwing team, they face a throw-in violation or may turn the ball over due to a hurried return to the court resulting in an intercepted pass and/or and easy bucket for the opponent.

- If against the opponent of the throwing team, an unrestricted throw-in and potential uncontested bucket.

- Technical fouls if either team doesn't get the message and repeats their delay actions

 

[CasualFan24]

- Preventable the vast majority of the time. This is a rare occurrence, so the officials must be doing something right.

- As far as District, Regional, and State games...... If the situation warrants it, then it warrants it. (you played both sides of the fence with the observers )

No !! This does not meet the criteria set forth by the rules to issue a delay of game warning.

The resumption of play procedure has the penalties built in.....

- If against the throwing team, they face a throw-in violation or may turn the ball over due to a hurried return to the court resulting in an intercepted pass and/or and easy bucket for the opponent.

- If against the opponent of the throwing team, an unrestricted throw-in and potential uncontested bucket.

- Technical fouls if either team doesn't get the message and repeats their delay actions

What always got me with this rule - is there is a really simple solution to this that isn't part of the rule. If a coach doesn't get out on the 2nd whistle, hit them with another charged timeout. I know that's not the rule, but wouldn't it solve a lot of the issue? I bet coaches will make sure they get out on time for fear of losing a valuable timeout! If they're out of timeouts, technical. Would cure a lot of headaches!

 

[AllSports12]

What always got me with this rule - is there is a really simple solution to this that isn't part of the rule. If a coach doesn't get out on the 2nd whistle, hit them with another charged timeout. I know that's not the rule, but wouldn't it solve a lot of the issue? I bet coaches will make sure they get out on time for fear of losing a valuable timeout! If they're out of timeouts, technical. Would cure a lot of headaches!

Your desired response is already the result of the rule.

In the less than two handfulls of occasions I have seen the respumption of play procedure implemented, I have yet to see the delaying team not frantically rushing onto the court when they hear that whistle blown and the ball either being placed on the floor or handed to their opponent for an uncontested throw-in. I also have never seen an offending team not get out of the huddle on time after every subsequent time out interval.

 

[Smarty2022]

What always got me with this rule - is there is a really simple solution to this that isn't part of the rule. If a coach doesn't get out on the 2nd whistle, hit them with another charged timeout. I know that's not the rule, but wouldn't it solve a lot of the issue? I bet coaches will make sure they get out on time for fear of losing a valuable timeout! If they're out of timeouts, technical. Would cure a lot of headaches!

Just making up Rules would cure a lot of headaches? I’d think that lead to more headaches!! Folks are going to get fired up quickly as soon as someone just starts making sh it up!!

 

[CasualFan24]

Just making up Rules would cure a lot of headaches? I’d think that lead to more headaches!! Folks are going to get fired up quickly as soon as someone just starts making sh it up!!

I'm not stating to just make it as we go - I'm suggesting a rule change boss. How many years you been putting on the stripes?

 

[AllSports12]

I'm not stating to just make it as we go - I'm suggesting a rule change boss.

Submit the recommendation to the DOD. Don't look for it to go anywhere, because it's not a problem.

 

[TriangleMan]

Thought this would've been asked already but couldn't find it anywhere. Saw a lot of yes/no on Facebook talking about NCAA rules and a gather step allowance.

This past Sunday, did Caitlin Clark travel on this game winning shot?

Caitlin Clark nails sensational buzzer-beater 3 for Iowa win - ESPN Video

Caitlin Clark comes up big for Iowa with a clutch, buzzer-beating 3-pointer for Iowa.

www.espn.com

 

[AllSports12]

Thought this would've been asked already but couldn't find it anywhere. Saw a lot of yes/no on Facebook talking about NCAA rules and a gather step allowance.

This past Sunday, did Caitlin Clark travel on this game winning shot?

Caitlin Clark nails sensational buzzer-beater 3 for Iowa win - ESPN Video

Caitlin Clark comes up big for Iowa with a clutch, buzzer-beating 3-pointer for Iowa.

www.espn.com

Gather Step is an NBA rule.

From the NCAA Women's Rule Book..... Rule 9-5 - Traveling (parts pertinent to this play are bolded)

Art. 4. A player who catches the ball while moving or ends a dribble may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both, in which case neither foot can be the pivot foot.

Art 5. After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. The pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.

She caught the ball with both feet off the court. Her right foot returned to the floor followed by her left foot. This established her right foot as the pivot foot. She legally picked that foot off the floor, but returned it to the floor before the ball was released on the try for goal.....

This was a travel

 

[SWOHHSfan]

Free throw box out position, final move?
Anyone know if a rule would apply to women/men/college/HS for below situation?

Saw something I have never seen in Indiana vs Florida Gulf Coast Men's game this past Tuesday.

Indiana was set to shoot FTs, prior to ref handing ball to IU shooter in a very late game tight situation the IU RBers on foul line switched sides of the lane (happens a lot).
FGCU players then switched as well to be matched up with certain player (happens a lot).

Usually stops there and offensive rebounders realize the defensive rebounders are going to switch with them.
Then something I had never seen.

IU players continued to switch side with FGCU players then switching with them.
At least 4-5 times.

Referees got somewhat upset (rightfully so), one went to scorers table and pointed to both benches (might have been some sort of warning but not certain).

Question: Does the offensive player, defensive player, home team, visiting team have the last move prior to shooter receiving ball from official?
Something like home team in hockey has last line change.

Hopefully I explained properly and would appreciate any answer/opinion.

 

[Hooper419]

Good explanation. As the defensive team I would want my best rebounder to be on the bottom against their best rebounder. If they switched I would want to switch. Where does it end? Really good question.

 

[AllSports12]

Free throw box out position, final move?
Anyone know if a rule would apply to women/men/college/HS for below situation?

Saw something I have never seen in Indiana vs Florida Gulf Coast Men's game this past Tuesday.

Indiana was set to shoot FTs, prior to ref handing ball to IU shooter in a very late game tight situation the IU RBers on foul line switched sides of the lane (happens a lot).
FGCU players then switched as well to be matched up with certain player (happens a lot).

Usually stops there and offensive rebounders realize the defensive rebounders are going to switch with them.
Then something I had never seen.

IU players continued to switch side with FGCU players then switching with them.
At least 4-5 times.

Referees got somewhat upset (rightfully so), one went to scorers table and pointed to both benches (might have been some sort of warning but not certain).

Question: Does the offensive player, defensive player, home team, visiting team have the last move prior to shooter receiving ball from official?
Something like home team in hockey has last line change.

Hopefully I explained properly and would appreciate any answer/opinion.

Neither the NCAA nor the NFHS have rules that dictate who shall take a lane position first and who takes a lane position last. All the rule provides is for reasonable time for the teams to take their respective positions along the lane line.

When the silliness enters the picture, just as it did at the end of the game you described, the officials now are forced to step in and force the matter to be resolved.

Under NCAA rules, the official(s) will issue a delay of game warning to each team for this. Both teams were guilty of delaying the ball from being promptly put into play, so each team received a delay of game warning. The officials told the players to pick a spot and stay there....now..... Anyone who ignored that directive would be issued a Technical Foul. If this occurs in the early stages of the game, the warning stands until the game is over. (one time warning)

The NFHS delay of game warning does not apply here. Under NFHS rules, a delay of game warning can only be issued for a defender violating the throw-in plane, a huddle by either team and contact with the free-thrower, interfering with the ball after a goal, and failure to have the court ready for play aftger a time out. In this case, the official(s) shall instruct the players to take a spot along the lane and stay there. If any of the players ignore that directive, a Technical Foul would be assessed against them.

 

[SWOHHSfan]

Thanks, makes sense.
Seems like there should be a simple standard/rule of who gets their favored matchup. O, D, home or away.

 

[AllSports12]

Thanks, makes sense.
Seems like there should be a simple standard/rule of who gets their favored matchup. O, D, home or away.

Since this is a rare occurrence and there already is a remedy in place, (get there, stay there or else...) I doubt that anything would change if a new rule was proposed.

 

[SWOHHSfan]

Game Situation:
Team down 3 in OT, shooter fouled attempting a 3 with what officials rule as 0.0 left on clock. 3 shots awarded
Officials wave all players off foul line other than shooter, similar to technical foul situation

6 Questions from 1 play
End of OT in Ohio Boys HS game Friday night, assuming(?) girls rules are same?
1) Can a foul occur with 0.0 on clock or should the clock realistically be at 0.1 or more?
2) Is it a rule that all players should be/are waved off FT line with 0.0 left on clock?
3) If time is left on clock during any random shooting foul, 2:05 left in Q2 for example, or if 0.1 seconds left in game;
Is it a rule that Defensive team has to have 2 players in closest legal spot to basket during FT attempts?

Game Situation Update:
FT shooter makes first 2 FTs and has 1 remaining to tie game.
Opposing coach calls Timeout

4) Is it a rule that TOs can be allowed/awarded with 0.0 on a end of quarter, half or game situation?
5) Is it a rule that coaches (either team), are allowed to call a timeout between 2 technical FTs?
Different case in this situation but got me thinking, assuming they are able, but uncertain.

FT shooter misses final FT attempt and game over

All decisions seemed correct, root of the question/situation.
It's usually more comfortable to shoot FTs with players on lane as opposed to by yourself.
6) Looking to ascertain if there is a rule where Coach of player attempting FTs could have "requested" that players be on FT line?

Thanks for any clarification.

 

[AllSports12]

Great questions..... answered in red

Game Situation:
Team down 3 in OT, shooter fouled attempting a 3 with what officials rule as 0.0 left on clock. 3 shots awarded
Officials wave all players off foul line other than shooter, similar to technical foul situation

6 Questions from 1 play
End of OT in Ohio Boys HS game Friday night, assuming(?) girls rules are same? Same rules
1) Can a foul occur with 0.0 on clock or should the clock realistically be at 0.1 or more? Yes it can. An exception to Rule 5-6-2 states "If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed"
2) Is it a rule that all players should be/are waved off FT line with 0.0 left on clock?Yes
3) If time is left on clock during any random shooting foul, 2:05 left in Q2 for example, or if 0.1 seconds left in game;
Is it a rule that Defensive team has to have 2 players in closest legal spot to basket during FT attempts?Yes

Game Situation Update:
FT shooter makes first 2 FTs and has 1 remaining to tie game.
Opposing coach calls Timeout

4) Is it a rule that TOs can be allowed/awarded with 0.0 on a end of quarter, half or game situation?Yes, however there cannot be successive time-outs granted.
5) Is it a rule that coaches (either team), are allowed to call a timeout between 2 technical FTs?Yes, this is permissible,
Different case in this situation but got me thinking, assuming they are able, but uncertain.

FT shooter misses final FT attempt and game over

All decisions seemed correct, root of the question/situation.
It's usually more comfortable to shoot FTs with players on lane as opposed to by yourself.
6) Looking to ascertain if there is a rule where Coach of player attempting FTs could have "requested" that players be on FT line?The rule requires the FT lane to be cleared in this situation

Thanks for any clarification.

 

[SWOHHSfan]

Great questions..... answered in red

Thanks.
So; if clock had 0.1 there would have had to be players on the line?
Could coach "request" to put 0.1 back on clock?
Not really a request, just knowledge that easier to shoot with players there and knowing foul "probably" happened with at least 0.1 left, and smart ploy to help his player.

 

[CasualFan24]

Thanks.
So; if clock had 0.1 there would have had to be players on the line?
Could coach "request" to put 0.1 back on clock?
Not really a request, just knowledge that easier to shoot with players there and knowing foul "probably" happened with at least 0.1 left, and smart ploy to help his player.

A few years ago officials would always put time back on the clock in these situations with the thought that if the foul occurred before the horn, that there should be time put back on the clock. Not sure if it was NFHS or OHSAA but officials are now directed to only put time back on the clock if they have definitive knowledge of how much time should be put back up. In other words, no more arbitrary .3 or guessing - unless you know for sure, just leave it at 0.00.

 

[AllSports12]

A few years ago officials would always put time back on the clock in these situations with the thought that if the foul occurred before the horn, that there should be time put back on the clock. Not sure if it was NFHS or OHSAA but officials are now directed to only put time back on the clock if they have definitive knowledge of how much time should be put back up. In other words, no more arbitrary .3 or guessing - unless you know for sure, just leave it at 0.00.

The last rule change related to placing time on the clock at the end of a period was prior to the 2006-2007 season. Before then there was an allowance (by rule) for the timer to have a one second lag time to react to a whistle blown or signal seen.

The current rule that replaced the "lag time" rule requires officials to have definite knowledge of the time that was on the clock when the ball became dead in order to put time back on the clock. It also has an exception for end of period timing matters that reads as follows....

"If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next, except when a correctable error, as in 2-10, is rectified. No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game"

 

[GoEaglesCvc]

My question is about rule 9-3-3 and how it changed this season. It is my understanding that you can now leave for an “unauthorized” reason then return and the touch the ball as long as you weren’t the first touch upon returning. I am assuming by “first touch” that doesn’t include the person holding the ball when you went out of bounds if they hold it for the entire duration of you being out of bounds and then returning. Is that the only difference from last season? I have watched a couple of games where coaches seemed confused by the new rule and were insisting that the player legally touched the ball because of the new rule.

 

[AllSports12]

My question is about rule 9-3-3 and how it changed this season. It is my understanding that you can now leave for an “unauthorized” reason then return and the touch the ball as long as you weren’t the first touch upon returning.

Correct....

The player (team, actually) is only penalized if upon return she/he is the first to touch the ball or the reason they left the floor was to avoid a violation. (example -- to avoid a three second call)

I am assuming by “first touch” that doesn’t include the person holding the ball when you went out of bounds if they hold it for the entire duration of you being out of bounds and then returning.

Not quite sure what you mean here.... if they are holding the ball when they went out of bounds, the ball would be dead immediately upon that violation.

Is that the only difference from last season? I have watched a couple of games where coaches seemed confused by the new rule and were insisting that the player legally touched the ball because of the new rule.

Coaches and officials alike are confused for some reason. I have a theory for the latter, but that's not for discussion in this forum.

 

[SWOHHSfan]

Click below for Video

Steal Inbounds

Is this legal?
Mens college game between East Stroudsburg and Kutztown, early Feb
Basket was allowed

 

[CasualFan24]

Click below for Video

Steal Inbounds

Is this legal?
Mens college game between East Stroudsburg and Kutztown, early Feb
Basket was allowed

Absolutely! If the inbounder reaches the ball across the line, it is fair game for a defender to grab it.

 

[AllSports12]

Rule 9-2-10 -- Violations and Penalties, Throw-In Povisions

The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

NOTE: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass. The opponent in this situation may legally touch or grasp the ball

There is also the possibility (had one at the end of last year) of a held ball when the thrower put the ball across the throw-in boundary line plane.

 

[SWOHHSfan]

Rule 9-2-10 -- Violations and Penalties, Throw-In Povisions

The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

NOTE: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass. The opponent in this situation may legally touch or grasp the ball

There is also the possibility (had one at the end of last year) of a held ball when the thrower put the ball across the throw-in boundary line plane.

Is basketball rule similar to football on OB?
if defender (in bounds) touches ball when inbounder places ball across sideline plane but is still touching the ball couldn’t it be a turnover on inbounder because he’s OB?
So couldn’t it be change of possession but can’t actually take it because of simultaneous touch?

 

[AllSports12]

Is basketball rule similar to football on OB?

No

if defender (in bounds) touches ball when inbounder places ball across sideline plane but is still touching the ball couldn’t it be a turnover on inbounder because he’s OB?

No. I posted the "Note" associated with the rule that makes this act legal if the thrower puts the ball across the throw-in plane.

So couldn’t it be change of possession but can’t actually take it because of simultaneous touch?

If that ball is across the throw-in plane, the defender could steal the ball or cause a held ball situation.

 

[GoEaglesCvc]

We had an interesting scenario (to me anyway lol) in a game that I recently watched. A team was winning by 2 with just a few seconds left. The trailing team inbounded a pass then missed a shot and the horn sounded signaling the end of the game. The losing team coach screamed at the ref demanding a foul call and was given a technical. While they were about to shake hands the officials had the winning team shoot the two technical shots. So, they won by 4 after they were both made. It is my understanding of the rule, that the technical free throws shouldn’t have been shot since the the horn had sounded and they had no bearing on who won or lost the game so I think the refs erred by giving them the shots. Just curious to see if that is correct or not.


Another question that I had watched occurred in a game with a running clock. The team had made their first FT and since the clock was running the clock expired and the horn sounded before the second FT was attempted. The refs let them shoot it. But, I would argue that since the game was over and it was a blowout that the FT should not have been attempted. At the very least, the lane should have been cleared which it wasn’t.

I realize both of these questions are picky. But, I am reading up on the rules and trying to learn it correctly.

 

[AllSports12]

We had an interesting scenario (to me anyway lol) in a game that I recently watched. A team was winning by 2 with just a few seconds left. The trailing team inbounded a pass then missed a shot and the horn sounded signaling the end of the game. The losing team coach screamed at the ref demanding a foul call and was given a technical. While they were about to shake hands the officials had the winning team shoot the two technical shots. So, they won by 4 after they were both made. It is my understanding of the rule, that the technical free throws shouldn’t have been shot since the the horn had sounded and they had no bearing on who won or lost the game so I think the refs erred by giving them the shots. Just curious to see if that is correct or not.

That is correct.

The officials were incorrect in allowing the shots to be attempted.

Another question that I had watched occurred in a game with a running clock. The team had made their first FT and since the clock was running the clock expired and the horn sounded before the second FT was attempted. The refs let them shoot it. But, I would argue that since the game was over and it was a blowout that the FT should not have been attempted. At the very least, the lane should have been cleared which it wasn’t.

I realize both of these questions are picky. But, I am reading up on the rules and trying to learn it correctly.

You are correct in this situation as well.

 

[14Red]

Gather Step is an NBA rule.

From the NCAA Women's Rule Book..... Rule 9-5 - Traveling (parts pertinent to this play are bolded)

Art. 4. A player who catches the ball while moving or ends a dribble may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both, in which case neither foot can be the pivot foot.

Art 5. After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. The pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.

She caught the ball with both feet off the court. Her right foot returned to the floor followed by her left foot. This established her right foot as the pivot foot. She legally picked that foot off the floor, but returned it to the floor before the ball was released on the try for goal.....

This was a travel

I thought it was a travel the first time I saw it. Generally, if your eyes say travel, it's a travel. That is for most people who've watched a decent amount of basketball.

 

[14Red]

I'll ask this in hopes of getting some officials to answer honestly. Those of you who officiate girls and boys HS basketball, do you officiate differently between girls and boys?