Update: Baseball is Back (As lockout drags on, poll indicates MLB could be charting path to irrelevance)

[14Red]

How many times must I explain to you?
- The owners have an asset (their franchise) valued over a billion dollars, in some cases multiple billions
- No games this year greatly devalues their asset
- No owners are willing to have their asset lose a ton of value

They want the season as badly as the players. They just want it on their terms. The owners gave more ground yesterday than in the last 3 months. Owners seem more eager to get this season started on time. Finally.

Bingo...

Yes, owners need games to keep their franchises valued, but they also have the backing capitol to sit it out. The players don't have that.

Of course the owners gave ground yesterday, it's negotiations. You have to wait it out as long as possible. Don't think there weren't alot, ALOT of players putting major pressure on their side to get things done. Many baseball players KNOW they are in a charmed profession but they have a short timeline to make money.

 

[brianwr112]

14Red…I know you’re the expert on this so figured I’d go to you. Now that the first two series of the season have been cancelled how long do you think it‘ll be before the players go broke and give in to everything? Remember the union, their agents, financial advisors and such have all been planning for this for years.

The sides seem to be even farther apart tonight. Players calling for Manfred to be fired and blasting the league for using their PR to make it out to be the players fault.

 

[wolves82]

Saw clips yesterday of Manfred practicing his golf swing between meeting sessions, and he was smiling/laughing a lot during the press conference. Is he a completely tone-deaf moron? Or some sort of evil genius negotiator? My money is on moron.

 

[Indiandad]

Saw clips yesterday of Manfred practicing his golf swing between meeting sessions, and he was smiling/laughing a lot during the press conference. Is he a completely tone-deaf moron? Or some sort of evil genius negotiator? My money is on moron.

The owners(mostly the owners) and players have decided to hit the gas and go over the cliff together.

 

[wolves82]

Looks like we may have baseball after all. It's negotiations folks.

14Red, with his finger right on the pulse, per usual...

 

[brianwr112]

Now it appears the move may be for the players to hold out through at least the first 22 games. The TV contracts guarantee 140 games so that’s the threshold for when it really starts hitting the owners pockets. Meanwhile the MLBPA will give each player checks on April 1 out of the money they’ve saved up through licensing deals. Not their normal pay but way more than the average person makes for the month.

 

[wolves82]

Now it appears the move may be for the players to hold out through at least the first 22 games. The TV contracts guarantee 140 games so that’s the threshold for when it really starts hitting the owners pockets. Meanwhile the MLBPA will give each player checks on April 1 out of the money they’ve saved up through licensing deals. Not their normal pay but way more than the average person makes for the month.

Thanks, I did not know that detail about the TV contracts, but I figured the networks had some protections built in. That 140 game clause right there is enough for the owners to not care about April games.

If this has devolved into a situation where the players want to extract a pound of flesh from the owners, we are in for a long lockout / holdout.

 

[Indiandad]

Thanks, I did not know that detail about the TV contracts, but I figured the networks had some protections built in. That 140 game clause right there is enough for the owners to not care about April games.

If this has devolved into a situation where the players want to extract a pound of flesh from the owners, we are in for a long lockout / holdout.

Now it appears the move may be for the players to hold out through at least the first 22 games. The TV contracts guarantee 140 games so that’s the threshold for when it really starts hitting the owners pockets. Meanwhile the MLBPA will give each player checks on April 1 out of the money they’ve saved up through licensing deals. Not their normal pay but way more than the average person makes for the month.

As I said on the last page... the players won't gain real leverage until June.

At that point I would demand full pay for missed games or continue sitting out till August.

 

[wolves82]

As I said on the last page... the players won't gain real leverage until June.

At that point I would demand full pay for missed games or continue sitting out till August.

Well, assuming the 140 games is key for TV contracts, the players' leverage date is not June. Game #23 is late April, normally.

LOL at "demand full pay for missed games". You act like the players have the hammer in these negotiations. 14Red thinks the owners have the hammer. I'll say it again - neither side has leverage, and this is a lose-lose proposition. And both sides seem intent on losing.

Frigging compromise already! Players want $725K minimum salary. Owners want $675K. If only there was some number halfway in between... Oh yeah, $700K. That was easy.

Sitting out till August basically kills the season. Fans will be long gone, football will be on people's minds, and the MLB will be on its deathbed. Explain to me how that helps the players.

 

[Auggie]

What I find interesting is that in this day and age the national writers are firmly in the players camp, must be so they get access for sound bites and quotes for their Twitter feeds. I will credit the agents for leveraging their contacts and get almost all of these guys/gals on board with some notables being ESPN's Jeff Passan and SI's Stephanie Apstein.

 

[brianwr112]

Well in the players defense…they proposed a deal as soon as the contract expired. The owners then waited THREE months to come back with a counter offer. In this day and age the media has people feeding them pretty much exactly what’s going on. When MLB tried to blame the players for discussions breaking down Tuesday both the players and media immediately said that wasn’t the case and mocked MLB for for finally using public relations….against the players instead of to promote them.

And Manfred’s a clown. If the owners fired him the players would sprint back to the negotiating table.

 

[JUSTGOPLAY]

Well in the players defense…they proposed a deal as soon as the contract expired. The owners then waited THREE months to come back with a counter offer. In this day and age the media has people feeding them pretty much exactly what’s going on. When MLB tried to blame the players for discussions breaking down Tuesday both the players and media immediately said that wasn’t the case and mocked MLB for for finally using public relations….against the players instead of to promote them.

And Manfred’s a clown. If the owners fired him the players would sprint back to the negotiating table.

Personally, I figured when the Reds ownership allowed Miley and Lorensen to sign with other teams without even trying to counter they knew the 2022 season was toast. I think the vast majority of owners, not in LA, NY, CHI, or BOS, have no intentions of conceding anything to the players. For me, summertime without Reds baseball ain't summertime. I'm not too sure how many folks that live in Reds country feel that way, or if they'll come back when these fools finally start playing games again. Soooooo, we've got all summer to follow what very well may be the world's worst major league soccer team. FCC, FCC, FCC......

 

[wolves82]

For me, summertime without Reds baseball ain't summertime. I'm not too sure how many folks that live in Reds country feel that way, or if they'll come back when these intellectuals finally start playing games again. Soooooo, we've got all summer to follow what very well may be the world's worst major league soccer team. FCC, FCC, FCC......

I'm in Columbus area but agree - gotta have baseball in the summer, especially Reds baseball.

Sorry about your soccer team, it is rancid. Our Columbus Crew should be in the hunt for 2 cups in the past 3 years! But I'd rather watch the Reds...

 

[wolves82]

MLBPA counter-offered yesterday. News baseball fans did not want. Still massive differences in the CBT (formerly luxury tax) levels and the pre-arbitration bonus pools.

"We were hoping to see movement in our direction to give us additional flexibility and get a deal done quickly," MLB spokesman Glen Caplin said. "The players' association chose to come back to us with a proposal that was worse than Monday night and was not designed to move the process forward. On some issues, they even went backwards. Simply put, we are deadlocked. We will try to figure out how they respond, but nothing in this proposal makes it easy."

MLB lockout: Why league's proposed minimum salary increase isn't as historic as it may seem

MLB is offering a record raise in terms of total dollars, but the percentages say something different

www.cbssports.com

 

[14Red]

Now it appears the move may be for the players to hold out through at least the first 22 games. The TV contracts guarantee 140 games so that’s the threshold for when it really starts hitting the owners pockets. Meanwhile the MLBPA will give each player checks on April 1 out of the money they’ve saved up through licensing deals. Not their normal pay but way more than the average person makes for the month.

when the guys stop getting paychecks, a deal will be done. Not sure it's a good strategy to bite the hand that feeds you, but the union mentality isn't the smartest one out there.

 

[14Red]

What I find interesting is that in this day and age the national writers are firmly in the players camp, must be so they get access for sound bites and quotes for their Twitter feeds. I will credit the agents for leveraging their contacts and get almost all of these guys/gals on board with some notables being ESPN's Jeff Passan and SI's Stephanie Apstein.

BINGO Auggie. The writers don't need sound bites from owners or management, they need to talk to players and coaches. Of course they are going to side with players. I just wish they'd use a little of their journalistic education and present both sides in the middle instead of being a cheerleader for the players. It's very disingenuous.

 

[14Red]

Well in the players defense…they proposed a deal as soon as the contract expired. The owners then waited THREE months to come back with a counter offer. In this day and age the media has people feeding them pretty much exactly what’s going on. When MLB tried to blame the players for discussions breaking down Tuesday both the players and media immediately said that wasn’t the case and mocked MLB for for finally using public relations….against the players instead of to promote them.

And Manfred’s a clown. If the owners fired him the players would sprint back to the negotiating table.

Heard last night that while the owners locked out the players now, the players were all but going to go on strike in August, so let's not throw this all on the players. It's just ridiculous that both sides can't come to an agreement.

 

[wolves82]

BINGO Auggie. The writers don't need sound bites from owners or management, they need to talk to players and coaches. Of course they are going to side with players. I just wish they'd use a little of their journalistic education and present both sides in the middle instead of being a cheerleader for the players. It's very disingenuous.

There are plenty of articles playing it down the middle, or showing the owners perspective. For example, the link I posted above. Read it and turn off the talk radio.

 

[wolves82]

when the guys stop getting paychecks, a deal will be done. Not sure it's a good strategy to bite the hand that feeds you, but the union mentality isn't the smartest one out there.

Stop over-simplifying this.

Players haven't gotten checks for several months now. In a profession where the league minimum is over half a million a year, you do not live pay check to paycheck like lots of regular people do. Plus the MLBPA has been telling players for years to save money for this, and they are sending checks to players right now from their war chest.

 

[14Red]

There are plenty of articles playing it down the middle, or showing the owners perspective. For example, the link I posted above. Read it and turn off the talk radio.

Thanks for posting, For me it's pretty simple, all young or new employees make less than the veterans. That's the way business works.

 

[14Red]

Stop over-simplifying this.

Players haven't gotten checks for several months now. In a profession where the league minimum is over half a million a year, you do not live pay check to paycheck like lots of regular people do. Plus the MLBPA has been telling players for years to save money for this, and they are sending checks to players right now from their war chest.

When you're compensating guys like this, the money goes away quickly.

but it's not so much the money you miss today, it's the money you are not making in the future. For a select group of players, THIS is their time to make money. They may had been looking forward to making their mark in spring training and they may never get another opportunity again.

It's really that simple.

 

[wolves82]

When you're compensating guys like this, the money goes away quickly.

but it's not so much the money you miss today, it's the money you are not making in the future. For a select group of players, THIS is their time to make money. They may had been looking forward to making their mark in spring training and they may never get another opportunity again.

It's really that simple.

Thanks for posting, For me it's pretty simple, all young or new employees make less than the veterans. That's the way business works.

That's three straight posts from you telling us how "simple" this is. You tell us things that are blatantly obvious, and unrelated to this new labor contract:
- veterans make more than new guys (Duh - really?)
- new players need to make their mark in spring training (Duh - really?)
- players waste their money and need a paycheck (speculation?)

Lots of smart people are trying to figure this out and it isn't getting done. Please tell us your simple solution to this labor deal. I'm sure you don;t have one. If you do, share it with us and with the MLB and MLBPA please, because we'd like to see baseball.

 

[brianwr112]

Love that 14Red thinks businesses don’t pay young/new employees more than veterans. Businesses pay for talent now. They could care less how long you’ve been there.

He also fails to realize these guys have people managing their money while they’re playing. They blow it when their careers are over and they fire the financial advisors for telling them no

 

[14Red]

Hey hey...here we go...baseball may be getting a deal done soon, AND with a full season.

 

[14Red]

Love that 14Red thinks businesses don’t pay young/new employees more than veterans. Businesses pay for talent now. They could care less how long you’ve been there.

He also fails to realize these guys have people managing their money while they’re playing. They blow it when their careers are over and they fire the financial advisors for telling them no

The top 5% of young talent gets paid, and it's normally signing bonuses. The rank and file work their way up through the minors. And here's the fallacy of your comment, once a guy is arbitration eligible, they get automatic increases in pay, and don't do anymore than they did before. It's the union way. Many 5-10 year vets price themselves out of baseball.

 

[wolves82]

Hey hey...here we go...baseball may be getting a deal done soon, AND with a full season.

I'm guessing you listened to talk radio nitwits again? I realize they had a full day of negotiating Tuesday, and got a little bit closer, but try reading everything...

MLB lockout news: League cancels more games after talks stall; April 14 now earliest possible Opening Day

Negotiations appeared to be progressing on Wednesday, but things fizzled and MLB called off more games

www.cbssports.com

 

[14Red]

I'm guessing you listened to talk radio nitwits again? I realize they had a full day of negotiating Tuesday, and got a little bit closer, but try reading everything...

MLB lockout news: League cancels more games after talks stall; April 14 now earliest possible Opening Day

Negotiations appeared to be progressing on Wednesday, but things fizzled and MLB called off more games

www.cbssports.com

We were already told last week that the first two weeks were cancelled. NOW if a deal is struck today, they can play a full season.
This is fact. And this is negotiations. The fact that both sides continue to talk and everything still is on the table, that's a good sign. Are you just negative all the time or just with some things? There will be baseball this summer, one way or another.

 

[wolves82]

We were already told last week that the first two weeks were cancelled. NOW if a deal is struck today, they can play a full season.
This is fact. And this is negotiations. The fact that both sides continue to talk and everything still is on the table, that's a good sign. Are you just negative all the time or just with some things? There will be baseball this summer, one way or another.

I simply read the articles and understand them, and talk about the facts in the articles realistically. I am hoping for the best but based on the articles I read (link above, plus "The Athletic"), that there is a slim to none chance they agree today.

You are the guy who posted like 2 weeks ago that everything was settled and baseball would be starting. You constantly post "this is simple". Which of us is being unrealistic?

 

[14Red]

I simply read the articles and understand them, and talk about the facts in the articles realistically. I am hoping for the best but based on the articles I read (link above, plus "The Athletic"), that there is a slim to none chance they agree today.

You are the guy who posted like 2 weeks ago that everything was settled and baseball would be starting. You constantly post "this is simple". Which of us is being unrealistic?

There's no need to get into the weeds on a message board. Good heavens supposedly they are far apart on the international draft. Obviously something important to THEM, but something we could care less about. When we get to the final, final day where they can't get a full season in, then it will be decided. At this point we have no idea when that is. We know they can do 7 inning DH's because that's been done. So I'd say you maybe looking at a drop dead date for a full season of mid April? I believe I saw a cut point where the TV contract cut money is if there are 140 games or less, so we may be looking at something like that. But we will have baseball, and as I said, we'll have college basketball and NBA basketball to carry us for 6 weeks or so, the NBA even further.

 

[brianwr112]

Second week of games cancelled. 14Red has this figured out though