Three teams drop out to avoid playing Marion Local in playoffs…

JCNThoughts said:
So if you don't have 600+ kids per grade you just don't matter now? Marion has 1/10 the grade size of D1 schools and regularly compete against schools 4 times their size and win.
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No, he's convinced that Marion Locals athletic dir is here and incognito. That's why he keeps harping about scheduling up, (which they already do D6/7 to D3) not realizing that fans have ZERO input.
 
TigerPaw said:
No, just any top 50 in D1 thru D4. Wapak sits at 49 this year. They were a good opponent and it is impressive enough that ML can beat them. We are just curious how they would do, because they ARE great, not trying to insult anyone.

Problem w/ transitive scores... I had a lesser opinion on D5 after Clarkson beat #1 Ironton then a week later Massillon beat them 45-6. But then a week later Ed only beat them 22-12. So maybe Ironton is better than I thought who knows, lol. Sometimes teams can have a good game or a bad game.
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Nothing wrong with being curious how they would do for sure. Problem is I don't believe any D4 school within the top 25 in the area would agree to play ML
 
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aLefty said:
Nothing wrong with being curious how they would do for sure. Problem is I don't believe any D4 school within the top 25 in the area would agree to play ML
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No reason to, it’s a lose lose. Could really hurt a playoff chance or more likely playoff seeding.

A D7 loss on the resume is the only thing the algorithm sees. Which is not great but the truth.

It’s a lose lose situation. If you lose to MSML the resume shows a loss to a D7 school and for a D3 or D4 team that’s very significant. If you beat MSML (goodluck) it takes a hit to the resume as well because again it’s “just a D7 school” although we know the case. That’s why the algorithm sucks.
 
Valley View (no.7), Northridge (no.19), Eaton (no.24) all would get walked so they would never agree
 
TigerPaw said:
No, just any top 50 in D1 thru D4. Wapak sits at 49 this year. They were a good opponent and it is impressive enough that ML can beat them. We are just curious how they would do, because they ARE great, not trying to insult anyone.

Problem w/ transitive scores... I had a lesser opinion on D5 after Clarkson beat #1 Ironton then a week later Massillon beat them 45-6. But then a week later Ed only beat them 22-12. So maybe Ironton is better than I thought who knows, lol. Sometimes teams can have a good game or a bad game.
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You're not, there's really only 2 in this thread that are very content with insulting anyone D3 and down that aren't TCC, Watterson or Glenville
 
Ansonia Football Enjoyer said:
No reason to, it’s a lose lose. Could really hurt a playoff chance or more likely playoff seeding.

A D7 loss on the resume is the only thing the algorithm sees. Which is not great but the truth.

It’s a lose lose situation. If you lose to MSML the resume shows a loss to a D7 school and for a D3 or D4 team that’s very significant. If you beat MSML (goodluck) it takes a hit to the resume as well because again it’s “just a D7 school” although we know the case. That’s why the algorithm sucks.
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That's the exact reason wapakoneta dropped ML. The coach wanted to ensure a home game 2nd round. They lost a lot of revenue because of it too. ML has a HUGE following and toledo st John's was at best a 1/4 of it.
 
TigerPaw said:
No, just any top 50 in D1 thru D4. Wapak sits at 49 this year. They were a good opponent and it is impressive enough that ML can beat them. We are just curious how they would do, because they ARE great, not trying to insult anyone.

Problem w/ transitive scores... I had a lesser opinion on D5 after Clarkson beat #1 Ironton then a week later Massillon beat them 45-6. But then a week later Ed only beat them 22-12. So maybe Ironton is better than I thought who knows, lol. Sometimes teams can have a good game or a bad game.
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Coldwater is 22 and Minster is 38.
Columbus Grove is 31 and should meet Marion at state if everything works out.
I think what you are asking for is not actually what you want. (A guess) High school football team is too unpredictable from year to year to consistently schedule good competitive games a year in advance. Simply playing a semi competitive team from the year before or getting a top 100 team in D4+ would probably be the most you can realistically you can ask. (Bellefontaine as example)
Wapakoneta actually dropped them because Marion beat them three years in a row. (It's not just Marion that has to agree)
Bishop Watterson was on the schedule before Wapak was and still played them close but lost. (Currently 9th)
 
Ansonia Football Enjoyer said:
No reason to, it’s a lose lose. Could really hurt a playoff chance or more likely playoff seeding.

A D7 loss on the resume is the only thing the algorithm sees. Which is not great but the truth.

It’s a lose lose situation. If you lose to MSML the resume shows a loss to a D7 school and for a D3 or D4 team that’s very significant. If you beat MSML (goodluck) it takes a hit to the resume as well because again it’s “just a D7 school” although we know the case. That’s why the algorithm sucks.
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True, the algorithm does have it's limitations. Hopefully having 16 teams make playoffs will help with a one game loss.
 
JCNThoughts said:
Coldwater is 22 and Minster is 38.
Columbus Grove is 31 and should meet Marion at state if everything works out.
I think what you are asking for is not actually what you want. (A guess) High school football team is too unpredictable from year to year to consistently schedule good competitive games a year in advance. Simply playing a semi competitive team from the year before or getting a top 100 team in D4+ would probably be the most you can realistically you can ask. (Bellefontaine as example)
Wapakoneta actually dropped them because Marion beat them three years in a row. (It's not just Marion that has to agree)
Bishop Watterson was on the schedule before Wapak was and still played them close but lost. (Currently 9th)
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Understood. But as has been mentioned many times, D6-D7 are very skewed in the ranking algorithms by their own admisssion. That is why I said D1-D4. Unless you actually believe ML is #2 in the state. And Coldwater is #22. Curiously Kirtland is #64. Like I said the ranking system gets weaker the more divisions you include and esp. down to D7, they start making less and less sense. That may be how the whole debate originally started when ML started appearing that high up.
 
DDoubleG said:
Toledo Central Catholic is 120 miles away from Marion local HS. Not sure that is the same general area. I don't believe anyone has said Marion Local would win Div 1, 2, 3 or 4. I believe it has been said is they would compete. There are numerous bad teams in all those divisions, just like there are bad teams in the smaller division and ML would beat those bad teams, plus COMPETE with some of the better teams. More than likely, not the top teams in those divisions but they would at least compete with 50-75% of them. Marion Local, and other teams in the MAC have played and beaten the teams in the WBL, which are Div. 3, 4 and 5 teams. The WBL has consistently been a decent league for years with numerous State Champions. A couple of years ago, Van Wert won D4 in 2020, Wapak, St. Marys and Celina have all had season they won several playoff games.
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TCC is a lot closer than the Northeast Ohio teams though. Marion Local is probably roughly equivalent to a mid tier team from an upper division if they had to play an equal schedule.
And the fact a team has had a season where they won multiple playoff games only has significance if the region actually has some good teams, but the D-III teams Marion Local has played were not good the years they played them and the teams they beat in the playoffs also were not good because everyone in the region was not good relative to their division and the legitimate contenders.
 
TigerPaw said:
Understood. But as has been mentioned many times, D6-D7 are very skewed in the ranking algorithms by their own admisssion. That is why I said D1-D4. Unless you actually believe ML is #2 in the state. And Coldwater is #22. Curiously Kirtland is #64. Like I said the ranking system gets weaker the more divisions you include and esp. down to D7, they start making less and less sense. That may be how the whole debate originally started when ML started appearing that high up.
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Yeah no one pays any attention to the fact that Drew Pasteur has readily admitted he himself doesn't personally agree with the rankings of his algorithms when it comes to the smaller school division teams such as Marion Local and Kirtland.
 
TigerPaw said:
Understood. But as has been mentioned many times, D6-D7 are very skewed in the ranking algorithms by their own admisssion. That is why I said D1-D4. Unless you actually believe ML is #2 in the state. And Coldwater is #22. Curiously Kirtland is #64. Like I said the ranking system gets weaker the more divisions you include and esp. down to D7, they start making less and less sense. That may be how the whole debate originally started when ML started appearing that high up.
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I think I understand what you're saying now.
Two major points here. 1:The D1-4 team has to agree and this could tank a teams ratings based on the current calculations if they lose to Marion. 2:Marion has consistently played D1-5 teams that do rank in the top 100 and either play them close or win outright.
I would agree this is a good thought but is simply unreasonable to ask every year because of the volatility of high school sports.
 
simkon said:
TCC is a lot closer than the Northeast Ohio teams though. Marion Local is probably roughly equivalent to a mid tier team from an upper division if they had to play an equal schedule.
And the fact a team has had a season where they won multiple playoff games only has significance if the region actually has some good teams, but the D-III teams Marion Local has played were not good the years they played them and the teams they beat in the playoffs also were not good because everyone in the region was not good relative to their division and the legitimate contenders.
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Wapakoneta was 9-3, 11-2, 10-3 the years Marion played them. (Ranked each year)
 
JCNThoughts said:
Wapakoneta was 9-3, 11-2, 10-3 the years Marion played them. (Ranked each year)
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darbydavidsonfan said:
Pretty sure they made a regional final one of those years too if my memory is correct. One of the final 8 left standing in the state in D3.
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Yes you are correct, however Wapakoneta was not good those years nor was any team from their region any of those seasons in question. The thing you have to understand is it means nothing to win a region. A bad team can win a region if all the other teams in the region are also bad. If Wapakoneta won the state championship one of those seasons, then I would concede.
 
simkon said:
Yes you are correct, however Wapakoneta was not good those years nor was any team from their region any of those seasons in question. The thing you have to understand is it means nothing to win a region. A bad team can win a region if all the other teams in the region are also bad. If Wapakoneta won the state championship one of those seasons, then I would concede.
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HAHAHAHA. You ask for a ranked team, no a good ranked team, no I don't like that ranked team.
 
simkon said:
TCC is a lot closer than the Northeast Ohio teams though. Marion Local is probably roughly equivalent to a mid tier team from an upper division if they had to play an equal schedule.
And the fact a team has had a season where they won multiple playoff games only has significance if the region actually has some good teams, but the D-III teams Marion Local has played were not good the years they played them and the teams they beat in the playoffs also were not good because everyone in the region was not good relative to their division and the legitimate contenders.
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JCNThoughts said:
HAHAHAHA. You ask for a ranked team, no a good ranked team, no I don't like that ranked team.
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Lmao! Now ML has to beat state championship teams 4 divisions up to be a good program.
 
MilkAthletesCorn said:
Lmao! Now ML has to beat state championship teams 4 divisions up to be a good program.
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Nope just a good team, Wapakoneta was not a good team any of those years with respect to their division. They would have been smoked by all the legitimate state title contenders in D-III.
 
simkon said:
Yes you are correct, however Wapakoneta was not good those years nor was any team from their region any of those seasons in question. The thing you have to understand is it means nothing to win a region. A bad team can win a region if all the other teams in the region are also bad. If Wapakoneta won the state championship one of those seasons, then I would concede.
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So, you have to win a state championship to be a good team? Regional Championships mean nothing? Jiminy, I hope you are in the minority.
 
simkon said:
I didn't ask for a ranked team, I never mentioned ranked. I just said play someone I consider good that particular season.
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Sorry, your request was to have Marion "play up". As it has been shown, Marion has played D3-4 teams since 2016.
Why would I take your ranking of a team??
 
JCNThoughts said:
I think I understand what you're saying now.
Two major points here. 1:The D1-4 team has to agree and this could tank a teams ratings based on the current calculations if they lose to Marion. 2:Marion has consistently played D1-5 teams that do rank in the top 100 and either play them close or win outright.
I would agree this is a good thought but is simply unreasonable to ask every year because of the volatility of high school sports.
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ML and Kirtland have such strong reps there would be little shame involved. Whether they won or got drilled. That’s weak sauce. As a D1 we have scheduled and lost before to excellent teams 2-3 divisions below us, embarrassing or not. Great teams. Not saying play Moeller or Hoban.
 
JCNThoughts said:
Sorry, your request was to have Marion "play up". As it has been shown, Marion has played D3-4 teams since 2016.
Why would I take your ranking of a team??
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Because he has rated himself, being from NE ohio (football capitol of the galaxy don't you know), as the sole knowledge of good teams. He doesn't even need to see them play, know their coach, or even having been to their town.
 
TigerPaw said:
ML and Kirtland have such strong reps there would be little shame involved. Whether they won or got drilled. That’s weak sauce. As a D1 we have scheduled and lost before to excellent teams 2-3 divisions below us, embarrassing or not. Great teams. Not saying play Moeller or Hoban.
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I completely agree with what you're saying. Computer points don't look favorably on losing to a D7 school though.
The biggest issue is still scheduling a year in advance. Playing a team that played well last year is not a guarantee they will have a winning season this year. Having a competitive week 1 just for the sake of the game would be nice but not expected every year.
 
JCNThoughts said:
Sorry, your request was to have Marion "play up". As it has been shown, Marion has played D3-4 teams since 2016.
Why would I take your ranking of a team??
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That is impressive but IF the debate is about where to rank them overall, need more evidence. I realize for some that is not the debate. Seems to be 3-4 conversations going on at the same time.
 
MilkAthletesCorn said:
Because he has rated himself, being from NE ohio (football capitol of the galaxy don't you know), as the sole knowledge of good teams. He doesn't even need to see them play, know their coach, or even having been to their town.
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I have been all over the state of Ohio, I have been to NE, NW, SE, SW, central Ohio, and quite a bit of Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania and the Southeast corner of Michigan near just this year.
 
TigerPaw said:
That is impressive but IF the debate is about where to rank them overall, need more evidence. I realize for some that is not the debate. Seems to be 3-4 conversations going on at the same time.
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Here's Drew Pasteur's top 50 D3-4 teams this year. (4X the size of Marion)
Coldwater played #71 and #87 with a healthy margin of victory on both. I'm not sure if a pure judgement call without watching a significant amount of games is acceptable to say one team is under or over performing.
Marion might play better competition than you are giving them credit for.
 

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simkon said:
I have been all over the state of Ohio, I have been to NE, NW, SE, SW, central Ohio, and quite a bit of Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania and the Southeast corner of Michigan near just this year.
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Have you watched Marion play any significant games? State last year or possibly Minster or Coldwater this year?
 
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