The Cleveland Browns to the Burbs?????

Not having a dome is ridiculous. We're past the point of trying to play "old fashioned football".. Any extreme weather will are a postponement. We'll never see a Bills 8-0 game again.

But not having a dome immediately limits what and how many events the stadium can host.

The biggest mistake going into 99 was a giant outdoor stadium. 10 games, a concert or two, and maybe a rare high school or college game. Such a waste of resources. The only reason to ever build the Browns another stadium or seriously renovate the current stadium is to bring in more major events. NCAA March madness events, Super Bowl, and use it year round as an open floor plan convention facility.

Spending billions or even hundreds of millions for a handful of events a year is a total waste and should fail.
 
Not having a dome is ridiculous. We're past the point of trying to play "old fashioned football".. Any extreme weather will are a postponement. We'll never see a Bills 8-0 game again.

But not having a dome immediately limits what and how many events the stadium can host.

The biggest mistake going into 99 was a giant outdoor stadium. 10 games, a concert or two, and maybe a rare high school or college game. Such a waste of resources. The only reason to ever build the Browns another stadium or seriously renovate the current stadium is to bring in more major events. NCAA March madness events, Super Bowl, and use it year round as an open floor plan convention facility.

Spending billions or even hundreds of millions for a handful of events a year is a total waste and should fail.
There wasn’t enough time or money to build a stadium with a roof. The city wanted the Browns back as soon as possible. That was basically the trade off
 
There wasn’t enough time or money to build a stadium with a roof. The city wanted the Browns back as soon as possible. That was basically the trade off

I remember the situation very well. The dome was nixed for two reasons: cost and tradition. The cost would have been significantly more than for an open-air stadium, which immediately turned a lot of dome support sour. The second was the attitude of the majority of fans ( the traditionalists) who thought the weather would give the Browns a significant advantage, that football was made to be played on real grass during any weather, and that , despite the fact that the facility would remain a white elephant, a dome would "sissify" football in Cleveland.
 
Luckily since 1999, they've figured out how to have both indoor facilities and natural grass. The players prefer natural grass as well. I think if the NFLPA could, they'd nix all artificial turf.

Getting the stadium off the waterfront would be good for the area as well. A bit of lost potential there today that probably wasn't much thought about 25 years ago.

If they coud push the stadium out a bit an use it an excuse to extend RTA out, that would probably get more parties interested.
 
If the city still owns the rights to the name "Browns" I would be open to the franchise moving again and Cleveland getting another expansion team. Time for a reboot.
 
If the city still owns the rights to the name "Browns" I would be open to the franchise moving again and Cleveland getting another expansion team. Time for a reboot.


Yea, the reboot from Art Modell 20+ years ago worked so well. Could end up with another terrible owner or somehow, an even worse one. I hear Daniel Snyder will soon have about $6 billion to spend.
 
No city has ever squandered a waterfront like the City of Cleveland. There's plenty of land on the waterfront to build new stadium and develop into viable and valuable properties, but the only entity will a greater record of futility than the Browns is the City of Cleveland.
 
Yea, the reboot from Art Modell 20+ years ago worked so well. Could end up with another terrible owner or somehow, an even worse one. I hear Daniel Snyder will soon have about $6 billion to spend.
It obviously hasn't, which is why I made the suggestion, obviously in jest. Ohio Steelers fans... bet you have a story about how your great aunt got her dog in Pittsburg and you've been a life long fan ever since.
 
It obviously hasn't, which is why I made the suggestion, obviously in jest. Ohio Steelers fans... bet you have a story about how your great aunt got her dog in Pittsburg and you've been a life long fan ever since.

Nope. Always lived in Ohio and only been to Pittsburgh maybe 10 times. As a kid, the Steelers played a similar type of football as I was taught & would play in high school (West Jefferson): Ran out of the I Formation, played a 3-4 / 5-2 defense and the mentality that football meant more to us than other communities. Lived through the Steeler qb changes after Bradshaw: Cliff Stout, Mark Malone, David Woodley, Bubby Brister, Neil O’Donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart & Tommy Maddox until the Steelers got Roethlisberger. Still went to a Super Bowl between Bradshaw & Roethlisberger.

By choosing & sticking with the Steelers, I like to tell Browns fans I made a better life decision as a child than they did! I enjoy Sunday afternoon.
 
Nope. Always lived in Ohio and only been to Pittsburgh maybe 10 times. As a kid, the Steelers played a similar type of football as I was taught & would play in high school (West Jefferson): Ran out of the I Formation, played a 3-4 / 5-2 defense and the mentality that football meant more to us than other communities. Lived through the Steeler qb changes after Bradshaw: Cliff Stout, Mark Malone, David Woodley, Bubby Brister, Neil O’Donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart & Tommy Maddox until the Steelers got Roethlisberger. Still went to a Super Bowl between Bradshaw & Roethlisberger.

By choosing & sticking with the Steelers, I like to tell Browns fans I made a better life decision as a child than they did! I enjoy Sunday afternoon.

There it is.
 
Nope. Always lived in Ohio and only been to Pittsburgh maybe 10 times. As a kid, the Steelers played a similar type of football as I was taught & would play in high school (West Jefferson): Ran out of the I Formation, played a 3-4 / 5-2 defense and the mentality that football meant more to us than other communities. Lived through the Steeler qb changes after Bradshaw: Cliff Stout, Mark Malone, David Woodley, Bubby Brister, Neil O’Donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart & Tommy Maddox until the Steelers got Roethlisberger. Still went to a Super Bowl between Bradshaw & Roethlisberger.

By choosing & sticking with the Steelers, I like to tell Browns fans I made a better life decision as a child than they did! I enjoy Sunday afternoon.
Makes sense. West Jeff is equivalent to western PA on the "hick" meter.

Buckeyes never played a 3-4 or 5-2, tell us why you like them. Answer: Front-runner, same reason you chose the Stillers.
 
Makes sense. West Jeff is equivalent to western PA on the "hick" meter.

Buckeyes never played a 3-4 or 5-2, tell us why you like them. Answer: Front-runner, same reason you chose the Stillers.

Correct, OSU never played a 3-4/5-2 defense but when you had the Dline OSU had in the 80’s it didn’t matter what D one ran - they were terrible. Remember the Sullivan brothers? The days of ole Earl Bruce - good guy but well, the record speaks for itself.

WJ may be a bit on the rough side or on the ‘hick Western PA meter’ but that’s ok, I would never apologize for it. WJ is what it is, a football town.
 
Makes sense. West Jeff is equivalent to western PA on the "hick" meter.

Buckeyes never played a 3-4 or 5-2, tell us why you like them. Answer: Front-runner, same reason you chose the Stillers.
I agree, but he's likely going to "enlighten" us and let us know that Woody ran a 5-2.
 
Lima Ohio boy here. 1970's, I'm 8 yrs old .......you pick your teams at that age. My dad liked Reds, Browns and Raiders. Steel Curtain and Big Red Machine going in the 70s. So I'm a Steelers and Reds fan. Fav players were always Franco Harris and Jack Lambert. I always say, other than the 80's (two Bengal super bowls) its been pretty easy to be a Steelers fan. Reds, not so much. But still fans of both to this day.

Season tix since 1992, Cowhers first year.
 
So, what does any of this have to do with the new stadium? Or has that topic been exhausted? Just curious.
Until more news leaks out, not much can be said about it.

Either they rebuild on site, either a full tear down or major rehab during offseason, or they move elsewhere around Cuyahoga County or a surrounding county.

Honestly, there's no where else in Cleveland to really build a stadium that's better than the current location. Every location is going to have issues. If the area north of the stadium, the airport, and land further east could be developed into something useful it would be the ideal location.

Only place in Cuyahoga County that could support them would be Berea by the airport. Easy access via freeway, but nothing there other than the team facilities and warehouses. Further out? Twinsburg? Mentor? Lorain? Is there really a good option?

Then biggest problem with a rebuild on location is that the team would be gone for a year or two at minimum while you do the work. Where? Columbus? Ohio Stadium has the capacity but Lower.com Field has the owner's pocketbook in mind. Canton? Well, if they're renting it they can get the Cleveland fans to drive down a lot easier than to Columbus. But, if you're going to travel, why wouldn't you get either the biggest stadium possible for tickets OR the stadium you run and collect all the money from it?
 
Lima Ohio boy here. 1970's, I'm 8 yrs old .......you pick your teams at that age. My dad liked Reds, Browns and Raiders. Steel Curtain and Big Red Machine going in the 70s. So I'm a Steelers and Reds fan. Fav players were always Franco Harris and Jack Lambert. I always say, other than the 80's (two Bengal super bowls) its been pretty easy to be a Steelers fan. Reds, not so much. But still fans of both to this day.

Season tix since 1992, Cowhers first year.
Die-hard fan. You have a nice little drive to and from.
 
Die-hard fan. You have a nice little drive to and from.
I don't live in Lima any longer. Live in Columbus. Leave at 8am from Columbus. Get to Pitt in just under 3 hrs. Games over by 4:30, get to car, get out, get home by 8:30pm. I got it down, where to park and how to get out quick. We never cross over to park on the stadium side of the river. Always walk through Battery Park and walk over the bridge to get to the stadium. If i take someone new we park near the incline and take the ferry over to the stadium. Until it gets too cold out........... then the ferry can be brutal.
 
HOPEFULLY,
Recently the City of Cleveland rejected land offerings for the Cleveland Browns and a new Stadium. It seems that the Cleveland Browns might be joining the ranks of the Chicago Bears as they move to Arlington Heights with there new Stadium.
So the big question is what Cleveland Suburb would get the Browns???
Is it just money issues, rather than location issues? The Braves moved TWENTY FIVE MILES NORTH to Marietta, because of the latter.
 
Governemnts should not be giving a dime to sports teams, much less teams that are trying to replace perfectly adequate facilities that aren't even 25 years old. Complete insanity. Let them leave.
Mr "Re-Imagine Policing" Bibb - the clown that supported a ballot amendment for a citizens' police review board that began with the autonomy to pay itself more than City Council makes - apparently agrees with you.
 
Not having a dome is ridiculous. We're past the point of trying to play "old fashioned football".. Any extreme weather will are a postponement. We'll never see a Bills 8-0 game again.

But not having a dome immediately limits what and how many events the stadium can host.

The biggest mistake going into 99 was a giant outdoor stadium. 10 games, a concert or two, and maybe a rare high school or college game. Such a waste of resources. The only reason to ever build the Browns another stadium or seriously renovate the current stadium is to bring in more major events. NCAA March madness events, Super Bowl, and use it year round as an open floor plan convention facility.

Spending billions or even hundreds of millions for a handful of events a year is a total waste and should fail.
Tell that to the people in NE, Buffalo, NY, Green Bay, Denver....why isn't Pittsburgh demanding a dome?
 
I remember the situation very well. The dome was nixed for two reasons: cost and tradition. The cost would have been significantly more than for an open-air stadium, which immediately turned a lot of dome support sour. The second was the attitude of the majority of fans ( the traditionalists) who thought the weather would give the Browns a significant advantage, that football was made to be played on real grass during any weather, and that , despite the fact that the facility would remain a white elephant, a dome would "sissify" football in Cleveland.
All of which is still relevant.
 
Tell that to the people in NE, Buffalo, NY, Green Bay, Denver....why isn't Pittsburgh demanding a dome?

NE - Don't need a new stadium yet. They also exist 30 miles from Boston where there isn't a huge need for the venue to host big events when it's far from the city center. Wait until Gillette needs major reconstruction or a rebuild, and see where and what they build to replace it.

Buffalo - They're going to dig another hole next to the old one. Again, by not building downtown, there's no real push for a dome now. Nothing needs to be in Orchard Park that requires a dome. The downtown stadium was going to have a dome. But the fans were really against losing their tailgating. And you know how Buffalonians love tailgating.

Green Bay - Really? They're not replacing Lambeau Field any time soon. The current stadium can't handle a roof even if the team wanted to build one. Secondly, no need in a city such as Green Bay to need an 80,000-seat indoor venue for non-football games. Their 9,877 seat indoor venue barely gets used for events. You think there's a big need for an indoor 80,000-seat venue for a city of 106k?

Denver - Not due for replacement. Was built in 2001, but built nice. Also built as part of a building boom in the city that saw the new arena, baseball, and football venues. Denver very well might want a dome for the next stadium to attract the large venue events a city like Denver would want. Right now, it's not on the table. Big issue is where would it be built. Probably somewhere near the current venue. Or out in Aurora or Commerce City or the Airport area.

Pittsburgh - Pittsburgh won't be getting a new venue any time soon. With the development between PNC and Heinz/Acrisure, there's no where to put it now. Unlike before just dumping into into the old parking lot of Three Rivers Stadium. That and the fact that the team barely was able to build a 56,000 seat venue that was just recently expanded to 68,000 when they added seats to the south endzone. The land around there is near impossible to build a structure to support an open-air roof a dome would need. Major concerts go out to Star Lake Pavilion (or whatever it's called this month) or one of the two arenas in town. And again, unlike Cleveland, Pittsburgh isn't due for a new venue.

CLEVELAND, however, is due, because they build a $200 million stadium in 1999 that lacked any sort of amenity that would draw people in. They also built the structure in general incredibly cheap to get it ready by 1999. They didn't have escalators for years and if you remember attending games in the 500 level, those walks were not fun up the ramps. Even the two renovations the Haslems have done have not been kind to the venue and, like Jacobs Field, was overbuilt for the demand that would ensue.

CBS was built with 72,000 seats because old Municipal Stadium has 72,000 unobstructed seats in its 84,000 seat football configuration. It also grossly underbuilt the lower level and club/loge levels, and prioritized that L-shaped upper west/north section that became a waste.

And, as for wind, you're saying to spend a few billion to build an outdoor venue so that we make a few extra field goals a year? While fans paying thousands to attend NOT attend unless the team is winning because they'd rather not sit in the lakefront wind to watch a loser?

That is an argument for an outdoor venue. And sure, unlimited funds, let's do it. In reality, selling Cleveland, or Cuyahoga County in general, on building a venue that is only getting 8-9 regular season games a year, if we're lucky a couple playoff games ever decade, and 1-2 preseason games witnessed by dozens of fans, and the rare Kenny Chesney concert, collegiate football or hockey game, a St. Ignatius home game every so often, and maybe a Monster Jam rally. Sure, let's do it. If you're paying.

Build a dome, and you're getting at least one Super Bowl during the stadium's life, maybe a B1G or MAC title game, NCAA basketball pods, other NCAA sports tournaments, more high school and college games, and much easier time attracting the concerts that outgrow Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse.

Is it ideal? No. But if the city/county is paying for any of it, the city/county needs to benefit from it more than building another rich man's play thing.
 
Luckily since 1999, they've figured out how to have both indoor facilities and natural grass. The players prefer natural grass as well. I think if the NFLPA could, they'd nix all artificial turf.

Getting the stadium off the waterfront would be good for the area as well. A bit of lost potential there today that probably wasn't much thought about 25 years ago.

If they coud push the stadium out a bit a use it an excuse to extend RTA out, that would probably get more parties interested.
Mayor Justin “ let’s reinvent policing” Boob is having a three hour event today on Mall C, mimicking some elements of democracy, as the boy mayor represents asking the community what they would like to do with the lakefront. Seems all in the world like trying to soften the blow that the Browns are leaving the city proper. I think it’s all over but the announcement.

You have some experience in urban planning, if I recall correctly. I assume the only reason that there’s been no talk about a JEDD with Cleveland and BrookPark is the fact that doing so would make the exit from downtown even easier. It would look much like Art Modell, taking Al Lerners jet to Baltimore actually. It seems like a great idea to me, though, for BrookPark to give peak policing and EMS of this stadium to Cleveland. Cleveland fire is already headquartered at the airport if I’m not mistaken.

Do you expect to see something like that ? I guess maybe if there’s going to be a significant retail and residential ad in the whole complex, maybe increasing the sizes of both departments will be justified. It just seems to me like it’s an incredible boom/ebb on both a half a year and a weekly basis for a city Brookpark size.
 
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Mayor Justin “ let’s reinvent policing” Boob is having a three hour event today on Mall C, mimicking some elements of democracy, as the boy mayor represents asking the community what they would like to do with the lakefront. Seems all in the world like trying to soften the blow that the Browns are leaving the city proper. I think it’s all over but the announcement.

You have some experience in urban planning, if I recall correctly. I assume the only reason that there’s been no talk about a JEDD with Cleveland and BrookPark is the fact that doing so would make the exit from downtown even easier. It would look much like Art Modell, taking Al Lerners jet to Baltimore actually. It seems like a great idea to me, though, for BrookPark to give policing and EMS of this stadium to Cleveland. Cleveland fire is already headquartered at the airport if I’m not mistaken.

Do you expect to see something like that ? I guess maybe if there’s going to be a significant retail and residential ad in the whole complex, maybe increasing the sizes of both departments will be justified. It just seems to me like it’s an incredible boom/ebb on both a half a year and a weekly basis for a city Brookpark size.

A JEDD would be bit outside the scope of urban planning, more a matter of the services and the municipality involved. Urban planning and civil engineering would work on new construction, infrastructure, etc.

The history of stadiums leading to some kind of boom for retail and residential is murky at best. I’d say it’s a marketing ploy by those who desire to be involved in the stadium construction more than a realized reality. For the Brook Park location, they would have to contend with sound pollution from the airport. On the plus, it wouldn’t be too difficult to connect the train from the airport to the new stadium area.

I do think stadiums are best being downtown or downtown adjacent. The foot traffic and everything are great for the businesses around and not much additional needs to be done infrastructure wise aside from parking expansion, which is typically an easy sell. Cleveland would do itself a favor by not playing hardball here. Yes get them off the lakefront but you don’t need to let them go to Parma.
 
A JEDD would be bit outside the scope of urban planning, more a matter of the services and the municipality involved. Urban planning and civil engineering would work on new construction, infrastructure, etc.

The history of stadiums leading to some kind of boom for retail and residential is murky at best. I’d say it’s a marketing ploy by those who desire to be involved in the stadium construction more than a realized reality. For the Brook Park location, they would have to contend with sound pollution from the airport. On the plus, it wouldn’t be too difficult to connect the train from the airport to the new stadium area.

I do think stadiums are best being downtown or downtown adjacent. The foot traffic and everything are great for the businesses around and not much additional needs to be done infrastructure wise aside from parking expansion, which is typically an easy sell. Cleveland would do itself a favor by not playing hardball here. Yes get them off the lakefront but you don’t need to let them go to Parma.
Well, thank the Democrats. The Ford Cleveland Engine Plant, while old, was casting modern ICE capably. What better to do with a dirty old industrial site than to leave a casting plant and foundry there, right ? Go EV!.....save the planet...

If there was not that site's 170 acres available next to the airport, with a rapid line straight to Tower City, they might be staying downtown and moving to the south side of Orange Ave, from Black Oxide through the container yard and concrete crusher, to the Post Office docks, as I had hoped. There's already a big park and ride rapid station on the north side of Brookpark Rd at the north end of the cheap-azs engine plant brownfield site, first for the construction workers, later on game day.... then going east, the tittiebars... too easy.

The redevelopment of Tower City, soon funded by the City, (where the Rapid originates, and then heads east to Green Rd in Shaker) will be well-served by either new stadium location, and Jimmah's hopes to surround a stadium in BP with retail still looked good in May, but if all the Democrat transitory inflation is going to finally "implode", maybe the City's remodel deal on the table until 8/15 or so starts looking better ?

Orange Ave above the river is still the best site, though. In town, all connected and mostly underground for the big three sports, leading to the new Tower City re-development.
 
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