The Amish

IVCguy

Well-known member
I initially said that I would not claim guru status. I do a full week of practice in my field and don't want to do it in my spare time. Lol.

However, people are curious about the Amish on one hand and have almost no good information about them on the other. Television shows like "Breaking Amish" and "Amish Mafia" are so fake that it would take me a decade to unravel all of it.

But I've lived with and studied these people for 30 years. There are few things, if any, I can't answer.

So, if you have a question about them, shoot and I will try to give you a sound answer.
 
 
Did you see Peter Santenello's YouTube series on Holmes County? Here is the 1st of a series on Ohio Amish:

 
I saw his "7 Takeaways" video and thought it was very good.

I will check this one out when I can. I'm in the middle of a honey-do list today that 10 husbands couldn't get done!
 
I saw his "7 Takeaways" video and thought it was very good.

I will check this one out when I can. I'm in the middle of a honey-do list today that 10 husbands couldn't get done!
I will warn you it is a slow boil and you will probably know about most of the points they discuss but well done. He does do an auction and a dinner with a round table; does a good job of showing the various view points that come through and that it is not a mono culture just like Arabs in Dearborn or Latinos in Miami have different takes within each community.
 
I will warn you it is a slow boil and you will probably know about most of the points they discuss but well done. He does do an auction and a dinner with a round table; does a good job of showing the various view points that come through and that it is not a mono culture just like Arabs in Dearborn or Latinos in Miami have different takes within each community.
The diversity within the Amish and that they are on a continuum with varying beliefs and standards is one of the things that confuses people because they see the plain clothes and head coverings and it all looks like the same thing.

And it is the same in some respects, but very different in others. Thus, the confusion.
 
I saw some here in Hilton Head today. I was really surprised because I didn't think they were this far South. Didn't think they would be able to travel this far. And really didn't think they would want to spend a vacation here.
 
I saw some here in Hilton Head today. I was really surprised because I didn't think they were this far South. Didn't think they would be able to travel this far. And really didn't think they would want to spend a vacation here.
They love traveling!
 
My friend is ex-amish. It's interesting how most of the groups are becoming a little more modern because of how many of their kids are leaving.

He was shunned when he left but over time they've mostly stopped shunning. Since they're trying to get them back. Only odd thing is he can't eat at the table when he visits his father. For the group he was from, Battery power is okay mostly, but they use a lot of solar and generator power to charge batteries. No direct power from generators or solar.

As a teen, he had a boom box with cds that he had hidden. Though it was confiscated when his dad found it. But he bought another one. Many Amish own cars covertly and keep them parked elsewhere. Many teenagers also will get rides into town and then change clothes to "fit in" but he said it is always obvious when he sees Amish kids in town that are dressed like English. It's like an uncanny valley thing. Something just doesn't look right.

He lives up by Andover where there's a lot of Amish and ex Amish. He's let a lot of his family stay with him after they've left before going out on their own. Many of them move to Missouri if they're still into farming. A lot go to NYC and the Carolinas. Especially if they're doing construction. Lots of ex-Amish contractors building homes and will hire ex-amish.

He left because he felt the elders were hypocrites and were never consistent. One cousin had a successful business and was told he was making too much money and they wanted him to close his business. So he left. But they were okay with themselves running businesses that would be considered successful.

Mostly though he agreed with the general idea that the lifestyle was purposefully meant to make you appreciate life a little more. Nothing was easy but nothing was really difficult.

If you had to go to the hospital, the community paid your hospital bills in cash. Collectively. But the community decided whether you needed to go to a hospital or were able to be taken care of at home.

His group allowed gas powered tools as long as they weren't ridden, and they didn't automate things. A push mower was fine. But not one that was self propelled. You had to push it.

One thing he didn't like was that owning cars are forbidden but paying someone to drive you somewhere was perfectly okay even if it was to the point you basically had a dedicated driver every day taking Amish into town for things. And yes they did know they were called Yoder Toters.

And when he was younger Amish Paradise was one of the favorite songs among the youth. They all knew it and they all had the CD with their contraband radios.

Aside from him, my one aunt is ex-amish but she left as a little kid with her parents but she's still close with most of her extended family. Atlantic, Pennsylvania has a ton of Amish not far from where I grew up. Many of her family are from around there. Been to their houses on occasion as a kid but never recently. I remember we weren't allowed inside the house but we all ate outside on big wooden picnic tables for whatever thing we were there for. My other uncle's best friend was ex-amish. Forget when he left but he was into construction.

A lot of people know Yoder as an Amish name but also Miller, Byler, Shrock, Hostetler, and Hershberger. At least in my area that I'm familiar with. My friend is a Yoder, my aunt was Shrock, and my uncle's friend was a Miller.
 
My friend is ex-amish. It's interesting how most of the groups are becoming a little more modern because of how many of their kids are leaving.

He was shunned when he left but over time they've mostly stopped shunning. Since they're trying to get them back. Only odd thing is he can't eat at the table when he visits his father. For the group he was from, Battery power is okay mostly, but they use a lot of solar and generator power to charge batteries. No direct power from generators or solar.

As a teen, he had a boom box with cds that he had hidden. Though it was confiscated when his dad found it. But he bought another one. Many Amish own cars covertly and keep them parked elsewhere. Many teenagers also will get rides into town and then change clothes to "fit in" but he said it is always obvious when he sees Amish kids in town that are dressed like English. It's like an uncanny valley thing. Something just doesn't look right.

He lives up by Andover where there's a lot of Amish and ex Amish. He's let a lot of his family stay with him after they've left before going out on their own. Many of them move to Missouri if they're still into farming. A lot go to NYC and the Carolinas. Especially if they're doing construction. Lots of ex-Amish contractors building homes and will hire ex-amish.

He left because he felt the elders were hypocrites and were never consistent. One cousin had a successful business and was told he was making too much money and they wanted him to close his business. So he left. But they were okay with themselves running businesses that would be considered successful.

Mostly though he agreed with the general idea that the lifestyle was purposefully meant to make you appreciate life a little more. Nothing was easy but nothing was really difficult.

If you had to go to the hospital, the community paid your hospital bills in cash. Collectively. But the community decided whether you needed to go to a hospital or were able to be taken care of at home.

His group allowed gas powered tools as long as they weren't ridden, and they didn't automate things. A push mower was fine. But not one that was self propelled. You had to push it.

One thing he didn't like was that owning cars are forbidden but paying someone to drive you somewhere was perfectly okay even if it was to the point you basically had a dedicated driver every day taking Amish into town for things. And yes they did know they were called Yoder Toters.

And when he was younger Amish Paradise was one of the favorite songs among the youth. They all knew it and they all had the CD with their contraband radios.

Aside from him, my one aunt is ex-amish but she left as a little kid with her parents but she's still close with most of her extended family. Atlantic, Pennsylvania has a ton of Amish not far from where I grew up. Many of her family are from around there. Been to their houses on occasion as a kid but never recently. I remember we weren't allowed inside the house but we all ate outside on big wooden picnic tables for whatever thing we were there for. My other uncle's best friend was ex-amish. Forget when he left but he was into construction.

A lot of people know Yoder as an Amish name but also Miller, Byler, Shrock, Hostetler, and Hershberger. At least in my area that I'm familiar with. My friend is a Yoder, my aunt was Shrock, and my uncle's friend was a Miller.
I may let you be the guru!

I know the Holmes Co situation best, but there are differences in other communities within Ohio and other states. Holmes Co is unique in that it probably has almost every group on the continuum.

You raise a slew of issues. I will take one at a time.
 
It's interesting how most of the groups are becoming a little more modern because of how many of their kids are leaving.
The Amish are not trying to ever advance in terms of technology. They are trying to stay several steps behind the rest of the world. I imagine that when we are buzzing around in the air like George Jetson, some sects will drive cars. They want there to be a visual and distinct difference between them and "worldly" people.

Another example would be dairy farms. 30 years ago the Amish milked by hand. I'd have a 30 yo farmer with 4 kids who was milking 8 cows. I would wonder how they were making it. Financially, they weren't. So they began to allow mechanical milking systems, which allow them to milk dozens of cows. This would be an example of how they adapt to realities.

The internet and cell phones have impacted the community. The Swartzentrubers (the strictest sect) do not allow any access. The New Order allows computers with internet access for business only, they can only have flip phones to carry, but they aren't supposed to text. The Old Order, which is stricter than the NO on most things, is actually more lax. Many of them have smart phones. It was very strange the first time an OO person showed me a funny video on their phone! Lol.

This change has really helped me. 30 years ago if you needed to get a quick message to an Amish person, you would have to drive to their home and give it to them in person. They eventually incorporated answering machines, then the NO moved their landlines close to the house (or in), and now almost everyone carries a cell phone. It is much easier to communicate and contact them now.

But this has changed how connected they are to the world. I remember in 2001 I would run into Amish in Oct that hadn't heard about 9/11! They now are just as aware of what is happening in the country and world as the rest of us. They often don't understand it and ask what it means. I have to tell them I don't understand a lot of it either. Lol.

There are sociology departments at the College of Wooster and in PA that do nothing but study the Amish. I've been interviewed by their research teams. The latest data is that about 75% of Amish kids end up getting baptized and joining their parents' church - and that has been consistent over decades. How one is raised is very powerful. There is a comfort and security that comes with living as an adult as you were raised. But about 1/4 of Amish find reasons to go a different way.
 
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Interesting how conservative sects have certain aspects that run through them. Women must be covered head to toe:
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In general, how are relations between Amish and Mennonite communities? I have a rough idea of the difference, just curious if they ever interact.
 
I'm convinced the horse & buggie has been replaced with battery powered bicycles. Amish Highway in Holmes County is littered with them.
 
Actually I see these when I drive through Geauga County more than buggies:

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Can't they peddle a bike? Also what's with going barefoot? Stopped by a roadside produce stand and all the women folk were barefooting it. Kind of gross.
 
Actually I see these when I drive through Geauga County more than buggies:

View attachment 44577

Can't they peddle a bike? Also what's with going barefoot? Stopped by a roadside produce stand and all the women folk were barefooting it. Kind of gross.
Yes, lots of "low" Amish in Geauga. They work hard to make sure they aren't participating in the conveniences other Amish have.
 
Interesting how conservative sects have certain aspects that run through them. Women must be covered head to toe:
View attachment 44567

View attachment 44568

View attachment 44569
All Abrahamic religions - but you see it with Sikhs and others as well.

As for the women, my wife looks at the contraptions they have to wear and says, "A man definitely made that rule." Lol.
 
In general, how are relations between Amish and Mennonite communities? I have a rough idea of the difference, just curious if they ever interact.
It's not like there is fighting in the streets. These are closely related sects. Often when someone leaves the Amish, they join a Mennonite church. So, its hard to find an Amish family that doesn't have several Mennonite adult children.

But there is a quiet judgmentalism that is palpable. The Amish look at the Mennonites as "too lax and wordly" and the Mennonites see the Amish as too legalistic, following man-made rules, and being a mechanical religion of following rules rather than experiencing true spirituality.
 
I'm convinced the horse & buggie has been replaced with battery powered bicycles. Amish Highway in Holmes County is littered with them.
The electric bikes have become a problem. Some of those things go 40 mph and arent as easy to pass as you expect when you see a bicycle ahead. You will also get a gaggle of young people riding 2-3 abreast and blocking the road. We are going to have to educate them on the single file and that slower moving vehicles stay on the right edge of the road rules.

E bikes are only among the Old Order. New Order kids ride pedal 10-20 speeds and and the lower Amish condemn all bikes except push scooters.

As the speed has increased with E bikes, they have essentially turned into motorcycles, not bikes.
 
Actually I see these when I drive through Geauga County more than buggies:

View attachment 44577

Can't they peddle a bike? Also what's with going barefoot? Stopped by a roadside produce stand and all the women folk were barefooting it. Kind of gross.
I went barefoot as a kid most of the time outside. And I was born in the early 80s. Most Amish kids, according to my friend, only wore shoes to important things.

As for pedaling, that's the automation thing. Not make it easy but not let it be hard. Those push bikes really get some speed to them once they get going.

As for ivc talking about those leaving, that may be true overall, but different groups see different levels of abandonment. Sometimes it can be just because one group of elders are really strict while they see another group nearby they interact with be very lenient and they can't just jump groups they way most other Christians can move from church to church.

I know the Amish in Homes County has almost turned being Amish into a type of tourist attraction the same at the Lancaster group. Making considerable amount of money off of just being Amish. The Amish around me are much more reclusive and interact very little with English

My friend told me the difference between Mennonite and Amish but I honestly forget. They basically formed separately. I know one big rule of Amish is they're anabaptists. Children aren't baptized until they join the church as a conscious decision and not because their parents did it as babies.

Interesting thing is Rumshpringa. His group never formalized it as acceptable. The parents and elders simple knew it happened and didn't condone it. Seen more as misbehaving than as allowed. No different than teenagers rebelling against their parents in any other group.

Some may formalize it but to him it wasn't normal. He did have a cousin on the one show in NYC (breaking Amish I think) and thought it was horrible how it was portrayed.

One quirk that took him awhile to tell me was Amish dating as teens was far different. Guy invites the girl to his house. She helps with dinner like she was at home. And after dinner they go to their room and spends the night. It's never said what they're allowed to do but every kid was aware they were not going to be interrupted. Only rule was if she got pregnant you got married. Lots of marriages in his group happened from this. My friend went on many dates like that as a teenager where they'd have a room to themselves as opposed to sharing a room with siblings. Everyone knew what was happening but no one ever said a word about it because it's just what you did.

He also only finished 7th grade. His teacher was almost always a girl who had yet to have children in her late teens or early 20s and was barely qualified to teach the basics. He got his diploma after he left and was shocked how much was taught wrong or just not taught at all. Like one girl insisted it was called SIN-A-TIE. Guess which city she was talking about? He knew it was wrong but she insisted.
 
I'm convinced the horse & buggie has been replaced with battery powered bicycles. Amish Highway in Holmes County is littered with them.
E-Bikes are everywhere in that area. Can't say that I blame them because of how hilly it is. I love pedaling, but I'd probably add an eBike to my fleet if I lived there. FWIW, I live in the county NE of there. It's much flatter north of Rt. 30. I once rode to Millersburg all the way on Rt. 241 (took a different route back). That was brutal: almost no shoulder, plenty of semis, the hills, and most dangerous of all, the buggy ruts. Put your skinny road bike wheel in 1 of those ruts, and you're almost guaranteed to hit the deck. Rt. 62 is the much better way to go thanks to the extra wide shoulder. Otherwise, work WSW to Fredericksburg and ride the Holmes County Trail.
 
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The electric bikes have become a problem. Some of those things go 40 mph and arent as easy to pass as you expect when you see a bicycle ahead. You will also get a gaggle of young people riding 2-3 abreast and blocking the road. We are going to have to educate them on the single file and that slower moving vehicles stay on the right edge of the road rules.

E bikes are only among the Old Order. New Order kids ride pedal 10-20 speeds and and the lower Amish condemn all bikes except push scooters.

As the speed has increased with E bikes, they have essentially turned into motorcycles, not bikes.
If an eBike is going 40, it's either going downhill (plenty of hills where one could hit 40+ while descending in Holmes County), it's actually a moped, or it's been souped up in some other way. Class 1 eBikes provide motor assistance up to 20mph while pedaling, Class 2 provides assistance up to 20mph but also includes throttle assistance while not pedaling. Class 3 eBikes provide assistance up to 28 mph while pedaling. Once hitting the speed for each respective class, the motor cuts out, and any additional power is provided by pedaling alone.
 
He was shunned when he left but over time they've mostly stopped shunning. Since they're trying to get them back. Only odd thing is he can't eat at the table when he visits his father. For the group he was from, Battery power is okay mostly, but they use a lot of solar and generator power to charge batteries. No direct power from generators or solar.
Shunning has changed in recent years among the O and N Orders. It has not changed with the Swartzies and lower groups.

Getting baptized and joining Amish church is not a casual commitment. They view it as a vow, not only to God, but to the church you are joining. So, if you join and then leave, they take Paul's instructions to the church in I Corinthians about wayward, immoral believers and not eating or doing business with such a person and they apply it to someone who decides they don't want to be Amish any longer. This shunning is called being put in the "ban". Other Amish, even those from other churches in some cases, will not speak, eat, or do business with someone put in the ban.

You are correct that the ban isn't what it used to be. In the old days, someone would leave the Old or New Order Amish church, get put in the ban, attend a Mennonite church for a few years while the Amish shunned them, then their pastor would go to the bishop, declare that the banned person was a member in good standing, and ask that the ban be lifted - with mixed results. It depended on the cantankerousness and stubbornness of that particular bishop. Part of the reason for the change is that Mennonite and other pastors started to bluntly instruct Amish bishops that they were misapplying Paul's instructions. Shunning was meant for those members of the church who were living in gross, public sin, not for those who decided to go to a different church. Amish bishops seemed to respond to that criticism over the years and modify when they put someone in the ban and under what circumstances they would take it off. So, today, there is less of it and it is much easier to get it called off.

In the NO and OO, if you do not ever join the church, and you leave, there is no ban. They do not assume any authority over you if you are not a member of the church. If you are a member of the church and leave, they will put you in the ban usually for a while, but if you join another Christian church, they will take it off on request. If you leave and are living in open sin, they will leave the ban on. The goal is to essentially pressure such a one to return to the faith, fellowship of the church, and live within moral boundaries.

In the lower groups, the church does assume authority over young non-members. If a kid leaves their family to live "English", the bishop will instruct the parents to not allow the child back into the house, even for a brief visit, for fear that their "bad example" will lead their brothers and sisters astray. Many a young person has had their father slam the door in their face when they tried to visit their family. The parents have to obey the bishop in this, otherwise, they could be put in the ban. It's very coercive and, therefore, cultish.

In the higher groups, if a former member is in the ban, after a certain amount of time, the bishop would often allow visits, but the banned would have to eat in another room and not with the family.
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Some New, New Order Amish have electricity from the grid, but they have a bunch of rules about what kind of appliances they can have. The OO and NO cannot have grid electricity, but there are various allowances for certain businesses, depending on the type of Amish church. But as a general rule, the OO and NO use solar systems, generators, and batteries for certain limited appliances like pumps, lights, sewing machines, etc. The lower Amish forbid these things.
 
If an eBike is going 40, it's either going downhill (plenty of hills where one could hit 40+ while descending in Holmes County), it's actually a moped, or it's been souped up in some other way. Class 1 eBikes provide motor assistance up to 20mph while pedaling, Class 2 provides assistance up to 20mph but also includes throttle assistance while not pedaling. Class 3 eBikes provide assistance up to 28 mph while pedaling. Once hitting the speed for each respective class, the motor cuts out, and any additional power is provided by pedaling alone.
Yep - downhill. And 40 may be a slight exaggeration. 35 maybe? Regardless, the point is that they are harder to pass because the speed is higher. You can generally coast by a regular bicycle. These things make you punch it! Lol.
 
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I have dealt with a number of Amish. We have hired an Amish girl for years as a house cleaner, first an older sister and now a younger one. Very good workers . Also had an Amish company who put a new roof on our home. Lots of Amish in the Trumbull- Geauga area. The “scooters” you see where you stand on and push off with one foot are popular for transportation other than horse and buggy, which are still on roads around here, and E-scooters are gaining use. I also knew an Amish girl who left the sect, started her own housecleaning company and eventually married an English. She was extremely sexually active at one time. She was shunned. Amish love to fish at Mosquito Lake and are active consumers at the mall. They also dine out often at restaurants I frequent. Other than dressing their way and avoiding owning motorized transportation, they are integrated well here. They often hold dinners for the public to earn money for healthcare for their members and their own schools. We like to buy baked goods and homemade noodles from the Amish who normally cook very well. Good gentle folks.
 
Yep - downhill. And 40 may be a slight exaggeration. 35 maybe? Regardless, the point is that they are harder to pass because the speed is higher. You can generally coast by a regular bicycle. These things make you punch it! Lol.
40 would not be an exaggeration for many of the hills both on and off the beaten path in that area, and those eBikes are HEAVY, so they'll accelerate longer down the hill (and be a bear to pedal uphill sans motor assist). First time I ever rode in that area, I wanted to cry, and I had barely breached the perimeter of "Amish Country." I'd finish one big climb, only to find the next looking bigger and longer. Rinse and repeat until I found my way back to Mt. Eaton and headed NE back to my shanty.

I've hit 56 on a hill in Central Tusc. County with not a lot of bodyweight and poor aerodynamics. I would envision the more common problem in Holmes County is the motor assist on eBikes creates more speed going up the hills and makes the riders more difficult to pass quickly - even worse if the motorist can't see what's coming on the other side of the road. The other factor is how closely the person rides to the edge line. Law says "as far to the right as can safely be practiced," but that will vary by rider and conditions. No doubt motorists want to get past me, and I'm happier when they're in front of me than behind. However, I cringe when they cross a double yellow with oncoming traffic bearing down on all of us.

I once had a cop in my town stop me and tell me that I was riding too far into the lane and that I should be riding as close to the curb as I can, nevermind all the debris, cracked pavement, sunken sewer grates, and sewer grates pointed in wrong direction that could trap a wheel. No motorists would dare stick their wheels over there, so why should I? I e-mailed the police chief, cited the law, and told him that the officer's misinterpretation of the law creates a more dangerous situation for me and other riders.
 
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I went barefoot as a kid most of the time outside. And I was born in the early 80s. Most Amish kids, according to my friend, only wore shoes to important things.

As for pedaling, that's the automation thing. Not make it easy but not let it be hard. Those push bikes really get some speed to them once they get going.

As for ivc talking about those leaving, that may be true overall, but different groups see different levels of abandonment. Sometimes it can be just because one group of elders are really strict while they see another group nearby they interact with be very lenient and they can't just jump groups they way most other Christians can move from church to church.

I know the Amish in Homes County has almost turned being Amish into a type of tourist attraction the same at the Lancaster group. Making considerable amount of money off of just being Amish. The Amish around me are much more reclusive and interact very little with English

My friend told me the difference between Mennonite and Amish but I honestly forget. They basically formed separately. I know one big rule of Amish is they're anabaptists. Children aren't baptized until they join the church as a conscious decision and not because their parents did it as babies.

Interesting thing is Rumshpringa. His group never formalized it as acceptable. The parents and elders simple knew it happened and didn't condone it. Seen more as misbehaving than as allowed. No different than teenagers rebelling against their parents in any other group.

Some may formalize it but to him it wasn't normal. He did have a cousin on the one show in NYC (breaking Amish I think) and thought it was horrible how it was portrayed.

One quirk that took him awhile to tell me was Amish dating as teens was far different. Guy invites the girl to his house. She helps with dinner like she was at home. And after dinner they go to their room and spends the night. It's never said what they're allowed to do but every kid was aware they were not going to be interrupted. Only rule was if she got pregnant you got married. Lots of marriages in his group happened from this. My friend went on many dates like that as a teenager where they'd have a room to themselves as opposed to sharing a room with siblings. Everyone knew what was happening but no one ever said a word about it because it's just what you did.

He also only finished 7th grade. His teacher was almost always a girl who had yet to have children in her late teens or early 20s and was barely qualified to teach the basics. He got his diploma after he left and was shocked how much was taught wrong or just not taught at all. Like one girl insisted it was called SIN-A-TIE. Guess which city she was talking about? He knew it was wrong but she insisted.
You rarely see Amish kids with shoes on during the summer. Their feet get tough as nails to the point where they can run across gravel easily. This was a way back in the old days of saving money on shoes. The funny thing is that when, especially the women, get middle aged their arches start collapsing, they get plantar fasciitis, heel spurs, and general foot pain, and when you tell them they have to start wearing shoes with good arch and heel support, even in the house, they look at you like you are telling them to eat a turd.

I wouldn't say the Holmes Co Amish have embraced the tourism. They mostly view it as an irritant. But they understand the benefits of it. They tend to look down on any Amish who are directly making money off of just being Amish. That's kinda taboo, but there are a few who do it. However, they make and sell furniture and other goods that are marketed and retailed to tourists - usually by a non-Amish store. They seem very comfortable with that indirect arrangement. They interact more just because they are used to the stares and questions. Human beings tend to avoid people and things they aren't sure about. Because the contact is more frequent here with the English than anywhere else in the world, they are just more comfortable with it. The lower groups would be more reclusive and less friendly as a general rule, but if you ever stop at a Swartzy produce market, there will usually be an Amish woman there that is very gabby.

Both Amish and Mennonites are ana-baptists (re-baptizers). The ana-baptists grew out of the reformation and the general term applied to anyone who held to "believers baptism" and would re-baptize those who had been baptized as infants because they do not recognize child baptism as legitimate. The modern day Baptists and many other denominations are/were ana-baptists.

The Mennonites and Amish are parallel sects and, essentially, cousins. Menno Simons was the founder of the one sect in the 1500's. Jacob Ammann founded the Amish about 100 years later. In the late 1800's it would have been difficult to tell who was Amish and who was Mennonite by just watching them. As the 20th century developed, the Mennonites embraced modern technology and dress a little more than the Amish and the differences became more obvious. Both would ascribe to non-resistance pacifism, Armenianist theology, and emphasize the virtues of humility and separation from the world. The Mennos are also on a continuum from very strict on one end and very biblically and ideologically liberal on the other. The more conservative Mennos will have "ordununs" (spelling is uncertain) which are the list of rules that govern the church. They have this in common with the Amish. The only difference is the type and extent of the rules and how restrictive they are. The more liberal Menno churches have done away with this. If a family that belongs to a liberal Menno church is living next door to you, they will look exactly like everyone else in the neighborhood. If they belong to a more conservative Menno church, you will see significant differences in terms of dress for men and women and some degree of "plainness" in what they show outwardly - and the women will wear coverings and limited to no make-up. You will never see them in public with their hair down, for instance. So, there are some significant differences between Amish and Mennonites, both in substance and appearance, but there are also a ton of common traits and beliefs comparing the stricter Mennos to their Amish cousins.

Rumshpringa is a "running around" period for OO Amish. The NO does not allow it and more OO families and churches are forbidding or discouraging it. But the basic idea is that joining church needs to be a free will choice and so it is tolerated for OO kids (17+ years old) to experience what the world has to offer - and they do everything every other teenager is doing or is being pressured to you. The boys get cars, go to ballgames, dress English and get modern haircuts, go to parties, drink, sometimes do drugs, have sex, and all that. In theory, after they have that out of their system, they are expected to settle down, join church, get married, have kids, and be a good church member. And that does happen a lot. But also what happens is alcoholism, drug addiction, out-of-wedlock pregnancy, and all that. The low groups version is very wild. Those kids don't know anything about the world - rules, laws, customs. They often are way out of control and get in a lot of trouble. Very often, they end up in jail.

Bundling is a very old tradition. A mother would sew her daughter's beau into a sack with just his head sticking out and they would sleep together. The Amish call this "bed-dating". It is not practiced here in the OO or NO. It died out many years ago. But the low Amish keep their traditions - except they dispense with the sack and sewing. The boyfriend comes over, everyone goes to bed, he gets in bed with his girlfriend and (wink, wink) they just sleep. Many a Swartzy girl has found herself with a baby and no husband from this tradition.

Amish children go to school through the 8th grade.
 
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