The Amish

[IVCguy]

I have dealt with a number of Amish. We have hired an Amish girl for years as a house cleaner, first an older sister and now a younger one. Very good workers . Also had an Amish company who put a new roof on our home. Lots of Amish in the Trumbull- Geauga area. The “scooters” you see where you stand on and push off with one foot are popular for transportation other than horse and buggy, which are still on roads around here, and E-scooters are gaining use. I also knew an Amish girl who left the sect, started her own housecleaning company and eventually married an English. She was extremely sexually active at one time. She was shunned. Amish love to fish at Mosquito Lake and are active consumers at the mall. They also dine out often at restaurants I frequent. Other than dressing their way and avoiding owning motorized transportation, they are integrated well here. They often hold dinners for the public to earn money for healthcare for their members and their own schools. We like to buy baked goods and homemade noodles from the Amish who normally cook very well. Good gentle folks.

One thing you realize pretty early on with Amish people is that they are people. They aren't necessarily better or worse than any other people you have gotten to know. They are ignorant of some things and experts in other things. They have the same emotions, struggles, and sins as the rest of us. But, they do avoid some of the problems of the modern world by the way they live and believe. It's easy to point out the irrationality of some of what they do, the flaws, etc., but there is a lot of good found in slower, quieter, plainer, simpler living. My problem is I have to go fast, be loud, and be complex.

 

[IVCguy]

As a teen, he had a boom box with cds that he had hidden. Though it was confiscated when his dad found it. But he bought another one. Many Amish own cars covertly and keep them parked elsewhere. Many teenagers also will get rides into town and then change clothes to "fit in" but he said it is always obvious when he sees Amish kids in town that are dressed like English. It's like an uncanny valley thing. Something just doesn't look right.

We have one OO family in our neighborhood and the rest are NO. The OO kids/young adults are very familiar with modern music. The NO ones mostly have no clue. I had to haul my OO neighbor's dau (she is about 25) to a store the other day. I had my playlist from YouTube playing on the stereo from my phone. It was a mix of country (mostly George Strait), some gospel, and some old classic rock like The Eagles and Boston. She knew all of it. Was even singing along. Lol.

When the OO kids are doing their running around, they will dress Amish during the day and change when they go out. If their families don't approve, they will leave the house in Amish clothes and go to a public restroom and change. Years ago I used to see Amish girls out and about and couldn't figure out who they were - until I realized that they looked different with their hair down, in make-up, and in jeans. Lol.

I had this OO friend that did mason work and I went to talk to him about an addition on my house. His 16-17 year old dau came bouncing out of the house as this big pick-up pulled up. She had on the shortest and tightest little pair of red shorts and a white t shirt tied up with her belly button showing and plenty of cleavage. Her little buns were sticking out of the bottom of her shorts. I asked my friend who she was and he said that was his dau going on a date with her boyfriend. I wouldn't have let my dau walk around the house looking like that, let alone go on a date! It's just one of those things that confuse you. There is this ridiculous strictness that coexists with extreme permissiveness. It basically represents a temporary period of parents looking the other way for a while.

 

[IVCguy]

I saw some here in Hilton Head today. I was really surprised because I didn't think they were this far South. Didn't think they would be able to travel this far. And really didn't think they would want to spend a vacation here.

They LOVE to travel. Half of this county winters in Sarasota/Pinecraft, Florida. The rules are not quite as enforced down there. They will travel extensive distances for health care. Hopeless cancer cases end up in Mexico for weeks or months - before they come home to die (minus 10-20 grand). They will go as far as S Dakota for natural care like chiropractic - even though there are a slew of good chiros right near their home. The travel and vacation seems to be the main impetus.

The New Order fly. The Old Order are forbidden except for special circumstances. So the OO will use trains, busses, or hired drivers to go long distances. They go on cruises and all kinds of things.

Once we went with our girls HS hoops team to a summer showcase in Chicago. We were downtown on the Miracle Mile, waiting to cross an 8 lane avenue. On the other side were 50 Amish who had evacuated a bus. Some guy behind me said, "Oh no. They followed us." I doubled over with laughter.

 

[nupanther]

Here's a question that I've been wondering for years
What if an Amish man has a hard time growing facial hair? Myself, it takes several weeks just to get stubble. How can a newlywed Amish man ' show off' his married man status if he honestly has a difficult time growing a beard?

 

[IVCguy]

Here's a question that I've been wondering for years
What if an Amish man has a hard time growing facial hair? Myself, it takes several weeks just to get stubble. How can a newlywed Amish man ' show off' his married man status if he honestly has a difficult time growing a beard?

Great question!

This Amish guy from Indiana married my neighbor's daughter and they now live next to me. He is an interesting guy on so many levels. He might end up being the first Amish billionaire. Lol. Super intelligent, loves politics, and is just a different kind of dude. He is about 35 and has a few sprouts growing on his chin. In that case, you go with what God gave you. I think he would prefer to shave it, but he is required to maintain it even tho it is sparse.

Young, unmarried men grow beards too. It is required when they join church. Some people associate it with getting married because, often, getting married and joining church happens at the same - but not always.

The church requires beard and sideburns without a mustache. Mustaches are considered worldly. So, they have to shave their upper lip.

 

[IVCguy]

I was reminded of something I had almost forgotten yesterday when I made an faux pas at a store near Mt Eaton. I don't have a lot of contact with low Amish. There was a 6 month old in a dress crawling around on the floor, smiling at me. I jokingly told her sister that she needs to teach her to not be so friendly with strangers. The sister informed me that the baby was a boy. The OO and NO don't do that, but the low Amish keep their boys in dresses while in cloth diapers. I suppose this tradition has the practical purpose of being able to have easy access for diaper changes, but it does make it really hard to distinguish between boys and girls - which is odd because they make sure there is never any doubt about the gender of a person after that point. But this is an example of a tradition that the low Amish hold on to, if for no other reason, they do not want to get more "worldly" like the higher Amish.

 

[D4fan]

I was reminded of something I had almost forgotten yesterday when I made an faux pas at a store near Mt Eaton. I don't have a lot of contact with low Amish. There was a 6 month old in a dress crawling around on the floor, smiling at me. I jokingly told her sister that she needs to teach her to not be so friendly with strangers. The sister informed me that the baby was a boy. The OO and NO don't do that, but the low Amish keep their boys in dresses while in cloth diapers. I suppose this tradition has the practical purpose of being able to have easy access for diaper changes, but it does make it really hard to distinguish between boys and girls - which is odd because they make sure there is never any doubt about the gender of a person after that point. But this is an example of a tradition that the low Amish hold on to, if for no other reason, they do not want to get more "worldly" like the higher Amish.

Do the low Amish only speak German?

We have one OO family in our neighborhood and the rest are NO. The OO kids/young adults are very familiar with modern music. The NO ones mostly have no clue. I had to haul my OO neighbor's dau (she is about 25) to a store the other day. I had my playlist from YouTube playing on the stereo from my phone. It was a mix of country (mostly George Strait), some gospel, and some old classic rock like The Eagles and Boston. She knew all of it. Was even singing along. Lol.

When the OO kids are doing their running around, they will dress Amish during the day and change when they go out. If their families don't approve, they will leave the house in Amish clothes and go to a public restroom and change. Years ago I used to see Amish girls out and about and couldn't figure out who they were - until I realized that they looked different with their hair down, in make-up, and in jeans. Lol.

I had this OO friend that did mason work and I went to talk to him about an addition on my house. His 16-17 year old dau came bouncing out of the house as this big pick-up pulled up. She had on the shortest and tightest little pair of red shorts and a white t shirt tied up with her belly button showing and plenty of cleavage. Her little buns were sticking out of the bottom of her shorts. I asked my friend who she was and he said that was his dau going on a date with her boyfriend. I wouldn't have let my dau walk around the house looking like that, let alone go on a date! It's just one of those things that confuse you. There is this ridiculous strictness that coexists with extreme permissiveness. It basically represents a temporary period of parents looking the other way for a while.

I have shared before I am ex Amish. Your story of the girl dating reminded me of how many people assume all Amish are the same. Once, a rather playboy of a man shared with me he had been dating this certain attractive Amish girl. I always thought she was modest and well disciplined. He shared with me her only rule was she could not take her prayer covering off. So, according to him, they had wild passionate sex, never took that covering off, but sure damaged a bunch of them.


One area you have not mentioned yet is the non swearing aspect of many anabaptist sects. "Let your yes be yes and your no be no". Swearing creates a double standard, the intent of non swearing is to always be truthful.

 

[Sykotyk]

I was reminded of something I had almost forgotten yesterday when I made an faux pas at a store near Mt Eaton. I don't have a lot of contact with low Amish. There was a 6 month old in a dress crawling around on the floor, smiling at me. I jokingly told her sister that she needs to teach her to not be so friendly with strangers. The sister informed me that the baby was a boy. The OO and NO don't do that, but the low Amish keep their boys in dresses while in cloth diapers. I suppose this tradition has the practical purpose of being able to have easy access for diaper changes, but it does make it really hard to distinguish between boys and girls - which is odd because they make sure there is never any doubt about the gender of a person after that point. But this is an example of a tradition that the low Amish hold on to, if for no other reason, they do not want to get more "worldly" like the higher Amish.

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/04/08/breeching-boys-2/

This was just the style a long time ago. And it was practical. In the days before indoor plumbing, electric washers and dryers, babies and young children wore 'dresses' so that they could be easily changed and with cloth diapers not have problems with pants. After all, clothing was one of the more expensive things to own, so you didn't have a lot of garments to wear. Especially for young children.

But then again, even men rarely wore pants except for certain activities until the 1700s-1800s. At least pants as we know them. Tunics, robes, and then later bloomers, knickers, etc that were more 'open'. Again, practicality and cost. Clothing was expensive and most people didn't have the money or ability to make their own cloth, just mend the fabric they could afford.

Do the low Amish only speak German?

I have shared before I am ex Amish. Your story of the girl dating reminded me of how many people assume all Amish are the same. Once, a rather playboy of a man shared with me he had been dating this certain attractive Amish girl. I always thought she was modest and well disciplined. He shared with me her only rule was she could not take her prayer covering off. So, according to him, they had wild passionate sex, never took that covering off, but sure damaged a bunch of them.


One area you have not mentioned yet is the non swearing aspect of many anabaptist sects. "Let your yes be yes and your no be no". Swearing creates a double standard, the intent of non swearing is to always be truthful.

I know my friend's group was very much against swearing oaths or signing contracts. Transactions were 'pay on demand'. Nothing was promised for the future, etc. Not after the fact, etc. At least IN the community. Dealing with outsiders, not sure. But I know it was one of their big things about being 'outside' the general government. His group was also against voting or dealing with politics. They kept to themselves except when laws were being passed that were potentially against their lifestyle (such as things like the draft, social security/medicare, etc) where they were able to lobby to be exempt or have provisions (conscientious objector, having your group's own privately handled old age care/finances setup by your religion/healthcare) etc. I know his group, when they did need healthcare for anything (his mom had cancer, for instance), the group paid cash for the care to the hospital or doctors. No insurance, no medicare/medicaid, etc. But they collected the money from everyone to pay for it. So, in a way it was socialized medicine. Just through their religion to be away from medicare, etc.



Going back to the Amish women thing... I know my friend said some of the Amish women are the freakiest you'll ever find. Which can be a good thing or a bad thing. They really didn't have a lot of boundaries they weren't willing to cross.

 

[ogealbhain]

Do the low Amish only speak German?

I have shared before I am ex Amish. Your story of the girl dating reminded me of how many people assume all Amish are the same. Once, a rather playboy of a man shared with me he had been dating this certain attractive Amish girl. I always thought she was modest and well disciplined. He shared with me her only rule was she could not take her prayer covering off. So, according to him, they had wild passionate sex, never took that covering off, but sure damaged a bunch of them.


One area you have not mentioned yet is the non swearing aspect of many anabaptist sects. "Let your yes be yes and your no be no". Swearing creates a double standard, the intent of non swearing is to always be truthful.

What are the different "sects" of Amish? Low Amish? What others? Thanks!

 

[IVCguy]

Do the low Amish only speak German?

No. They speak Pennsylvania Dutch and English.

The difference is that many of the low don't speak English much or often and so it can be difficult with some of them to have a detailed conversation. The ones that "work out" and have more contact with English people will be fluent in English, but those who are more isolated on farms will be much less able to express themselves in English.

My dau worked in a big trauma center emergency dept in Roanoke, VA. They had a Swartzentruber family come in. A 10 yo boy had fallen out of a hay loft and fractured his knee cap. The doctor was from the UK and had trouble understanding southern accents, let alone the broken English of these Amish. He finally got frustrated and yelled, "Is there anyone in this bloody hospital who speaks these people's language?!" One of the nurses said that she thought my dau spoke it. He sent for her.

She shows up not knowing what she was wanted for and the doc told her. She learned Dutch from growing up with the neighbor kids, but she hadn't spoken it much in 5 years. She was afraid she wouldn't be able to bring it back. The doc asked her to translate a question. She said she had to really think how to phrase because many Dutch phrases are backward from English. She got it out, they answered and she understood everything they were saying, and in a minute, they were easily conversing in Dutch.

Anyway, language is a funny thing. You can lose it if you don't use it and there are many people who understand PA Dutch well, but don't speak it well.

 

[IVCguy]

One area you have not mentioned yet is the non swearing aspect of many anabaptist sects. "Let your yes be yes and your no be no". Swearing creates a double standard, the intent of non swearing is to always be truthful.

Yes, this is true. As a general rule, you won't hear oaths, pledges, or a sworn attestation coming out of them. They really do avoid those for the reason of the precise scripture you quoted. You hear non-Christian English people say all the time, "I swear to God" to emphasize they are telling the truth about something. I have never heard that from an Amish person. If I did, it would be very unusual.

 

[D4fan]

What are the different "sects" of Amish? Low Amish? What others? Thanks!

As I define a sect, it would be a "segment of it's own kind". Each sect would have their own membership tally, and most do not allow other non sectarian members to fellowship closely or partake in communion with their sect.

So by that definition, there are literally more than a 100 different anabaptist sects. By anabaptist , I place significant historical context to groups arising out of the south western Germany, Holland or Switzerland. When I say I am ex Amish, what I define as leaving is when I decided I did not want church government to decide for me what my external life would look like. I am still closely affiliated with "anabaptist light", choosing to work through a Grace Brethren affiliated church. Its interesting to me, that the Amish largely have a "supreme elder" or Bishop in charge of deciding community life and rules to abide by. Mennonites and Brethren groups have largely worked out of a General Conference type authority, where local church elders get their authority via conference decisions. The Grace Brethren have essentially blown up the conference model as too many irreconcilable differences have came into question ( Female pastorship, how to treat same sex relationships, divorce and remarriage etc.). So now the local church I attend gets its direction from only the elders of the church (no one man one vote here) , and the church elects the elders. It is a system that suits me well so long as the central message of the elders is freedom to live as you choose, except for a few precise details of faith. (Acts chapter 15 demonstrates this model). In essentials there must be unity, but in all else there must be freedom.

 

[IVCguy]

Once, a rather playboy of a man shared with me he had been dating this certain attractive Amish girl. I always thought she was modest and well disciplined. He shared with me her only rule was she could not take her prayer covering off. So, according to him, they had wild passionate sex, never took that covering off, but sure damaged a bunch of them.

Going back to the Amish women thing... I know my friend said some of the Amish women are the freakiest you'll ever find. Which can be a good thing or a bad thing. They really didn't have a lot of boundaries they weren't willing to cross.

Gotta say, my experience with Amish women is that the vast, vast majority of them are chaste and modest. And I have spent thousands of hours with them behind closed doors with them in various stages of undress, but I was dealing with them in a professional context and I'm not THAT GUY who is looking for sexual opportunities. So, factor that in.

I have certainly known some who were neither chaste or modest, but that's not a large group. We get back to the idea that they are just people who are subject to everything every other woman is prone to, vulnerable to, in need of, and capable of.

But when I hear these stories, I don't doubt them, I just think they need more perspective and context. And I suspect there is this element of male fantasy involved where they are Harrisson Ford and Kelly McGillis shows them her ta ta's. Lol.

I suspect in reality that if a guy wants to seduce an Amish woman (at least around here) he would have a ton of failures before he would find a taker. FWIW

 

[IVCguy]

What are the different "sects" of Amish? Low Amish? What others? Thanks!

I like to put them on a continuum. It's hard to visually do with this format on this forum. But consider this simple one

|--‐-----‐-----------------------------------------------------------|
Low. - - - - - - - - - - - - ->High

Swartzentruber - Old Order - New Order

So the "low" are the strictest groups. The "high" are the less strict (still very strict by our standards). Between the Swartentrubers and Old Order there are a dozen different sects. A few would be the Dan Church/Danners and New Order Tobe. Between the Old Order and New Order would be another dozen sects. The highest Amish are the New New Order who have electricity in the house but no cars.

See? Clear as mud.

 

[IVCguy]

He shared with me her only rule was she could not take her prayer covering off. So, according to him, they had wild passionate sex, never took that covering off, but sure damaged a bunch of them.

The woman's covering is a massive topic that requires more time than I have today. But I will try to address it next week. But D4 fan should be able to lay it out if he has time.

 

[ogealbhain]

I like to put them on a continuum. It's hard to visually do with this format on this forum. But consider this simple one

|--‐-----‐-----------------------------------------------------------|
Low. - - - - - - - - - - - - - High

Swartzentruber - Old Order - New Order

So the "low" are the strictest groups. The "high" are the less strict (still very strict by our standards). Between the Swartentrubers and Old Order there are a dozen different sects. A few would be the Dan Church/Danners and New Order Tobe. Between the Old Order and New Order would be another dozen sects. The highest Amish are the New New Order who have electricity in the house but no cars.

See? Clear as mud.

Thanks to both of you. Very interesting.

 

[IVCguy]

The covering and its teaching are very, very important to plain people. It is a "distinctive" - and all kinds of sects tend to emphasize whatever makes them different from other denominations.

The teaching is taken from one passage of scripture - I Corinthians 11:5-16. The basics of it is that Paul is teaching that there is an order of authority: The Father-Christ-Man-Woman. A woman should not pray or "prophesy" without her head covered. He says she might as well cut all of her hair off (which he says is "shameful"). The prostitutes in Corinth and other Hellenistic cities cut their hair short for easy identification. This may be why Paul calls it "shameful" and some think he is saying that a Christian woman should never allow herself to be confused with a prostitute by her outward appearance. He says the woman should have a "symbol of authority" on her head to show her submission to the authorities over her and "because of the angels". He says that the order of authority does not negate the fact that men and women are interdependent on each other. A man's long hair is a dishonor, but to a woman, it is her glory and her hair is a covering. Anticipating that some would disagree with him on this topic, he points out that women wearing coverings is the custom of all the churches.

This passage is one of the more difficult and contentious in the New Testament as to both what it exactly means, how it should be applied, and to whether this was instruction for that time and culture or whether it was something for all time, across all cultures.

The plain people derive the following principles from this passage: 1) It is instruction for all people at all times 2) women must have their heads covered to pray, and since they are to "pray without ceasing" they must wear a covering at all wakeful moments. 3) Women should never cut their hair short. 4) Only a husband should see his wife's "glory" (hair down) so women should put their hair up under their covering in public for modesty purposes. 5) By wearing a covering, a woman is testifying that she is in voluntary submission to the authorities over her in the home and church and to God. 6) The "because of the angels" is believed to represent that there is a level of divine protection from harm that comes to women with wearing the covering.

Do the Amish believe that a woman must wear a covering to receive salvation? As a general rule, yes. Certainly the lower Amish believe this and the higher Amish do as well with some caveats. Some would believe that they must wear their covering to be saved because they have the teaching about it, but they feel that women who haven't had that teaching are judged differently. Those higher Amish who believe that salvation is through a "new birth" experience would tend to say that a believing woman who has the correct teaching will wear a covering as an expression of their faith and obedience, but they would leave open the possibility that a born-again woman without the teaching is saved, but in error due to ignorance, not disobedience. A very few would see the covering as a conviction and not a Christian life or salvation essential.

There are 100 questions that can spin out of all of that, but that's the basics of it.

 

[D4fan]

The covering and its teaching are very, very important to plain people. It is a "distinctive" - and all kinds of sects tend to emphasize whatever makes them different from other denominations.

The teaching is taken from one passage of scripture - I Corinthians 11:5-16. The basics of it is that Paul is teaching that there is an order of authority: The Father-Christ-Man-Woman. A woman should not pray or "prophesy" without her head covered. He says she might as well cut all of her hair off (which he says is "shameful"). The prostitutes in Corinth and other Hellenistic cities cut their hair short for easy identification. This may be why Paul calls it "shameful" and some think he is saying that a Christian woman should never allow herself to be confused with a prostitute by her outward appearance. He says the woman should have a "symbol of authority" on her head to show her submission to the authorities over her and "because of the angels". He says that the order of authority does not negate the fact that men and women are interdependent on each other. A man's long hair is a dishonor, but to a woman, it is her glory and her hair is a covering. Anticipating that some would disagree with him on this topic, he points out that women wearing coverings is the custom of all the churches.

This passage is one of the more difficult and contentious in the New Testament as to both what it exactly means, how it should be applied, and to whether this was instruction for that time and culture or whether it was something for all time, across all cultures.

The plain people derive the following principles from this passage: 1) It is instruction for all people at all times 2) women must have their heads covered to pray, and since they are to "pray without ceasing" they must wear a covering at all wakeful moments. 3) Women should never cut their hair short. 4) Only a husband should see his wife's "glory" (hair down) so women should put their hair up under their covering in public for modesty purposes. 5) By wearing a covering, a woman is testifying that she is in voluntary submission to the authorities over her in the home and church and to God. 6) The "because of the angels" is believed to represent that there is a level of divine protection from harm that comes to women with wearing the covering.

Do the Amish believe that a woman must wear a covering to receive salvation? As a general rule, yes. Certainly the lower Amish believe this and the higher Amish do as well with some caveats. Some would believe that they must wear their covering to be saved because they have the teaching about it, but they feel that women who haven't had that teaching are judged differently. Those higher Amish who believe that salvation is through a "new birth" experience would tend to say that a believing woman who has the correct teaching will wear a covering as an expression of their faith and obedience, but they would leave open the possibility that a born-again woman without the teaching is saved, but in error due to ignorance, not disobedience. A very few would see the covering as a conviction and not a Christian life or salvation essential.

There are 100 questions that can spin out of all of that, but that's the basics of it.

Very well covered.


The wearing of the prayer covering can become a psychological obsession IMO much like any other thing we deem as protective in our life such as sleep, diet or exercise. My mother was so concerned about always being ready for the Lords return that she would also sleep in a covering, hair still up.
I think it is also important to make the distinction between the bonnet that covers the covering, and the covering itself. The bonnet generally is seen as not a sacred article of faith, but is deemed practical as a covering from the elements of nature and protects the "prayer covering".

My take on why the plain people place significant emphasis on the prayer covering, is because they have largely agreed the Bible is to be interpreted in its most literal sense. So here in I Corinthians Paul lays out what I believe is a message to the women of Corinth, but he does say all the churches "practice it, generally ". But the anabaptist did not want to debate over commands of custom vs commands of spiritual significance, so they adopted it I believe baseing their decision primarily on the phrase "because of the angels", as their primary emphasis to keep a command that is not centered just on culture.

The mens hat. Plain people almost all wear hats, and some see it as a practical matter, some as a message speaking to the world of who they are, set apart for God's purpose. The group I grew up in, the men would remove their hat upon stepping inside a building, especially into a house of worship. They would never have a hat on, even outside, if discussing scripture or praying. Just as women were to be covered to pray, the man is to be uncovered. This is not universally true among all sects of Amish.

Some, will sit in a house of worship with their hat on through the first (ingathering hymn) and only remove their hat for the duration of the praying and sermon.

So I guess my synopsis is, there is not universal agreement between Amish sects about how to properly practice the wearing of the hat for men, or the wearing of the prayer covering and bonnet for women. Some dress their non baptized children in the same clothing style as they wear, while other groups dress them as common English until following a profession of the individuals faith displayed publicly by the act of baptism.

 

[IVCguy]

Girls who leave the Amish will very often wear some kind of covering when her parents are around just to not upset them. I have seen some of them wear some kind of, at least small, covering until their parents died.

So, it is hard to overstate how important that covering is to them in terms of religious belief and practice, showing an outward appearance of separation from the world, and in terms of parents having some comfort that their daughters have a "hope" of being accepted by God.

The Amish coverings cover the bulk of the head and are white. If you see them with a split-bun shape on the top, they are from PA. People ask all the time the meaning or significance of the strings - tied or cut, but there is none.

The covering varies from church to church, but as a general rule, they will be larger and white in the stricter sects and smaller and sometimes black or white among Mennonites. I have seen some as small as 2" in diameter pinned on a hair bun. Some groups wear something like scarves.

The black bonnet D4 is talking about is worn over the covering when women are going to church, a wedding, or a funeral. While there isn't a religious reason for it, it is an Amish church rule and tradition. Most Amish women I know hate the thing and openly complain about them, especially in hot weather. But like everything else, church rules vary on this.

My Baptist grandmother (born 1896 died 1995) wore a netting on her head at church only, as did most of the old women. I thought it was some kind of fashion accessory. When I saw the Amish women and their coverings, I asked Grandma about it. She said her mother instructed her to always put something on her head when she went to church, so she did all of her life. But she didn't pass that on to her 9 daughters and there was no teaching like that in the church. I found that very interesting.

 

[Auggie]

A counseling center in Dundee offers mental health services to Amish and other Plain people

There are only three residential mental healthcare facilities serving Plain people, Amish and some Mennonites, in the U.S., and one is in Dundee, Ohio. Learn about how one Amish man serves as a liaison to others in the Plain community for services at the in-house program Woodside Rest.

www.ideastream.org

 

[IVCguy]

A counseling center in Dundee offers mental health services to Amish and other Plain people

There are only three residential mental healthcare facilities serving Plain people, Amish and some Mennonites, in the U.S., and one is in Dundee, Ohio. Learn about how one Amish man serves as a liaison to others in the Plain community for services at the in-house program Woodside Rest.

www.ideastream.org

Just for clarity - Springhaven is just south of Mt. Eaton in Wayne County. Dundee is a village in western Tuscarawas Co. It gets confusing because of mailing addresses. I suspect the post office that delivers mail to the facility is in Dundee, but the location is a few miles from Mt. Eaton.

But Springhaven is valuable because it has licensed mental health professionals on staff. I have used them as a resource many times in a referral context.

The Old Order have a counselling home near Trail (it has a Pa Dutch name so the spelling is difficult: "Huffenegn Heim") that is staffed with untrained Amish counsellors and house parents. You hear a lot about people with mental struggles going to a facility in Pa and another in Indiana.

There are a lot of pitiful souls in these mental health places. A lot of girls who have suffered sexual and/or physical abuse.

I had this 16 YO Old Order Amish girl who was severely depressed about 15 years ago. I have never seen someone so low. I immediately suspected she had been abused, probably sexually - and I was correct. But it took her several years to tell me. During that time I begged her parents to get her professional help, but they felt psychology and psychiatry was the realm of Satan. I actually almost agree with them in certain respects, but when you have someone who is depressed with suicidal ideation or has a severe mental illness, they do a good job of helping those people in a lot of cases. That girl later told me that she used to get up in the middle of the night, walk to the phone booth, call my office, and listen to my answering machine message several times because she "wanted to hear a caring voice."

She eventually alleged that she had been raped multiple times by an Amish healer her parents took her to. These crimes occurred in Tusc Co so I reported them to the sheriff's dept over there. A week later the detective called me back to tell me that the accused had completely confessed. I was like, "Great! So he is in jail?" He said he wasn't because when he had interviewed him, the guy was on his deathbed, eaten up with cancer, and was within days of dying. I saw his obit in the paper a week later. Justice.

Anyway, at 17 she had a complete breakdown and she ended up in the psych ward at a hospital in Canton - which, I think, saved her life. She got on some drugs and had some therapy which stabilized her. Her psychiatrist was an Indian doctor who didn't know anything about the Amish, but he cared about his patients. He called me every other day with questions. One day he called and told me that he doesn't think he can get her completely well without removing her from the home. I told him that was not going to happen - that there was no way the parents would agree to that, so he had to figure out how to keep her fairly stable until she turned 18. This guy found her a plain home in Pa with a licensed psychologist that oversaw the care for the patients, and the day she turned 18 I went to pick her up and put her on a bus.

I didn't see her for 5 months, but one day she popped in the office. She didn't have to say anything. The smile and joy on her face said it all. She was healed - or a good piece down that road. She moved to the Carolinas, got her GED, and got a scholarship to go to nursing school. She went on to get a master's degree and is working as a nurse practitioner. She pops in once or twice a year and I enjoy getting her big hugs. Amish people don't hug much and certainly don't hug opposite sex English people. She isn't Amish now, but there were so many times when she was a miserable teen that I wanted to hug her and tell her that she was loved. Now I can whenever the chance presents. Lol.

 

[D4fan]

You ever watch the movie "For Richer or Poorer"?

If you have, how did you feel about the overall portrayal of the Amish?

 

[Tesoro]

My Favorite Amish band!!!

 

[IVCguy]

You ever watch the movie "For Richer or Poorer"?

If you have, how did you feel about the overall portrayal of the Amish?

Is that the one with Tim Allen and Christie Alley? It's been a long time since I saw that. If it's the movie I think it is, it is a comedy. I guess I don't mind comedic takes on Amish themes because it isn't being presented as serious. And - there are some very funny things about the Amish. One of my greatest pleasures is hearing Amish people telling Amish jokes!

I get my bloomers in a twist more over documentaries and "reality" shows that basically lie about the Amish to their audience and present their lies as factual. The best documentary on the Amish I have seen is one done by PBS maybe 20 years ago. It didn't seem to have an agenda and just laid it out in an educative way - even getting into the differences among the types of Amish. The best reality show about the Amish was "Amish Out of Order." An ex low Amish guy in Missouri (Mose Gingerich, I believe his name was) assisted low Amish kids in leaving - provided them with homes, jobs, helped them get their drivers license, etc. The show would follow several kids from the point of running away and their experiences in the English world. Surprisingly, about half of them would go back to their low Amish homes, usually because they missed their brothers and sisters too much.

I saw the opening 15 minutes of "Breaking Amish" before I turned it off. Jeremiah was adopted by a New Order family a few miles from my house. In the opening scene, he is out in the yard of (not his) house, toiling away mowing the grass with an old-time, non-engine, reel mower. I laughed. NO Amish have very nice walk behind or stand-on mowers. Only the low Amish use the reel mowers. But here is Jeremiah straining and sweating with this reel mower and complaining about how hard Amish life is. So, that was an immediate lie and misrepresentation. In the second scene, his "girlfriend" shows up for a conversation about whether Jeremiah is going to marry her and join the Amish church or go to NYC to sow his wild oats. It's a weekday, but this girl has on a Sunday dress with white apron. She has on mascara, makeup, and you can see that her earlobes are pierced. I told my wife, "I'm more Amish than that girl." Lol. Of course, Jeremiah chooses NYC and she sadly watches him walk away. All of that was a total pile of nonsense. Lol. And that's all I ever watched - but of course I heard all about it from others, aghast at the lies Jeremiah was putting out there about the people who took him in.

Hollywood just has to muck things up. If you take a movie like "Witness" - it's a good story and there is a lot that is fairly accurate about the PA Amish. But they put some stuff in there that make you think, "An Amish man or woman wouldn't think like that or do that or say that."

I like to caution people that anything they see on TV about the Amish is most likely pure trash. There are a few examples of good information the media has presented, but I haven't see any lately. I don't mind comedy with an Amish theme as long as it isn't ridiculing and debasing these people or their culture.

 

[IVCguy]

The Encore Hotel in Berlin has the Amish Country Theater attached to it. If you have ever been to the Comedy Barn in Pigeon Forge, it's like that.

The first show I saw there was hilarious - and there were several dozen Amish in attendance. They did this bit where they acted like there was an evening Amish newscast with Amish anchors. One of them says with a strong Dutchy accent, "Let's go to Jonas out in the field" - and there is Jonas standing there alone in a corn field. He gives a traffic update and describes a traffic jam of buggies, tourists, bicycles, trucks and it was gut-busting.
But I did wonder if the show might be offensive to Amish people. I know the people that run that theater so I asked one of them about that and was told that, of course, there are some in the area that have no sense of humor, won't see the show, but assume they are trying to ridicule and embarrass them, but before they do a new show with new writing and jokes, they screen it with several hundred Amish folks, and ask them if there is anything they think ought to be taken out or re-worked. Usually there isn't, but several times they have had to take something out or edit it.

 

[D4fan]

I may let you be the guru!

I know the Holmes Co situation best, but there are differences in other communities within Ohio and other states. Holmes Co is unique in that it probably has almost every group on the continuum.

You raise a slew of issues. I will take one at a time.

Was curious about the Holmes county Amish community and their courtship practices?

Do they do bundling?

If so, do they use the board down the center of the bed?

I have heard many groups are moving away from bed courtship due to failure of kids to keep their hands to themselves.

 

[IVCguy]

Was curious about the Holmes county Amish community and their courtship practices?

Do they do bundling?

If so, do they use the board down the center of the bed?

I have heard many groups are moving away from bed courtship due to failure of kids to keep their hands to themselves.

Oh boy. I will have to break it down to 3 categories: New Order, Old Order, and "Low" (Swartzies and such).

New Order courtship involves lovebirds finding each other via singings, youth group, sporting events, friends, etc. There is a matchmaking of a kind at weddings where friends will pair a guy and girl to sit together at the reception because they think they would make a good couple. They date by horse and buggy, physical contact is discouraged. If a boyfriend would spend the night, it would be with his girlfriend's brothers. Bundling is outrageous to the NO and would be absolutely forbidden.

Old Order kids meet in many of the same ways, but at 18, most of the boys buy vehicles, get English haircuts, buy stylish clothes, etc. Their girlfriends may or may not make that outward change. Bundling has fallen out of favor with most of the Old Order because of the outside criticism of the hypocrisy involved in it. But I'm going to guess that more than half of the OO parents take a permissive attitude with their dating age kids and overlook whatever they are doing while the rest would be more like the New Order. If OO kids want to have sex, they have the opportunity to do that without the charade of bundling. They can drive to town and rent a room. There are party houses around.

So, on the whole, there isn't a lot of bundling going on in the NO and OO. It's not practical in the one case and firmly prohibited in the other.

Bundling was a tradition in 18th century America. You can see a cute representation of it in the movie "Patriot" with Heath Ledger. The boys were sown into a bag with just their head out. The Amish picked this tradition up, but somewhere they lost the bag and went with a board. Then they did away with the board. The cat has been getting out of the bag and the board has been crossed over since this tradition began. Putting a young man and woman in bed together for a night and expecting nothing to happen is nuts.

The low Amish still practice bundling full force - and I have had to take care of a handful of unwed mothers as a result. The Swartzies believe they exist to hold onto every tradition and maintain the most strict rules. But they ignore that the bundling tradition promotes fornication. Lol. It's a head scratcher, but it makes sense to them.

 

[D4fan]

Oh boy. I will have to break it down to 3 categories: New Order, Old Order, and "Low" (Swartzies and such).

New Order courtship involves lovebirds finding each other via singings, youth group, sporting events, friends, etc. There is a matchmaking of a kind at weddings where friends will pair a guy and girl to sit together at the reception because they think they would make a good couple. They date by horse and buggy, physical contact is discouraged. If a boyfriend would spend the night, it would be with his girlfriend's brothers. Bundling is outrageous to the NO and would be absolutely forbidden.

Old Order kids meet in many of the same ways, but at 18, most of the boys buy vehicles, get English haircuts, buy stylish clothes, etc. Their girlfriends may or may not make that outward change. Bundling has fallen out of favor with most of the Old Order because of the outside criticism of the hypocrisy involved in it. But I'm going to guess that more than half of the OO parents take a permissive attitude with their dating age kids and overlook whatever they are doing while the rest would be more like the New Order. If OO kids want to have sex, they have the opportunity to do that without the charade of bundling. They can drive to town and rent a room. There are party houses around.

So, on the whole, there isn't a lot of bundling going on in the NO and OO. It's not practical in the one case and firmly prohibited in the other.

Bundling was a tradition in 18th century America. You can see a cute representation of it in the movie "Patriot" with Heath Ledger. The boys were sown into a bag with just their head out. The Amish picked this tradition up, but somewhere they lost the bag and went with a board. Then they did away with the board. The cat has been getting out of the bag and the board has been crossed over since this tradition began. Putting a young man and woman in bed together for a night and expecting nothing to happen is nuts.

The low Amish still practice bundling full force - and I have had to take care of a handful of unwed mothers as a result. The Swartzies believe they exist to hold onto every tradition and maintain the most strict rules. But they ignore that the bundling tradition promotes fornication. Lol. It's a head scratcher, but it makes sense to them.

Thanks, all good information.

I was reading last night about the public consummation of the marriage vows, as one particular group requires the newly wed couple to spend the night at the home of the bride and often give them zero privacy.

That led to something I was not aware of, when Martin Luther decided to leave his position in the Catholic church and get married, he chose a noble lady, and two weeks prior to the wedding ceremony they had his best friend witness their consummation , something that would never happen today from a theological perspective. It would be viewed as fornication coupled with voyerism. There were reasons Luther thought this was the best way to protect himself from enemies, but is quite different than we hold acceptable today.

I also read that Jonathan Edwards was particularly resplnsonsible for creating outrage against bed courting. Everytime someone has a good idea, someone else has to go ruining it.

 

[IVCguy]

Thanks, all good information.

I was reading last night about the public consummation of the marriage vows, as one particular group requires the newly wed couple to spend the night at the home of the bride and often give them zero privacy.

That led to something I was not aware of, when Martin Luther decided to leave his position in the Catholic church and get married, he chose a noble lady, and two weeks prior to the wedding ceremony they had his best friend witness their consummation , something that would never happen today from a theological perspective. It would be viewed as fornication coupled with voyerism. There were reasons Luther thought this was the best way to protect himself from enemies, but is quite different than we hold acceptable today.

I also read that Jonathan Edwards was particularly resplnsonsible for creating outrage against bed courting. Everytime someone has a good idea, someone else has to go ruining it.

Martin Luther was an amazing and great man of faith - with a very healthy sex drive. Lol. I suppose living in celibacy for a long period of time will do that to you!

Johnathan Edwards was not a preacher that would tolerate nonsense and he had the oratory skills to create outrage about whatever he wanted!

When I first came to Holmes Co, I never heard an Old Order person talk about being born-again. Their hope was that getting baptized and joining church, generally obeying church rules, and being as good a person as they could, that they might make it to heaven.

But about 25-30 years ago I met a young Old Order minister (who later became a bishop) who asked me what church I attended. I told him, "I'm a Baptist. I hope you won't hold that against me." He said, "Well, the important thing is that you are born-again." You could have knocked me over with a feather.

He went on to make sure I understood that his kids would not be participating in traditions like rumshpringah, bed-dating, etc. He more or less led a revival among a good number of OO districts. Awesome man.