winbypin
Well-known member
You aware of competitive balance? Maybe give that some time to see how it will work?
Public vs. Private
- Thread starter DB135
- Start date
When the privates draw / recruit all-stars teams from the entire region and even country in some cases, even teams that have their best "community" group, coincidentally, going through the program, get blown out like the game I originally mentioned.
When a public has that kind of talent and goes undefeated, only to be blown out by an all-star team, it's time for the state to take steps to stop that practice or place these teams in their own division.
In summer BB we qualified for the Connie Mack state tournament at Cene Park with the Massillon varsity team. We played in leagues that were mainly community teams, as well as ones that were made up primarily of all-star teams.
We came close to qualifying for the regionals at Amelia, where Midland was the host team and perennial national qualifier / champion. The situation became worse as you moved up in the tournaments, as far as the all-star team composition. From all-star teams based on regional talent you went to teams like Midland that drew players from all over the country.
When Taiwan was being touted as having surpassed us in our national past time, a expose was done in Sports Illustrated revealing their teams were school based, practicing all year and drawing from much larger areas.
When I wrote Creighton Hale, the LL executive director, about the "problem", all he could respond was how successful and popular LL BB had become since Taiwan's success. Taiwan was finally suspended, till they complied with the rules but their teams success in leagues where teams were composed like theirs were was no greater than any other program.
I support any program using similar means (open enrollment) to even the playing field.
Those that mock teams like Massillon's tradition because they currently can't compete against these all-star teams are amusing. If Massillon uses open enrollment to even the playing field, these trolls mock them like their fans are so ignorant, that they would accept there is a chance to compete with these all-star teams with traditional community teams!
To try and draw an analogy to poll champions (where these titles were as legitimate as playoff ones), because the polls reflected "on the field" records against all challengers to those titles. Any team winning a poll title was challenged by other schools and scheduled, which validated that title. Massillon played in the best conference in the state and would scrimmage challengers they couldn't schedule. Their schedule's quality (massillontigers.com) unquestionably validates those titles. Check Massillon schedule and poll titles and tell me "ANY" team that challenged those titles, that they ducked and didn't schedule within the next few seasons.
You think Massillon's coach, who coached and won the state title under the current conditions doesn't get it, as do the Massillon administrators? Nate Moore is evening the playing field and will break through the roadblocks that are stopping Massillon's winning a state title. He is smart enough to see what the other coaches didn't or ignored. Previously Massillon went to the state with a few transfers and an outstanding group coming through the program.
Moore knows what it takes to be competitive every year (this years schedule is a meat grinder), if you didn't have the talent to be competitive, otherwise it's another building block, on the road to a state title.
No one with any sense would criticize him because he is doing what it takes, to be competitive in the current system!
To see Massillon go to three consecutive finals and still be short of the requisite talent, to not be out classed by these all-star teams tells you it's time to even the playing field, in this out of control situation. Those games tell you what kind of team you need to "harvest" to be competitive with the all-star teams.
We get it! Don't try to troll the tired argument about not being loyal to your community's kids. Show us where these all-star teams are yearly drawn from a traditional community and that's it's possible to consistently compete with them with those teams. These players aren't denied the chance to transfer and play elsewhere because their parents are aware of the competitive situation in state high school sports.
When a public has that kind of talent and goes undefeated, only to be blown out by an all-star team, it's time for the state to take steps to stop that practice or place these teams in their own division.
In summer BB we qualified for the Connie Mack state tournament at Cene Park with the Massillon varsity team. We played in leagues that were mainly community teams, as well as ones that were made up primarily of all-star teams.
We came close to qualifying for the regionals at Amelia, where Midland was the host team and perennial national qualifier / champion. The situation became worse as you moved up in the tournaments, as far as the all-star team composition. From all-star teams based on regional talent you went to teams like Midland that drew players from all over the country.
When Taiwan was being touted as having surpassed us in our national past time, a expose was done in Sports Illustrated revealing their teams were school based, practicing all year and drawing from much larger areas.
When I wrote Creighton Hale, the LL executive director, about the "problem", all he could respond was how successful and popular LL BB had become since Taiwan's success. Taiwan was finally suspended, till they complied with the rules but their teams success in leagues where teams were composed like theirs were was no greater than any other program.
I support any program using similar means (open enrollment) to even the playing field.
Those that mock teams like Massillon's tradition because they currently can't compete against these all-star teams are amusing. If Massillon uses open enrollment to even the playing field, these trolls mock them like their fans are so ignorant, that they would accept there is a chance to compete with these all-star teams with traditional community teams!
To try and draw an analogy to poll champions (where these titles were as legitimate as playoff ones), because the polls reflected "on the field" records against all challengers to those titles. Any team winning a poll title was challenged by other schools and scheduled, which validated that title. Massillon played in the best conference in the state and would scrimmage challengers they couldn't schedule. Their schedule's quality (massillontigers.com) unquestionably validates those titles. Check Massillon schedule and poll titles and tell me "ANY" team that challenged those titles, that they ducked and didn't schedule within the next few seasons.
You think Massillon's coach, who coached and won the state title under the current conditions doesn't get it, as do the Massillon administrators? Nate Moore is evening the playing field and will break through the roadblocks that are stopping Massillon's winning a state title. He is smart enough to see what the other coaches didn't or ignored. Previously Massillon went to the state with a few transfers and an outstanding group coming through the program.
Moore knows what it takes to be competitive every year (this years schedule is a meat grinder), if you didn't have the talent to be competitive, otherwise it's another building block, on the road to a state title.
No one with any sense would criticize him because he is doing what it takes, to be competitive in the current system!
To see Massillon go to three consecutive finals and still be short of the requisite talent, to not be out classed by these all-star teams tells you it's time to even the playing field, in this out of control situation. Those games tell you what kind of team you need to "harvest" to be competitive with the all-star teams.
We get it! Don't try to troll the tired argument about not being loyal to your community's kids. Show us where these all-star teams are yearly drawn from a traditional community and that's it's possible to consistently compete with them with those teams. These players aren't denied the chance to transfer and play elsewhere because their parents are aware of the competitive situation in state high school sports.
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Like I said I think that private supporters come from a place of love for their school, so I try not to be rude when having a conversation. But, if you can’t see the inherent advantage of getting to draw kids in from an unlimited sized school “district” I am not really sure what to say?!
Judging by the aviator there is a Warren JFK fan, so I will use them as an example. The city of Warren has about 40,000 people. Let’s say there are 200 kids walking the hallways of that school, I don’t care if they have been there since kindergarten, they still came from an area with that many people, which is a huge advantage.
The entire county of Mercer in the heart of the MAC country also has about 40,000 people. Let’s say Marion Local also has 200 kids walking the halls of there HS, do they get to draw students from that same 40k populated area, well only if they allow open enrollment and they would still need to entice students from 6 different school districts to come there instead.
Do both of these school have the same number of students - yes.
Should that automatically place them in the same division - opinions vary
Judging by the aviator there is a Warren JFK fan, so I will use them as an example. The city of Warren has about 40,000 people. Let’s say there are 200 kids walking the hallways of that school, I don’t care if they have been there since kindergarten, they still came from an area with that many people, which is a huge advantage.
The entire county of Mercer in the heart of the MAC country also has about 40,000 people. Let’s say Marion Local also has 200 kids walking the halls of there HS, do they get to draw students from that same 40k populated area, well only if they allow open enrollment and they would still need to entice students from 6 different school districts to come there instead.
Do both of these school have the same number of students - yes.
Should that automatically place them in the same division - opinions vary
Jaws31
It had to be done
Regardless of how big an area a school is located in the total # of students enrolled is what matters and that is exactly what the divisions are for. JFK has about 75 boys in the high school. This years graduating class has 30-35 total kids in it. Should they be moved up just because they are located in a city with a bigger population? Certainly not. Competitive balance was put in place to add numbers for kids that don't come from their feeder school. You can't set divisions based off the potential of the kids that could be there, they must be set off of the bodies in the school.
That is certainly one opinion and In this case opinions can’t be wrong, but, I just think most people view it differently.
I would also say that yes, schools can be held to a standard for for their potential. The city league schools are placed in D1 and D2 because of the number of kids “enrolled” in that school. Are that number of kids in the hallways? Heavens no! But they are still assigned that number.
Blue Jay Fan
Well-known member
Shawnee sends their regards. Dayton Chaminade and Columbus desales, too.
No, I didn't, I wasn't much of an athlete.... As a freelance sportswriter in the Toledo area, I'm just sick of going to games and seeing private schools win state championships time and time again while playing by a different set of rules and people like you defending their recruiting and resources and pretending that public schools with open enrollment are just as guilty. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of public schools (i.e. Toledo Whitmer) that recruit, but many of them can't compete with the St. Francis de Sales and Central Catholics of the world.
winbypin
Well-known member
Good thing marion local has handled.their "disadvantages" so well.
winbypin
Well-known member
Oops. CJ and Desales are.both private.schools. CJ lost to desales even. Did you even bother to think before you posted this?
They aren't complaining. They just lined up and gave it their best.
winbypin
Well-known member
Privates and public schools have the same rules. That's just silly.
Stirred not Shaken
Well-known member
If all it takes is hard work and culture why do the private schools recruit for. Just go with kids that live in your local parish or district and quit the recruiting, just work hard.
winbypin
Well-known member
They have to recruit students to keep their doors open. They don't get a set of students automatically each year based on where mom and dad choose to live.
Make no mistake, private schools work hard too.
Jaws31
It had to be done
Im sure you are an unbiased reporter to boot. You really don't have a clue to what goes on at OE schools or what really goes on at Privates for that matter either.
Not to mention they have to convince parents to spend $50,000+ on something they can get for free.
Stirred not Shaken
Well-known member
They don't have to recruit, the school should be able sell itself if it provides a high quality education. I live in ML school district, property prices are through the roof ( because of demand ) mostly because of the school system, no recruiting needed. Same with New Bremen, Minster, ST. Henry, and other area schools.
Jaws31
It had to be done
The schools do sell themselves but many don't realize just how affordable that it actually can be. Most parents don't realize that privates are a viable option. You cannot compare the MAC schools to most privates. Completely different demographics. The MACs are in wealthy, predominantly white, farming communities. The privates are usually in more urban areas. Its apples and oranges.
winbypin
Well-known member
No, private schools have to recruit to survive. The school "selling itself" is part of recruiting. Legal recruiting that is.
Strong public school districts also recruit. Parents want to live in and raise their kids in places like ML. Good education. Good sports and other extracurriculars make schools attractive to people. ML works hard to keep their reputation high to continue to attract families.
Jaws31
It had to be done
Again, go back and look at the academic performance of most Privates. The education is superior to many of the publics. I know I wouldn't want my kids to have the free education that is offered at a large percentage of schools in this state.
Let’s be honest about this... the education is superior because the kids walking those hallways are far more educatable, to invent a word, than they are in many public districts.
Jaws31
It had to be done
I would agree. Educatable
queencitybuckeye
Well-known member
If it's free, I want the $7K per year in spend to fund my school district back.
queencitybuckeye
Well-known member
Raylan_Givens
Always right, unless I'm wrong
Spend a lot of time in Wayne Co and always get a chuckle at how some of the folks there act toward parochial schools. They live in a bubble where every town/school for miles around is basically the same except for the laundry their kids wear.
Close friends live in Akron suburbs have young kids and are already worrying about what private school they can 1) get their kids into & 2) afford.
These folks live less than 25 miles apart and might as well be on different planets as far as how they view school systems. But neither of them are wrong, they're just dealing with the environment around them.
I'm biased because I kinda like it here, but having lived in several other states, Ohio's sports system is pretty basic & effective, especially in football. 484 teams (+/-) play the sport & 7 win state titles. That's pretty selective. Public schools gotta expect (& plan) to beat a parochial school somewhere along the way to win one. Parochials have to understand that their system is going to chap those communities that have once in a generation talent get beat by a (seemingly) random assembly of talent from an area.
Close friends live in Akron suburbs have young kids and are already worrying about what private school they can 1) get their kids into & 2) afford.
These folks live less than 25 miles apart and might as well be on different planets as far as how they view school systems. But neither of them are wrong, they're just dealing with the environment around them.
I'm biased because I kinda like it here, but having lived in several other states, Ohio's sports system is pretty basic & effective, especially in football. 484 teams (+/-) play the sport & 7 win state titles. That's pretty selective. Public schools gotta expect (& plan) to beat a parochial school somewhere along the way to win one. Parochials have to understand that their system is going to chap those communities that have once in a generation talent get beat by a (seemingly) random assembly of talent from an area.
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Stirred not Shaken
Well-known member
MAC schools compete against private schools in lower divisions not too many future " pros " in these lower division private schools, more likely to get the kid who maybe could start for a bigger school but not be the star of that team. Different sport but the MAC could have put an all time MAC team together and still would have likely loss to the current AVSM All Star team. The bigger public D -1 schools recruit to compete with these All Star teams however the WBL schools ( Lima Shawnee ) for the most part do not. CB helped in football but no way should AVSM have been in D -2 in bball that was a joke.
WJ-OSU-STEELERS
Well-known member
Raylan - Appeoximately 700 Ohio High Schools (public & private total) compete in football.
Division I = Top 72
Division II thru VII is divided equally with the remaining schools or approximately 105 schools per division
Division I = Top 72
Division II thru VII is divided equally with the remaining schools or approximately 105 schools per division
Yeah, you're right, I clearly have no idea how it works. Catholic schools win at a much higher rate than do the public schools, but that's merely a coincidence. Stop making excuses for the private schools. I've seen Central Catholic poach from the Toledo City League and Clay for decades, and people like you continue to defend it.
I'm not going to pretend I'm unbiased about this, but for God's sake, stop making excuses for the rich and powerful. Did you know that if we didn't have CB, Central Catholic would be a Division IV school in football? Think about that for a second. And Central's nickname in the Toledo area is Central Public on account of the fact that many of their students, especially the athletes, go to school there for free.
God forbid poorer black families in the City of Toledo have a choice other than the public Toledo City Schools. I wonder if Wayne Local, Ottawa Hills, Springfield Local, Sylvania and Washington Local, all closed enrollment, would be willing to go open enrollment and provide these poorer kids a safe environment for their education.
RollingTrain
Well-known member
At least they actually moved. That’s a fairly big commitment